V8 Ford Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Answer: He's not. He's going to wait like the other 4-5 people I know who'd like to buy the Flex for something, hopefully, to come along that's better. Hopefully for Ford, that means a I-4 EB Flex. Tell me: When someone doesn't buy a vehicle from Ford, how much do they make? Are you getting the picture now on why the V-6 EB over the I-4 EB was a collassal screw up by Ford Leadership? Chuck The V6 ecoboost is here now because the 3.5 had been around longer than the just debuted 2.5L I4. For now, I say good for Ford, they've given the Flex a unique and class leading powertrain that gets the same fuel economy as the regular 3.5 AWD flex. Offering it takes away nothing from the Flex and considering that its a platform mate with the MKS and Taurus, it probably didn't cost them that much to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Here's a fundamental truth for YOU to accept then: You're not going to own a fullsize crossover, SUV, or truck anytime in the near future, because NOBODY is doing it better than this right now. Yep, I get that. There went about 4-5 Flex sales delayed until Ford delivers that. How much money did Ford lose right there, from one family alone? It's cool though...they're swimming in money, I forgot... What YOU accept as good fuel economy will vastly differ from someone who NEEDS a large crossover, SUV, or truck. I already believe that. I don't dispute that. For those people, it'll be great. Are those people the majority? Are they anywhere close to the majority? Given the sales trends when gas was almost $5/gal, it's clear they're not. So all the capital spent delivering this great 3.5L EB system (and, it is great) was to cater to a relatively smaller % ofpeople? That's a good decision on where to expend your resources??? So sorry that Ford (and nobody else keep in mind) makes a fullsize vehicle that gets fuel economy that is as good as a Focus. Maybe in your land of make-believe you can also find a 1/2 ton pickup that gets 30 mpg. Unless you're Ford Leadership, don't apologize, it's not your fault. I'm sure we could get comfortable mid-20's (25, 26, 27, 28) with a normally driving I-4 EB, or, small clean diesel. Ford Leadership has seen fit to not go that direction though. They went this one. Cue the Flex driving through explosions commercials.... It's not like Ford ISN'T working on a solution for this. Heck, there will probably be I4 EcoBoost AND hybrid versions of the Flex in the next few years. I'm sure there will be. They'll be many of us waiting to buy until they are... Sorry that Ford decided to replace its thirstiest engines (V8's) with EcoBoost engines before it went after replacing its BRAND NEW already-pretty-darn-fuel-efficient-for-the-power-it-makes 3.5 V6. Which will be more important for Ford and which will make a higher impact to CAFE? A Flex that gets 26 mpg instead of 24 because of an I4 EcoBoost, or an F-150 that gets 23 mpg instead of 21 because of a V6 EcoBoost? How about a powerful Focus and Fusion that still get really good FE? How about a good performing Taurus/Sable/MKS that get really good FE? How about a Ranger/Explorer/SportTrack that get really good FE? How about an Edge/Flex/MKT that get really good FE? Are not these the vehicles that people are buying for a reason? Are not the V-8 type vehicles not selling for a reason? Why would you as Ford "Leadership" not want - 2 to 3 years ago when gas was really starting to climb - to get a I-4 EB engine into all those vehicles so you could be in front of the competition instead of behind it? Here's your fundemental problem: You blindly accept whatever Ford does. Period. I don't. With the public perception that the Big 3 have, they need to be doing It - all aspects of It - better. The Flex is another 500. It's 90% of what people could really get into. For many, it'll be 100%. But for many many more, it won't. And, ironically, it has the same problem the 500 had: No name recognition, and, not a stellar engine. Name recognition can't be helped in a new ride. The engine can. You deliver a Ford Flex to the Stealerships that gets 27 mpg on the highway, and you'll be selling them like crazy. 22? Good luck with that... Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yep, I get that. There went about 4-5 Flex sales delayed until Ford delivers that. How much money did Ford lose right there, from one family alone? It's cool though...they're swimming in money, I forgot... How about the number of sales Ford will gain with the EB 3.5L? You can't claim loss of sales on one side of the argument and ignore the gain of sales on the other side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 How about the number of sales Ford will gain with the EB 3.5L? You can't claim loss of sales on one side of the argument and ignore the gain of sales on the other side. Precisely. I have an inkling that the EcoBoost is going to do very well in the MKS and quite possibly the Taurus also if they market it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yep, I get that. There went about 4-5 Flex sales delayed until Ford delivers that. How much money did Ford lose right there, from one family alone? It's cool though...they're swimming in money, I forgot... I already believe that. I don't dispute that. For those people, it'll be great. Are those people the majority? Are they anywhere close to the majority? Given the sales trends when gas was almost $5/gal, it's clear they're not. So all the capital spent delivering this great 3.5L EB system (and, it is great) was to cater to a relatively smaller % ofpeople? That's a good decision on where to expend your resources??? Unless you're Ford Leadership, don't apologize, it's not your fault. I'm sure we could get comfortable mid-20's (25, 26, 27, 28) with a normally driving I-4 EB, or, small clean diesel. Ford Leadership has seen fit to not go that direction though. They went this one. Cue the Flex driving through explosions commercials.... I'm sure there will be. They'll be many of us waiting to buy until they are... How about a powerful Focus and Fusion that still get really good FE? How about a good performing Taurus/Sable/MKS that get really good FE? How about a Ranger/Explorer/SportTrack that get really good FE? How about an Edge/Flex/MKT that get really good FE? Are not these the vehicles that people are buying for a reason? Are not the V-8 type vehicles not selling for a reason? Why would you as Ford "Leadership" not want - 2 to 3 years ago when gas was really starting to climb - to get a I-4 EB engine into all those vehicles so you could be in front of the competition instead of behind it? Here's your fundemental problem: You blindly accept whatever Ford does. Period. I don't. With the public perception that the Big 3 have, they need to be doing It - all aspects of It - better. The Flex is another 500. It's 90% of what people could really get into. For many, it'll be 100%. But for many many more, it won't. And, ironically, it has the same problem the 500 had: No name recognition, and, not a stellar engine. Name recognition can't be helped in a new ride. The engine can. You deliver a Ford Flex to the Stealerships that gets 27 mpg on the highway, and you'll be selling them like crazy. 22? Good luck with that... Chuck chuck...4 or 5 sales, not a lot lost at all...cost of developing the 2.5? now theres a number...and a BIGGER one, it is around the corner...chill....they are selling VERY well right now, at least here...seems people are cross shopping the Traverse from what i have witnessed....oh, yeah, its mileage is similar....oh, and two have also told me 25mpgs is acheivable with a gentle right foot....22 for a 350hp AWD hotrod is NOT too bad at all, and get it straight...THAT model isn't aimed at the Prius huggers....some still enjoy driving and some serious power..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Ford Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 The flex is obviously losing sales to the Prius. Who cares if you can't take your family with your, or can't fit a carryon bag in the trunk. You're still getting 48MPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Chucky, gut tells me there is a 2.5 or 2.0 eco in the Flexs future....hell, heres a question , if it can put out the same 265hp in a lighter package ( ? ) than the current normally aspirated 3.5 and get 5-6 mpgs better then what would actually be the need for the 3.5 at all, remember, things take time, personally i am with you on the need for the smaller displacement eco's, but also remember Americans love of the V8, this 3.5 is the first step, and was probably high on the list as its developement probably statrted ( actually it obviously did ) before STUPID gas gouging took place....so be patient, they ARE coming, they are NOT vaporware.... Yeah, I'm with you there. I think we'll see the 3.5L N/A just fade into the limelight...there'll be no need for it. We'll have an I-4 EB, and (at least) a 3.5L EB. As more and more are produced, more and more economies of scale are realized...so the EB will get cheaper and cheaper. I know and understand the love of the V-8...nothing sounds like one, and nothing hits like one - I don't hate'em, I love'em. The thing though is, American's also are used to cheap gas. The rest of the world isn't driving goats anymore...they're Industrializing. We've already reached Peak Oil. This little dip we're seeing is because we're in a global recession and demand, and the speculators (for now), have been reigned in. That's not going to last forever. When gas starts going up again - and, it will - 22 mpg ain't going to be sh1t. And that's really my whole point...people remember the almost $5/gal gas days. Even though it makes awesome power, it gets 22 mpg...on the highway. And that's all those people are going to be seeing..... Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 How about the number of sales Ford will gain with the EB 3.5L? You can't claim loss of sales on one side of the argument and ignore the gain of sales on the other side. Oh, they'll gain...for certain. Not even remotely close than if they'd had a I-4 EB first, but, for sure, they'll gain. If I had a written guarantee from BP that I could get gas at $2/gal for the next 10 years, I'd be first in line to get a 2010 EB'd Flex. But since I won't get that......it's waiting game..... Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yeah, I'm with you there. I think we'll see the 3.5L N/A just fade into the limelight...there'll be no need for it. We'll have an I-4 EB, and (at least) a 3.5L EB. As more and more are produced, more and more economies of scale are realized...so the EB will get cheaper and cheaper. I know and understand the love of the V-8...nothing sounds like one, and nothing hits like one - I don't hate'em, I love'em. The thing though is, American's also are used to cheap gas. The rest of the world isn't driving goats anymore...they're Industrializing. We've already reached Peak Oil. This little dip we're seeing is because we're in a global recession and demand, and the speculators (for now), have been reigned in. That's not going to last forever. When gas starts going up again - and, it will - 22 mpg ain't going to be sh1t. And that's really my whole point...people remember the almost $5/gal gas days. Even though it makes awesome power, it gets 22 mpg...on the highway. And that's all those people are going to be seeing..... Chuck flip side of the price of gas going up...3.5 eco will STILL get better mileage than a V8, so in that light it may be advantageous...cannot wait till this engine gets grafted into an SVO Mustang......perhaps with even more grunt..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Oh, they'll gain...for certain. Not even remotely close than if they'd had a I-4 EB first, but, for sure, they'll gain. There is no possible way for you substantiate that claim. No possible way to prove it wrong either. Seems we are at a stalemate. Can we move on to something else now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 There is no possible way for you substantiate that claim. No possible way to prove it wrong either. Seems we are at a stalemate. Can we move on to something else now? how about Diesel Mondeo's..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 chuck...4 or 5 sales, not a lot lost at all...cost of developing the 2.5? now theres a number...and a BIGGER one, it is around the corner...chill....they are selling VERY well right now, at least here...seems people are cross shopping the Traverse from what i have witnessed....oh, yeah, its mileage is similar....oh, and two have also told me 25mpgs is acheivable with a gentle right foot....22 for a 350hp AWD hotrod is NOT too bad at all, and get it straight...THAT model isn't aimed at the Prius huggers....some still enjoy driving and some serious power..... That's 4-5 sales lost in one family. The lots around Chicago are packed with Flex's. I see none on the road. Now, to be fair, not much is selling anyways, so, can't fault the Flex for that. Don't get me wrong: I want power too. I'd love a 350HP Flex. When gas is cheap, WTF wouldn't? My whole premise here is that people haven't forgotten almost $5/gal (and still climbing) gas. That was a real wakeup call...and frankly, one that we needed to have here in the US. It's outstanding that there's a 350HP Flex. That's bad@ss (I'm being serious). What's not outstanding is it gets 22 mpg. That sux. Gimme the 27/28 mpg Flex that performs like today's 3.5L NA V-6....because that power is more than adequate, and those mpg numbers are definitely acceptable. 22mpg? Unacceptable, no matter the power. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 (edited) I'll give you an example: My mom's '93 Sable is just hanging in there. She'd love to go buy a Flex. However, when she asked me what the MPG's were, and I told her, she initially thought I was mistaken. She just flat out didn't believe that the MPG's were that low. Her response, almost verbaitem, was "That's it?!?! We're not getting another gas guzzler like your father bought...I guess I'll just hang onto my Sable." Had the Flex been introduced in 2007, it would have been rated by the EPA at 19/26. Funny how that works. Edited January 12, 2009 by White99GT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 how about Diesel Mondeo's..... I'm not taking that bait!!! Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Had the Flex been introduced in 2007, it would have been rated by the EPA at 19/26 (better than your Mom's Sable). Funny how that works. When I start making payments (when I had none before) on a $40k loan for the next 5 years, I want to make sure when gas hits $5/gal sometime in that period that I'm not being @ssraped at the pump, along with my @ssrape auto loan I also have to pay on. Funny how that works. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Then perhaps you should buy a vehicle you can more easily afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I'm not taking that bait!!! Chuck diesel vespa?........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Then perhaps you should buy a vehicle you can more easily afford. That's a good Sales slogan...I'm sure that'll sell more cars: "Ford: If you can't afford lots of $5/gal gas, then don't be buying our vehicles!" Wait, they sorta already did that with their SUV's and Truck's this past time....how'd that work for their sales again? Genius! Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 diesel vespa?........... Only if it has a OTR stack on it...for all that bad diesel smoke that pours of of clean diesels... :happy feet: Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Ford Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Chuck, do you realize that the only AWD 7 seaters that get better highway fuel economy are the new GM Lambdas, at 23? 4% worse highway fuel economy in exchange for 70HP and 100lb-ft of torque. Even at $5 gas, I'm sure that people shopping 7 seaters won't care too much about that small of a discrepancy. If they do, everyone but GM is screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 That's a good Sales slogan...I'm sure that'll sell more cars: "Ford: If you can't afford lots of $5/gal gas, then don't be buying our vehicles!" Wait, they sorta already did that with their SUV's and Truck's this past time....how'd that work for their sales again? Genius! Chuck You have a few options here... 1. Don't buy that $40K SEL or Limited Flex, buy it's less optioned $28K SE twin 2. Buy an Escape Hybrid 3. Buy a 2010 Fusion Hybrid Why should a full-size, 3-row crossover be expected to get 30 mpg? It's already doing as well as your Mom's Sable despite being much larger, much heavier, much more powerful, and much more versatile. Perhaps you should have explained to her that the window sticker reading 24 mpg in 2009 doesn't mean the same thing it did in 1993. The Flex is no more a "gas guzzler" than her Sable is. Facts, gotta love 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 That's a good Sales slogan...I'm sure that'll sell more cars: "Ford: If you can't afford lots of $5/gal gas, then don't be buying our vehicles!" Wait, they sorta already did that with their SUV's and Truck's this past time....how'd that work for their sales again? Genius! Chuck hey, I'd love a 430 Ferrari too......too expensive, they lost a sale..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Chuck, do you realize that the only AWD 7 seaters that get better highway fuel economy are the new GM Lambdas, at 23? 4% worse highway fuel economy in exchange for 70HP and 100lb-ft of torque. Even at $5 gas, I'm sure that people shopping 7 seaters won't care too much about that small of a discrepancy. If they do, everyone but GM is screwed. Yes, I completely realize that. For those that require 7 passenger seating, then obviously, a Flex will be right at the top of their list. For those that require a Flex, with gobs of power, and are willing to trade that for mpg, then an EB Flex will be at the top of their list. My point is those two demographics aren't going to be huge. No, I have no research to back that up. One need to only look at the many many many people driving minivans, SUV's, and 4 door full size trucks around to see that this is the truth: The vast majority of them are very seldomly hauling 7 people with them, and/or towing. By far, there's 1 adult, 1 adult and two kids, 2 adults and one kid, or 2 adults and 2 kids. That extra seat is there for backup/the dog, and all the extra space is utilized for the family needs. Most family haulers aren't drag raced. So when this average family of 4, which doesn't drag race their new $40k ride, goes shopping, and see's the Flex and Flex EB there...and this average family of 4 - who has the average family of 4 budgetary pressures - see's the 22/23 highway mpg rating, on top of the new auto loan they'll be taking out. And then this average family of 4 thinks back to last year when their @ssholes were constricting everytime gas set a new record...that average family of 4 is going to be hard pressed to sign up for 7-10 years or 22 mpg "goodness". Call me crazy, but, I think that my scenario above is going to be played out just slightly a few more times than the guy who wants to drag race, so he goes and buys a Flex. Or the guy who needs to tow sh1t all the time, so he goes and buys a Flex. Or the family of 5-7 (who'll be under even more budetary pressure than the family of 4) going with 22 mpg option instead of the 24 mpg option. I know...I'm crazy.... Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 You have a few options here... 1. Don't buy that $40K SEL or Limited Flex, buy it's less optioned $28K SE twin 2. Buy an Escape Hybrid 3. Buy a 2010 Fusion Hybrid 4. Wait for a Flex that gets good gas mileage to be available. You forgot this one. Why should a full-size, 3-row crossover be expected to get 30 mpg? None. 30 mpg highway would be awesome, but, likely that's only going to be available with...oh man, I won't say it. But, solid to high 20's would be Acceptable. Wouldn't it be nice if Ford had that now for 2010 and then added the 'Drive it through explosions and mud Yeeehaaaw!!!' Flex? I think so...I'm probably just crazy though...silly me to think people care about fuel economy.... It's already doing as well as your Mom's Sable despite being much larger, much heavier, much more powerful, and much more versatile. Perhaps you should have explained to her that the window sticker reading 24 mpg in 2009 doesn't mean the same thing it did in 1993. The Flex is no more a "gas guzzler" than her Sable is. Facts, gotta love 'em. Perhaps one would theorize in 18 years, and at double the cost, someone could make a 7 people hauler that gets better mileage than our '92 Aerostar did. Crazy...I know, Crazy.... Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 hey, I'd love a 430 Ferrari too......too expensive, they lost a sale..... Dude, I don't think Ferrari needs to worry about sales....at their demographics, they're always going to have buyers.... Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.