unionguy963 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Oh your one of those people who think this is a bluff. you think the company is trying to get over on us. Your the one with your head up your ass. Ford motor company has roughly 21 billion cash( that's including the 12 billion credit line) last year it took 22 billion dollars to run the company. And I'm sure you know the company is not profitable. so that gives ford less that one years worth of operating cash. Now that you know the financials, Do you really think they will spend every last dime of employing you??? your an idiot. no i take that back, your an idiot thats part of the problem. Just in case you think I'm rolling over let me ask you a question When as the last time you were on a picket line???? my guess never. I'm sure you didnt even go down to american axle to help them out even though its right around the corner. Your the type thats sits on your ass and complains when things dont go your way. You talk tuff and expect people to listen to you well, IDIOT i'm not the one. Not only do I understand what UNIONISM is, I also understand that people like you will be enjoying your job because of the dedication I have as well as many,many others have. I just wonder if you will have the courage and the brains when we the union get strong again to not work those 7 days 12 hours. But are ready to sit on a picket line and get back what we have conceeded, my guess is you will be to stupid to fight when you can win. Dont worry you sit back and the rest of us will carry you. No need to thank me just keep doing what your doing and we'll take care of it. what a tool I don't think this was a bluff.... Just so you know the last time I was on a picket line was in 1989, my third strike. Strike pay was $45 a week.... I think that last year when we turned a small profit in the first quarter(I think it was the first quarter) Ford was testing the trigger they are refusing to pull. I believe to a point we are artifically suppressed. The hybrid Escape is a perfect example, there's a waiting list at every dealer for this ride. Problem is no batterys...we get them from Toyota....That's why we only have a 16% market share in the hybrid segment...People wouldn't even care about the Prius if our hybrid Escape were truely available..... What I do think this was, was the biggest wholesale grab by management in the history of the labor movement.... Shame on our bargaining team for coming to the table feeling so weak.... You want to talk about emerging markets....China sales are down from their big what, 230,000 units in one year.....Want to know why....Because that's all the people in that country that can afford to buy a car....everywhere else in the world they don't pay the workers enough to afford to buy what they build... How does that even come close to the north american market???? They say next year N. America will produce around 10 million units....Mid 1980's levels....Is China or Russia even coming close???? ..... No I think Ford Motor wants to stay in business in N. America.... I think we can draw a straight line between the loss of market share in N. America to the loss of jobs....Or in other words, If we aren't building it we, aren't buying it.... I'm talking seperations, buyouts, and their family members.... I think this new language goes too far and is a bad deal for us and our struggle for labor...for middle class America. I think it falls way short of protecting our retirees.... And I'm truely disappointed that it passed at Sterling.... Do you even work at Sterling??? Don't compare us to American Axle.... They don't manufacture the highest quality gear sets in the world....We do!!! They don't move more weight through their heat treats every year than anyone else in the world!!! WE DO !!!!! We are a single point supplier to Ford and should have sent the message to IUAW and Ford that they could have done better than this.... It's not like everyone wasn't prepared to give something up.... But this goes to far..... The work Sterling is going to get, is the work they were planning on sending in anyway..... Even with this round of give backs.... Ford won't let their business take off until right before we go to the bargaining table in 2011... they'll make a profit in 2011.... But we'll be able to look forward to 12 years of wage freeze instead of the eight we're already living with.... Tell me... how many picket lines have you been on???? The brothers and sisters were making $5 dollars a day... More than anyone else at the time.... Why did they need to organize???? Because they needed to... That's why.... Sometimes the right thing to do is make a stand and fight for the American dream and social justice..... They created a middle class... It's our job to protect it,and I think we missed an opportunity to do just that.... I understand UNIONISM..... I've been supported by it and lived it my whole life.... And I've done my fair share of plowing the road for people like you who like to feel like you're taking care of everyone else.... You've got your opinion and I've got mine..... SOLIDARITY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionguy963 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Funny...it was in the highlights wrong and the 36 page explanation package wrong too huh? Tell me how it is wrong please. From what i have read, if there are people laid off and a job offer opens out of zone (out of MI for zone 1-2) The people that are laid of have 3 choices. One take the out of zone offer. 2) take the layoff for 18 months OR their length of service whichever is greater. 3) bump low seniority in Zone (MI) and the low seniority then has to go out of zone.What part is wrong? Steve.... There's no substitute for the written word..... No matter what anyone tries to say.... What's in writing is all that counts..... SOLIDARITY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Captain, If you believe that just an empty promise of looking into in sourcing work is enough to vote for this then Fine. Its a bad agreement that will get worse in a few weeks when Gm and Crysler work out their own deals. The product that vandyke is to receive is small potatoes. Low volume case added to an existing line. We are already having rolling Lay offs. Down weeks etc. This vote as nothing to do with what Mod thinks we should do, or what kind of politics he is playing. It's about whats right and wrong. It's about selling the farm over and over again. It's about giving up everything Our grandfathers, our fathers, our mothers worked so hard over years and years to get. It's not about the overtime changes, or the holiday loses, sub, tap, cola, veba.. Its a point in the Unions history when it will decide to weather Stand for more then oneself or walk the green mile to the gas chamber. Company promised new product in the last contract talks, Seen any of it? The Union just in December said it didn't matter if we worked for free that anything we do would not help these companies. Its about shared hurt and pain.. Management is not giving up enough. This agreement will break the Union no matter how you vote.. We at vandyke will take care of the ROOM when election time comes. It's the economy man. This is a pile of chit.The whole thing. The down weeks, the rolling layoffs, and not to mention churning. Who said we don't get earthquakes in Michigan? The products coming in are from suppliers. They would have been built elsewhere. I know we're not building much, but Ford didn't cut brands and models. We are in it to win it. The new stuff coming this summer is knockin socks off. Customers are coming to fords for an American car because they appear to be scared of the other two. We'll be compensated for our temporary sacrifices; as painful as they are. I'm more pissed of on principle than money. My vote will still be yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 (edited) . Edited March 1, 2009 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tompor1 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Steve.... There's no substitute for the written word..... No matter what anyone tries to say.... What's in writing is all that counts..... SOLIDARITY There you have in a nut shell.. Read the white pages and vote on what you read, not what is said!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 I hope you have some low seniority at your plant. That way when I lose my job I can bump in there instead of having to go to Chicago. :happy feet: So you feel if there is a feww hundred out of zone jobs that the high seniority should be the people to go? Steve, you beleive that high seniority should have to go out of zone?? You both need to be unelected if you think that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterling17 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I DO BELEIVE THAT FORD NEEDS HELP BUT WHY DO THEY KEEP COMING TO US WHEN THEY WAIST SOO MUCH MONEY IN THINGS LIKE GENRAL STORE ITEMS THAT COST MORE THAN THEY SHOULD OR IN THING LIKE SHIPPING BECOUSE OF POOR MAN. THERE IS SO MUCH WAISTED MONEY AND ANY ONE WHO WORKS HERE CAN SEE IT. I HAVE TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT THIS AND THEY SEE IT. TO MISS PLACED MACHINES THAT END UP SCRAP BECOUSE THEY CAN'T FIND THEM MOTORS GET THROWN AWAY AND TOOLS. I HAD A VALVE THAT WAS TAKEN OFF TO GET REBUILT TOOK FOREVER TO GET REBUILD KIT WHEN KIT CAME IN THEY CAN'T FIND IT. WELL SOMEONE TOLD SOMEONE TO CLAEN OUT CRIP AND THEY THREW IT AWAY. IT IS JUST A SHAME WHEN WE TAKE CUTS AND I SEE SO MUCH NEEDLESS WAIST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 I don't think this was a bluff.... Just so you know the last time I was on a picket line was in 1989, my third strike. Strike pay was $45 a week.... I think that last year when we turned a small profit in the first quarter(I think it was the first quarter) Ford was testing the trigger they are refusing to pull. I believe to a point we are artifically suppressed. The hybrid Escape is a perfect example, there's a waiting list at every dealer for this ride. Problem is no batterys...we get them from Toyota....That's why we only have a 16% market share in the hybrid segment...People wouldn't even care about the Prius if our hybrid Escape were truely available..... What I do think this was, was the biggest wholesale grab by management in the history of the labor movement.... Shame on our bargaining team for coming to the table feeling so weak.... You want to talk about emerging markets....China sales are down from their big what, 230,000 units in one year.....Want to know why....Because that's all the people in that country that can afford to buy a car....everywhere else in the world they don't pay the workers enough to afford to buy what they build... How does that even come close to the north american market???? They say next year N. America will produce around 10 million units....Mid 1980's levels....Is China or Russia even coming close???? ..... No I think Ford Motor wants to stay in business in N. America.... I think we can draw a straight line between the loss of market share in N. America to the loss of jobs....Or in other words, If we aren't building it we, aren't buying it.... I'm talking seperations, buyouts, and their family members.... I think this new language goes too far and is a bad deal for us and our struggle for labor...for middle class America. I think it falls way short of protecting our retirees.... And I'm truely disappointed that it passed at Sterling.... Do you even work at Sterling??? Don't compare us to American Axle.... They don't manufacture the highest quality gear sets in the world....We do!!! They don't move more weight through their heat treats every year than anyone else in the world!!! WE DO !!!!! We are a single point supplier to Ford and should have sent the message to IUAW and Ford that they could have done better than this.... It's not like everyone wasn't prepared to give something up.... But this goes to far..... The work Sterling is going to get, is the work they were planning on sending in anyway..... Even with this round of give backs.... Ford won't let their business take off until right before we go to the bargaining table in 2011... they'll make a profit in 2011.... But we'll be able to look forward to 12 years of wage freeze instead of the eight we're already living with.... Tell me... how many picket lines have you been on???? The brothers and sisters were making $5 dollars a day... More than anyone else at the time.... Why did they need to organize???? Because they needed to... That's why.... Sometimes the right thing to do is make a stand and fight for the American dream and social justice..... They created a middle class... It's our job to protect it,and I think we missed an opportunity to do just that.... I understand UNIONISM..... I've been supported by it and lived it my whole life.... And I've done my fair share of plowing the road for people like you who like to feel like you're taking care of everyone else.... You've got your opinion and I've got mine..... SOLIDARITY Do you even work at Sterling??? Don't compare us to American Axle.... They don't manufacture the highest quality gear sets in the world....We do!!! They don't move more weight through their heat treats every year than anyone else in the world!!! WE DO !!!!! We are a single point supplier to Ford and should have sent the message to IUAW and Ford that they could have done better than this.... Dave you need to get back to Sterling because we are not the gear excellence plant anymore SHARRONVILLE is. You also needed to listen to the explanation (oh your going off what happened 25 years ago...) I also talk to a few of the appointees you put on during your time as our chairman. They were telling people to vote down the agreement. Bob King knows who they are in our plant because the AAI people told him after the meeting. Kevin Mccaully,Beverley Richardson,George Dreske,Rose Williams. Not to mention all your local appointees who were out there. I think National Appointees work for Bob King. I know VanDyke is going to see a few removed I hope he also takes care of Sterlings Problems at the same time. They did better than your COA's you pumped up our ass... Oh 2 of them at that. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpmaster Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I DO BELEIVE THAT FORD NEEDS HELP BUT WHY DO THEY KEEP COMING TO US WHEN THEY WAIST SOO MUCH MONEY IN THINGS LIKE GENRAL STORE ITEMS THAT COST MORE THAN THEY SHOULD OR IN THING LIKE SHIPPING BECOUSE OF POOR MAN. THERE IS SO MUCH WAISTED MONEY AND ANY ONE WHO WORKS HERE CAN SEE IT. I HAVE TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT THIS AND THEY SEE IT. TO MISS PLACED MACHINES THAT END UP SCRAP BECOUSE THEY CAN'T FIND THEM MOTORS GET THROWN AWAY AND TOOLS. I HAD A VALVE THAT WAS TAKEN OFF TO GET REBUILT TOOK FOREVER TO GET REBUILD KIT WHEN KIT CAME IN THEY CAN'T FIND IT. WELL SOMEONE TOLD SOMEONE TO CLAEN OUT CRIP AND THEY THREW IT AWAY. IT IS JUST A SHAME WHEN WE TAKE CUTS AND I SEE SO MUCH NEEDLESS WAIST. FYI: it's the key on the left side of your keyboard, it says, "caps lock." Do us a favor: tap that key once, K? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Question...if your from romeo, how do you know what the local committee at Van Dyke is telling the membership? Steve ar eyou really so Green that you think your in your own world at VanDyke. Most of us have 3-10 family and Friends at VanDyke. The second you or that Bum ass Chairman of your talks it goes right to Bob King. Maybe you guys over there are too fucking stupid to know that. Keep talking looks like MOD is going to have pleanty of open appointed spots and pleanty of competition when they all lose thier jobs for not supporting the administration. I guess you guys all think Bob is a complete pussy? I can se why too. MoD and your appointees get busted never coming to work and being drunk all day and Bob saves your collective asses and now your going to spit on him to save your job. Politics at its finest, but i have a feeling Bob knows how to play politics too and you at VanDyke will end up with the stinky end. Steve you should be smarter than this but MOD has you under his spell.Hey when you kissing his ass let him know we have a dental plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trufflebuns Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 FYI: it's the key on the left side of your keyboard, it says, "caps lock." Do us a favor: tap that key once, K? Stop nitpicking and read the message. Some folks have poor eyesight, others have a poor mindset. It's all good. Sincerely, Your UnStepford Sister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standup Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Sterling Axle passes the Modifications by 60% to 40% today. The explaination was way better than that shitty flyer they handed out. I suggest to everyone who has not voted yet to listen to the explaination before you vote. There are way too many untrue rumors flying around. Most of the people who voted NO at Sterling did not listen to the explaination or ask questions they just came to vote with thier anger. I will not tell you how to vote but I suggest you to listen before you choose because it changed my vote today! You do know at each meeting they are there to sell you this agreement. It is marketing!!! You should have done your own research, to know that Ford will not will go bankrupt in the next year, and they are trying to use Ford as a model for the other companies, but if I were the other companies, if this passes, I would expect at least twice the concessions since they are truly in trouble right now. I think you screwed your union bros at GM and Chrysler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standup Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I don't think this was a bluff.... Just so you know the last time I was on a picket line was in 1989, my third strike. Strike pay was $45 a week.... I think that last year when we turned a small profit in the first quarter(I think it was the first quarter) Ford was testing the trigger they are refusing to pull. I believe to a point we are artifically suppressed. The hybrid Escape is a perfect example, there's a waiting list at every dealer for this ride. Problem is no batterys...we get them from Toyota....That's why we only have a 16% market share in the hybrid segment...People wouldn't even care about the Prius if our hybrid Escape were truely available..... What I do think this was, was the biggest wholesale grab by management in the history of the labor movement.... Shame on our bargaining team for coming to the table feeling so weak.... You want to talk about emerging markets....China sales are down from their big what, 230,000 units in one year.....Want to know why....Because that's all the people in that country that can afford to buy a car....everywhere else in the world they don't pay the workers enough to afford to buy what they build... How does that even come close to the north american market???? They say next year N. America will produce around 10 million units....Mid 1980's levels....Is China or Russia even coming close???? ..... No I think Ford Motor wants to stay in business in N. America.... I think we can draw a straight line between the loss of market share in N. America to the loss of jobs....Or in other words, If we aren't building it we, aren't buying it.... I'm talking seperations, buyouts, and their family members.... I think this new language goes too far and is a bad deal for us and our struggle for labor...for middle class America. I think it falls way short of protecting our retirees.... And I'm truely disappointed that it passed at Sterling.... Do you even work at Sterling??? Don't compare us to American Axle.... They don't manufacture the highest quality gear sets in the world....We do!!! They don't move more weight through their heat treats every year than anyone else in the world!!! WE DO !!!!! We are a single point supplier to Ford and should have sent the message to IUAW and Ford that they could have done better than this.... It's not like everyone wasn't prepared to give something up.... But this goes to far..... The work Sterling is going to get, is the work they were planning on sending in anyway..... Even with this round of give backs.... Ford won't let their business take off until right before we go to the bargaining table in 2011... they'll make a profit in 2011.... But we'll be able to look forward to 12 years of wage freeze instead of the eight we're already living with.... Tell me... how many picket lines have you been on???? The brothers and sisters were making $5 dollars a day... More than anyone else at the time.... Why did they need to organize???? Because they needed to... That's why.... Sometimes the right thing to do is make a stand and fight for the American dream and social justice..... They created a middle class... It's our job to protect it,and I think we missed an opportunity to do just that.... I understand UNIONISM..... I've been supported by it and lived it my whole life.... And I've done my fair share of plowing the road for people like you who like to feel like you're taking care of everyone else.... You've got your opinion and I've got mine..... SOLIDARITY nicely said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterling17 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 FYI: it's the key on the left side of your keyboard, it says, "caps lock." Do us a favor: tap that key once, K? See thats what I mean does it matter if i use all capitals its the point that counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 You do know at each meeting they are there to sell you this agreement. It is marketing!!! You should have done your own research, to know that Ford will not will go bankrupt in the next year, and they are trying to use Ford as a model for the other companies, but if I were the other companies, if this passes, I would expect at least twice the concessions since they are truly in trouble right now. I think you screwed your union bros at GM and Chrysler. Thats why assholes like your self need to listen to Bob Talk because if we turn this down get ready for all of this and 10 dollar pay cut and screw the retirees. You need to grow up and listen. Vote how you want all Im saying is that Bob explains it better than anyone else. I voted yes and I am proud. I am not happy but I I believe in the UAW unlike most of the people who have UAW jobs and still don't believe in it. Liek the guys with over 30 years. Real easy to be tuff when you have 30 years seniority. Get out and take the package! Your the reason we are in this mess anyway, because people want to work with 40 years seniority! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trufflebuns Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 See thats what I mean does it matter if i use all capitals its the point that counts. Amen Bro! The rank and file is a diverse group and the sooner we all embrace that fact the better united we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trufflebuns Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Thats why assholes like your self need to listen to Bob Talk because if we turn this down get ready for all of this and 10 dollar pay cut and screw the retirees. You need to grow up and listen. Vote how you want all Im saying is that Bob explains it better than anyone else. I voted yes and I am proud. I am not happy but I I believe in the UAW unlike most of the people who have UAW jobs and still don't believe in it. Liek the guys with over 30 years. Real easy to be tuff when you have 30 years seniority. Get out and take the package! Your the reason we are in this mess anyway, because people want to work with 40 years seniority! "Bob"'s your uncle. He is a pussy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 So you feel if there is a feww hundred out of zone jobs that the high seniority should be the people to go? Steve, you beleive that high seniority should have to go out of zone?? You both need to be unelected if you think that way. I have not stated how i feel in any post. I stated how the language reads so that the members can understand how it will work. It used to be: you had to have job openings in your plant and high seniority at plants that had people in gen/jsp could put in for those jobs. The language has changed and the people that are voting need to understand that. What I say on this site has nothing to do with influencing the vote in either direction. There is not one post where I have tried to influence people to vote in either direction. I just feel that it is my responsibility to inform the people I represent with the correct information. Isn't that my job? The decisions these people make may have a huge impact on them. They have the right to know what it is they are voting on. So what would you have me as a elected official do when I see partial information or incorrect information posted? If making sure people are educated on what they are voting on is reason enough for me to be recalled, unelected, or yanked off my job, then so be it. My vote is my business. I will not post which way I am voting because it may sway some people and that's not right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEagle Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 "Bob"'s your uncle. He is a pussy. Your a pussy! ans he's your uncle punk! U r real tuff on a computer bitch! another pusy who can't be a man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trufflebuns Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Your a pussy! ans he's your uncle punk! U r real tuff on a computer bitch! another pusy who can't be a man! Sweetie, if I wanted to be a man I would have used my med bennies years ago to do just that. ) I like my "girls" Wayyyy too much for that nonsense. Now, ya wanna thumb rassle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trufflebuns Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I have not stated how i feel in any post. I stated how the language reads so that the members can understand how it will work. It used to be: you had to have job openings in your plant and high seniority at plants that had people in gen/jsp could put in for those jobs. The language has changed and the people that are voting need to understand that. What I say on this site has nothing to do with influencing the vote in either direction. There is not one post where I have tried to influence people to vote in either direction. I just feel that it is my responsibility to inform the people I represent with the correct information. Isn't that my job? The decisions these people make may have a huge impact on them. They have the right to know what it is they are voting on. So what would you have me as a elected official do when I see partial information or incorrect information posted? If making sure people are educated on what they are voting on is reason enough for me to be recalled, unelected, or yanked off my job, then so be it. My vote is my business. I will not post which way I am voting because it may sway some people and that's not right. Way to go, Bro! Do you have a few spare moments to educate the rest of the IUAW? (I know that's a huge task and a lot to ask, but...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve morris Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Way to go, Bro! Do you have a few spare moments to educate the rest of the IUAW? (I know that's a huge task and a lot to ask, but...) All i can do for you is read what it states in the 36 page explanation. I can tell you what was said at region. other than that, you may have to ask a iuaw rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trufflebuns Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 All i can do for you is read what it states in the 36 page explanation. I can tell you what was said at region. other than that, you may have to ask a iuaw rep. I have the summation (a pirated copy) and the 60 page "Modifications to the UAW Ford 2007 National Agreement" that I strong armed my old committee dude (now IUAW) out of. Reading comprehension is a strong suit here. Not so much in the IUAW, I fear. So, what is this "36 page explanation" you speak of? Maybe all 42,000 members need it to peruse for a few days before the vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wixom22 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 In reading the white sheet it refers to Entry-level employees. Who are they refering too, and are there any of them in Zone 1 and zone 2 ? And what plants are these Entry level people at ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trufflebuns Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 (edited) In reading the white sheet it refers to Entry-level employees. Who are they refering too, and are there any of them in Zone 1 and zone 2 ? And what plants are these Entry level people at ? My VERY self serving Plant Chair stated in an emergency meeting on Friday that there are '05's at Sterling, lowest on the eastside. Don't know if that helps. However, I know for a fact that there are '04's at DTP and Romeo. EDTA: Unless it is referring to the temporary workers at Saline...Another can of worms. Edited March 1, 2009 by Trufflebuns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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