Ford Delays Launch of Global Transit

[Biker16]

1, 2) So the idea is to force your customers to spend tens of thousands of dollars revamping =their= designs, in order for you to save a few bucks in stamping parts? From RVs to box vans to shuttle buses, I would bet the cost to Ford's suppliers--in the changes to THEIR dies, jigs, etc., would FAR exceed the cost to Ford to keep two sets of dies.

 

I don't like that.

 

3) The 'cost' of redesigning the frame is, again, forcing your customers to spend tens of thousands of dollars revamping =their= designs.

 

While the E-Series frame has been upgraded periodically, its hardpoints and dimensions have not.

 

shpould ford have contiued to make the model T because our suppliers were used to making parts for it and our customers were useed to driving it? no.

 

 

Fuck'em they will have to change. either to our new product or to our competition older product. they will adapt.

 

We are a multi billion dollar company, we cannot afford to let a small percentage of our base prevent us from making better products that can, in the long run make more money.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Biker16

[battyr]

Ford has redesigned the boxes on the back of their F-150 in the past 10 years. You can still get caps, covers, etc.

[RichardJensen]

shpould ford have contiued to make the model T because our suppliers were used to making parts for it and our customers were useed to driving it? no.

Uh, what, exactly is WRONG with the E350 & E450 cabs? We're not talking Model T here, where that product was thoroughly obsolete by the time it was retired.

Fuck'em they will have to change.

I love your attitude toward Ford's customers. Perhaps Ford should adopt that attitude toward ALL its customers.

We are a multi billion dollar company, we cannot afford to let a small percentage of our base prevent us from making better products that can, in the long run make more money.

This point is also ridiculous. Ford, in your opinion, should IGNORE the LEGITIMATE concerns of OVER HALF its E-Series customers because you want ALL the E-Series to look like Transits?

 

You must be kidding me. You want Ford to cheese off a well established set of customers that GM & Daimler would kill for for COSMETIC reasons.

[RichardJensen]

Ford has redesigned the boxes on the back of their F-150 in the past 10 years. You can still get caps, covers, etc.

You are, presumably, aware of the differences in engineering something like this:

 

 

and something like this:

 

[battyr]

The engineering would not be changing. just the mounting points and the dimensions.

 

The top manufacturers of any consumer product has to make cosmetic changes every few years anyway to keep their products looking fresh.

[92merc]

I think people here are arguing more than one "market niche" here.

 

The E series should stay. But only in the "heavy duty" arena. In areas where they are usually bought with just a cab. This would be your ambulance, cab over, RV market. This is the market that would be the 350, 450. Set it up for the 5.4, the 6.7 diesel, probably even the 4.4 diesel and upcoming 5.0 gasser. But these are usually the cab/chassis purchases. You don't see too many 350 E series setup for passenger service as a standard wagon van. At least I don't around here. Nothing that couldn't be filled by the next niche below...

 

But for the 15 passenger and 1/2 ton van market, switch to the big Transit. Make them fuel efficient. 3.5, 3.5 EB. Maybe even a 2.5 EB depending on the wheel base. This is more for lighter loads, semi-local markets. Make it safe as there will be a passenger version. But the 1/2 ton E-Series would go away. Maybe even the 3/4 ton 250.

 

Lastly, use the mini-transit and the four bangers and hybrids. This is a mostly local market for delivery. Possibly even taxi. Make it fuel effecient and safe.

[RichardJensen]

The engineering would not be changing. just the mounting points and the dimensions.

 

The top manufacturers of any consumer product has to make cosmetic changes every few years anyway to keep their products looking fresh.

That remark is like your remark about how Chrysler is competitive with Ford, except in terms of quality.

 

What you're saying is: They wouldn't have to reengineer it, all they'd have to do is redesign all of it.

 

And for what? So you could have an E450 cutaway with shared sheetmetal with a delivery vehicle in Bonn, Germany?

 

Not for a minute buying that logic.

[battyr]

That remark is like your remark about how Chrysler is competitive with Ford, except in terms of quality.

 

What you're saying is: They wouldn't have to reengineer it, all they'd have to do is redesign all of it.

 

And for what? So you could have an E450 cutaway with shared sheetmetal with a delivery vehicle in Bonn, Germany?

 

Not for a minute buying that logic.

 

From Wikipedia"

 

Competitiveness is a comparative concept of the ability and performance of a firm.

 

You look at Chryslers full size cars and full size vans, trucks and mid-size trucks I would say they have more than their share of ability and performance. Quality is only one measure, although an important one of competitiveness. I can only name 4 companies that has improved on Chrysler in quality in recent years, Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda.

 

Edit:

 

You know I was not comparing Chrysler to Ford specifically. But rather the industry in general. I did not state that Chrysler was the best, I was stating that Chrysler had some competitive vehicles in the whole market.

 

BTW add Minivans to the list.

Edited February 10, 2009 by battyr

[RichardJensen]

Quality is only one measure, although an important one of competitiveness.

Exactly. I believe my snarky response was that your remark was analogous to saying "she's really pretty--except for her face."

 

Quality is a major concern in 'competitiveness' for end users.

 

Similarly, saying, "They wouldn't have to reengineer the product, all they'd have to do is change the mounting points and dimensions" is saying, in effect, "they'd have to reengineer it" as a substantial portion of engineering involves precisely those factors.

 

Even if it's not ALL that's involved in engineering, it's a pretty significant amount.

 

-----

 

And I stand by my assertion that the cost to Ford in keeping separate sheetmetal (and interior moldings) for the E450 & E350 would be far exceeded by the costs of reengineering and retooling for Ford's customers, should Ford push a change through the system.

 

These are, by and large, small companies with minimal economies of scale. Telling a company that manufactures 3,000 E450 derived shuttle buses a year that they have to redesign their entire shell.................. Not a good way to treat a customer, especially when that directive is accompanied by no improvements in economy, in weight and in capability.

 

Rather, the only reason given would be, "Well, it's either make YOU redesign YOUR product or make a company in Britain redesign THEIR products"....

 

Believe me, that guy will be getting sales brochures from International as soon as he hears that line.

[Biker16]

Uh, what, exactly is WRONG with the E350 & E450 cabs? We're not talking Model T here, where that product was thoroughly obsolete by the time it was retired.

 

We can better serve our customers with a more modern product. it is called marketing. just because it is number one does not mean it can not be improved, or replaced

 

I love your attitude toward Ford's customers. Perhaps Ford should adopt that attitude toward ALL its customers.

 

like ford has treated the CV customers, Taurus customer and focus customers launch and leave. you are arguing against progress you know you will lose.

 

This point is also ridiculous. Ford, in your opinion, should IGNORE the LEGITIMATE concerns of OVER HALF its E-Series customers because you want ALL the E-Series to look like Transits?

 

You must be kidding me. You want Ford to cheese off a well established set of customers that GM & Daimler would kill for for COSMETIC reasons.

 

put it this way. When would be a good time to redesign the E-series? in your opinion?

[Pioneer]

When would be a good time to redesign the E-series?

 

Immediately. The new grille on it looks like .

[RichardJensen]

We can better serve our customers with a more modern product.

 

put it this way. When would be a good time to redesign the E-series? in your opinion?

1) In what way is using Transit sheetmetal on an E-Series frame 'more modern'? It creates minimal efficiencies for Ford and creates tons of complications for Ford's customers.

 

2) Look at this:

 

 

As it relates to hardpoints and exterior dimensions at the B pillar nothing has changed. The 2008 model sports slightly newer sheetmetal. That's it.

 

For 31 years, Ford has absolutely dominated the industry with the same basic shape.

 

Suddenly, and for no particular reason relating to FUNCTIONALITY, you want the E350 & E450 to have Transit sheetmetal?

 

Pardon me if I still consider the concept to be somewhere between asinine and idiotic.

Edited February 11, 2009 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

1) In what way is using Transit sheetmetal on an E-Series frame 'more modern'? It creates minimal efficiencies for Ford and creates tons of complications for Ford's customers.

 

2) Look at this:

 

 

As it relates to hardpoints and exterior dimensions at the B pillar nothing has changed. The 2008 model sports slightly newer sheetmetal. That's it.

 

For 31 years, Ford has absolutely dominated the industry with the same basic shape.

 

Suddenly, and for no particular reason relating to FUNCTIONALITY, you want the E350 & E450 to have Transit sheetmetal?

 

Pardon me if I still consider the concept to be somewhere between asinine and idiotic.

 

 

economies of scale is not in the sheet metal but in the parts /componenets, shared between all E-series models.

 

While GM has made numerous changes to its van, and it's customers continue to base products on their product. they will adjust. we will have to sell them on the benefits of our products vs our competitors.

[RichardJensen]

like ford has treated the CV customers, Taurus customer and focus customers launch and leave. you are arguing against progress you know you will lose.

So, you think Ford should imitate past mistakes with consumer cars? Nice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW: WHAT PROGRESS? Transit sheetmetal on an E-Series frame is PROGRESS? How? Progress? It's progress to do nothing to improve the vehicle while alienating your customers? What are we? GM?

[RichardJensen]

economies of scale is not in the sheet metal but in the parts /componenets, shared between all E-series models.

 

While GM has made numerous changes to its van, and it's customers continue to base products on their product.

What parts and components? The mold for the dashboard and the front doors? Gee. Wow. By all means, let's inflict MILLIONS of DOLLARS of expenses on loyal customers so we can have ONE dashboard mold and one set of molds for the front doors.

 

What else do you have to 'share'????? Seriously. Have you ever seen a cutaway? THERE'S NOTHING BEHIND THE B-PILLAR!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

----

 

 

 

And, BTW, GM's cab/chassis and cutaway market (the primary market for the E350 & E450) is all but nonexistent.

[RichardJensen]

All the 'orphaned' parts that Biker wants to eliminate have been in production, without significant variation, for nearly two or more decades.

[Biker16]

BTW: WHAT PROGRESS? Transit sheetmetal on an E-Series frame is PROGRESS? How? Progress? It's progress to do nothing to improve the vehicle while alienating your customers? What are we? GM?

 

have you ever thought that in the past 30 years that our customers, may have a wish list of things they would like to change on the E-series????? maybe this is a great time to listen to the customer and get feedback on ho to make their products even better?????

 

 

What parts and components? The mold for the dashboard and the front doors? Gee. Wow. By all means, let's inflict MILLIONS of DOLLARS of expenses on loyal customers so we can have ONE dashboard mold and one set of molds for the front doors.

 

What else do you have to 'share'????? Seriously. Have you ever seen a cutaway? THERE'S NOTHING BEHIND THE B-PILLAR!!!!!!!!

 

from a parts value standpoint, most of the purchased parts on vans are from the B-pillar forward. hvac systems, ECU, wiring, seats, airbags, radios, I clusters, windshields, side glass, wiper motors, washer reservoirs, switch gear, shifters, steering wheels, steering columns, headliners, sun visors, dome lights, head lamps, grilles, turn signals, and much much more. you don't get the fact that these parts will be shared with the 250-300,000 Transits sold elsewhere in the world and the 100,000 or so transit sold here. the economies of scale will make it a no brainer to seek commonality, and retire the E 350 and E450.

 

 

And, BTW, GM's cab/chassis and cutaway market (the primary market for the E350 & E450) is all but nonexistent.

 

then I would love to see, all of out loyal customers go over to GM, and inccur the same costs involved with changing over to our all-new product.

 

All the 'orphaned' parts that Biker wants to eliminate have been in production, without significant variation, for nearly two or more decades.

 

you sound like a member of the panther mafia. :lol:

Edited February 11, 2009 by Biker16

[twintornados]

I think you guys are missing the point....when (not if) Ford re-engineers Econoline, they will bring in all the upfitters so they can have input into the design process so that Ford will continue to dominate the segment for decades to come.

[RichardJensen]

have you ever thought that in the past 30 years that our customers, may have a wish list of things they would like to change on the E-series????? maybe this is a great time to listen to the customer and get feedback on ho to make their products even better?????

Yeah. The customers have SO many things they want to change on the E-Series cab that they've bought it at a greater than 50% share for as long as I've been alive. Give me a break.

from a parts value standpoint, most of the purchased parts on vans are from the B-pillar forward. hvac systems, ECU, wiring, seats, airbags, radios, I clusters, windshields, side glass, wiper motors, washer reservoirs, switch gear, shifters, steering wheels, steering columns, headliners, sun visors, dome lights, head lamps, grilles, turn signals, and much much more. you don't get the fact that these parts will be shared with the 250-300,000 Transits sold elsewhere in the world and the 100,000 or so transit sold here. the economies of scale will make it a no brainer to seek commonality, and retire the E 350 and E450.

What you include in that list that ISN'T partsbin would save so little over the course of a product cycle, as to make the cost of marrying the Transit front end to the E450/E350 frame ridiculous.

then I would love to see, all of out loyal customers go over to GM, and inccur the same costs involved with changing over to our all-new product.

Gee. Daring your customers to leave. That's a great idea.

you sound like a member of the panther mafia. :lol:

Right. Because 33 years of uncontested leadership in a segment means one thing: It's time to replace the product.

 

What makes the panther different from the E-Series is the sheer magnitude of aftermarket investment in the E-Series. That investment should be respected, as it has lined Ford's pockets lo these past three decades.

 

OTOH, what aftermarket investment has the panther gotten? safety cages, light bars, and push bars. Doesn't even compare to the amount of money an RV company has invested in a E450 derived camper.

 

:rolleyes:

[RichardJensen]

I think you guys are missing the point....when (not if) Ford re-engineers Econoline, they will bring in all the upfitters so they can have input into the design process so that Ford will continue to dominate the segment for decades to come.

I doubt that we'll see any of the raw dimensions of the heavy duty E-Series change anytime soon.

 

In fact, I'll bet that the Transit has kept its basic dimensions for roughly as long as the E-Series has.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For pretty much the exact same reason.

 

There's no compelling reason to change.

[twintornados]

I doubt that we'll see any of the raw dimensions of the heavy duty E-Series change anytime soon.

 

In fact, I'll bet that the Transit has kept its basic dimensions for roughly as long as the E-Series has.

 

For pretty much the exact same reason.

 

There's no compelling reason to change.

I can see them re-designing the front suspension and finally lose the twin I beams....

[Biker16]

I can see them re-designing the front suspension and finally lose the twin I beams....

no The E-series is perfect no need to fix what is not broken, per Richard Jensen.

[Biker16]

Yeah. The customers have SO many things they want to change on the E-Series cab that they've bought it at a greater than 50% share for as long as I've been alive. Give me a break.

 

cut the crap the only reason it has not changed is because the lack of serious competition.

The

F-series has always been a top seller. that does not mean we do not improve the product.

 

What you include in that list that ISN'T partsbin would save so little over the course of a product cycle, as to make the cost of marrying the Transit front end to the E450/E350 frame ridiculous.

 

It would be an all new frame the idea of trying to modify the cab to fit a frame is not as good as designing a an all new frame to fit the transit cab. the parts bin is where the cost savings are.

 

. Daring your customers to leave. That's a great idea.

they have a choice we have an opportunity to keep thier business for another 30 years.

 

Right. Because 33 years of uncontested leadership in a segment means one thing: It's time to replace the product.

change is the reality of this business deal with it.

 

What makes the panther different from the E-Series is the sheer magnitude of aftermarket investment in the E-Series. That investment should be respected, as it has lined Ford's pockets lo these past three decades.

 

OTOH, what aftermarket investment has the panther gotten? safety cages, light bars, and push bars. Doesn't even compare to the amount of money an RV company has invested in a E450 derived camper.

 

:rolleyes:

 

they will adapt or they will go out of business.

[RichardJensen]

Ah yes. The old 'no serious competition' line. Right. Marketplace dominance by a Ford product must be because the other products suck.

[RichardJensen]

It would be an all new frame the idea of trying to modify the cab to fit a frame is not as good as designing a an all new frame to fit the transit cab. the parts bin is where the cost savings are.

 

Let's design an all new frame, and alienate loyal customers to save a few pennies on windshield washer reservoirs.

 

Wow. I'm glad you DON'T work for Ford.