UAW/Chryslr new PAY SCALE?

[Critic]

Thank you for the history lesson. I was just too damn tired to look it up.

 

No problem Len. I was going to add, NO automaker has ever filed bankruptcy before. BUT I am unsure of myself. I thought I read that yesterday, but didn't know if it included a qualifier.

 

Right now it's going to be a supplier issue. And with some of these posts your putting out, I'm getting a little upset with what I'm reading. But I'll just have to wait about 5 years for the book on it all.

[Captain723]

Hey, can the hostility. The fact the GW was president has about as much to do with U.S. Airlines Chapter 11 as the Obama administration will find out they have now (and I voted for this President). Separation of powers. The only influence that the administration has in this Chrysler bankruptcy is that the U.S. Government is providing the debtor-in-possession financing, and that's it. The purpose of bankruptcy court is to protect the creditor, not employees and retirees and stockholders. It's rotten, but that's the way credit markets and credit laws work.

 

Here's a link to another post, on the small hedge funds that voted no on the debt deal - they represent teacher pensions and other retiree accounts that invested in the Chrysler debt. See; http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...showtopic=32109

look the bankruptcy will address those that did not come to the table and it will be quick and painful for them....that way it will pave the way so that GM does not follow suit! Do you think it was coincidence that they got 30 days and GM got 60.....nope!!!

[Len_A]

me too,that is yet another thing we agree on....

 

people dont realize that this is a very bad thing, and it will spread....

 

Yea, it will spread. National news is showing how some small communities are really dependent on some dealer's providing the sales tax revenue (40% was one mayor's estimate). This shit is really scary.

 

Len I didn't mean the last sentence of the entire article. I meant the last sentence of the quote I posted from this link you provided.

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...ost&id=9096

 

 

 

The point I am trying to make is that nothing is written in stone. Just because they filed chapter 11 doesn't necessarily mean blue collar is gonna get fucked more than they already agreed to. Agreements have already been made and contracts have already been signed. I understand that can all be changed, but lets not forget that the Pres and his task force that helped forge these deals will have a heavy say on what goes on in that courtroom. Could more cuts be coming? Sure. Could the Chapter 11 filing just be used to force the rest of the debt holders on board and preemptively deal with the dealer franchises? Sure.

 

Lots of feel good talk for mainstreet by many folks in the government these days. Lets hope its not just all talk.

I hope it's not all talk too, but I do not trust people who come up with things like "quick rinse bankruptcy" and then don't at least have some subordinate provide some basis for this. And I voted for this administration.

 

I never said that the blue collar (or the white collar) is going to get fucked more in a Chapter 11, but like you just posted - nothing is written in stone and that gives bankruptcy judges a wide latitude in their decision making. I will say that in Delphi's case, the judge went a long way in not giving in to management right off the bat, and made them go back to the bargaining table. I wouldn't be happy with the agreement they struck there, but that's the "joys" of bankruptcy. A bankruptcy judge's decision can be appealed, too.

 

Like I posted above - this shit is scary. We are in seriously uncharted waters.

[lovelincolns]

Wrong. Yes he can. The judge will, at the request of management or the creditors, look at the company's financial situation, and can set the wages wherever he sees fit. This is what happened at U.S. Airways in 2004. I found that tidbit on another unions website: http://www.cwa-union.org/news/page.jsp?itemID=27353663

 

The judge imposed an emergency 21% pay cut, for four months. Management sought a six month cut.

 

The UAW's lawyers can try arguing the union's point-of-view, but management's attorneys will do the same, and the secured creditors will do the same, and the judge is going to use his best judgment (no pun intended) and apply the bankruptcy law that exists, and part of that law is that he can set new wages, cancel benefits, terminate pensions, etc. In all likelihood they'll try not to, but if the secured creditors make the case that the automotive task force was trying to steamroll them into a bad deal that disregards their absolute legal status as first-in-line-to-get-paid (which is what you have as a secured creditor), the bankruptcy judge can get real nasty.

 

This has all the potential to go south for the Chrysler employees real fast. I don't give a rats ass what the administration says about a "quick rinse" bankruptcy. That phrase has no basis in bankruptcy law that my research has found.

That is unlikely because all the big players were willing to work together, it was a few of the smaller creditors thought they could take advantage of the situation and wanted double what the others agreed to at the last minute. One of them has already changed their tune and is willing to agree to the terms. With Obama standing with the workers and their families things should be able to get worked out quickly.

[whereswaldo]

Ok since Chrysler is going to file, how soon, and how low do you think the UAW pay scale will fall to?

if you follow the mantra of auto workers making $75 per hour theres a long way to go, but my paycheck says I only get $28 and change.

that second tier of pay what is it $14 or $18? I can't remember but i bet that is going to be the benchmark.

This is not going to be a normal B. Worse case scenario, 10% base wage cut. Remember Fords concessions brought us down to within $5-6/hr of the transplants. CAW's supposedly dropped theirs close to the $19Can. that Cerberus was looking for. The Govt also has pledged $6-8 billion into Chrys/Fiat if the prepackaged goes thru their way. There will be alot of pressure on the courts to flip the remaining hedgefunds and dealers to get this thing done. I dont care what happened at this airline or that steel mill. They didnt have the govt go thru all this BS for it to lead to a virtual liquidation this late in the game.

[whereswaldo]

This is not going to be a normal B. Worse case scenario, 10% base wage cut. Remember Fords concessions brought us down to within $5-6/hr of the transplants. CAW's supposedly dropped theirs close to the $19Can. that Cerberus was looking for. The Govt also has pledged $6-8 billion into Chrys/Fiat if the prepackaged goes thru their way. There will be alot of pressure on the courts to flip the remaining hedgefunds and dealers to get this thing done. I dont care what happened at this airline or that steel mill. They didnt have the govt go thru all this BS for it to lead to a virtual liquidation this late in the game.

LEt me make it clear, even if this pans out this way the pain is yet to come.....plant closings, many perm. layoffs, suppliers needing more help. It will still get uglier here in Michigan.

[Len_A]

That is unlikely because all the big players were willing to work together, it was a few of the smaller creditors thought they could take advantage of the situation and wanted double what the others agreed to at the last minute. One of them has already changed their tune and is willing to agree to the terms. With Obama standing with the workers and their families things should be able to get worked out quickly.

I hope so. I would love nothing more than to see this done quickly, and I hope that progress moves fast, and is reported as such, so the GM debt holders take notice. Still, anything that can go wrong with this...

[dark270]

I hope so. I would love nothing more than to see this done quickly, and I hope that progress moves fast, and is reported as such, so the GM debt holders take notice. Still, anything that can go wrong with this...

 

 

to quote a famous star wars saying..."i have a very bad feeling about this." that is how i feel....

things will not go well in B. and they will see this, the 'hedge' funds can drag this out years, by the lws they have...

 

look at delphi......

 

not good at all.

[VDTRANSMAN]

LEt me make it clear, even if this pans out this way the pain is yet to come.....plant closings, many perm. layoffs, suppliers needing more help. It will still get uglier here in Michigan.

 

Unfortunately I agree, but its not just Michigan. Gonna see many more cities looking like Flint.

 

Cut everyone off at the knees and your going to see many more STATES looking like Flint. You think the housing market is bad now? Cut everyones pay in this economy, regardless if Chrysler/GM survive, and see how fast it snowballs out of control.

[Len_A]

Unfortunately I agree, but its not just Michigan. Gonna see many more cities looking like Flint.

 

Cut everyone off at the knees and your going to see many more STATES looking like Flint. You think the housing market is bad now? Cut everyones pay in this economy, regardless if Chrysler/GM survive, and see how fast it snowballs out of control.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Grey Goose]

guilty as charged on the typo/misspellings (talk about fumble fingers when typing) - and I never said I was an expert. BTW, I'm using Firefox, so I don't have the spell checker button, and Firefox's spell checker sometimes needs to be turned off and then back on to work.

 

But, like I said, guilty as charged on the misspellings.

 

As far as my "faux" research, one, I never said what I found was the last word, and two, to help everyone else out (and yourself), for Pete's sake, if you find something that says otherwise, post a link.

 

And shove the hostility. I'm not trying to jerk anyone's chain, just post shit I have subscription access to.

Len that is a fair enough reply my friend. Forgive me for my hostility, I, like everyone else am a little short tempered of late and you're entitled to both your posts as well as your opinions. Forgive me , we're all on the good ship Titanic together.

You are not my enemy nor am I yours and my anger was uncalled for. Enough said.

[Len_A]

Len that is a fair enough reply my friend. Forgive me for my hostility, I, like everyone else am a little short tempered of late and you're entitled to both your posts as well as your opinions. Forgive me , we're all on the good ship Titanic together.

You are not my enemy nor am I yours and my anger was uncalled for. Enough said.

Grey Goose, buddy, no offense taken. Don't worry about it a second more. This shit is getting on all our nerves. For what it's worth, my wife got canned December 1 from the automotive practice group at Michigan's biggest law firm (she's a paralegal with TWO fucking bachelor's degrees, a 3.9 GPA, and over 16 years experience, and they had great benefits). Guess who the practice groups main fucking client was - Chrysler. The firm whacked three paralegals, two legal secretaries and an associate attorney.

 

She has interviewed four places since then - one U.S. government position, one utility company, a very big insurance company, and one small law firm, and that's it since December 2nd. Turned down by all of 'em. Now with Chrysler filing Chapter 11, all product liability lawsuits are legally frozen, so my wife's former employer will probably layoff most of the rest of the group, because as of today, there's no work to do. They only need a handful of people to do NHTSA investigation work. My wife's fear is that that will mean even more competition for her.

 

BTW, if you want a real laugh - Firefox's spell checker crapped out again on me - I don't think it can handle my carpal tunnel induced fumble thumbs typing method. Besides the fact that with a four year degree and a third of an MBA, I still can't spell worth a damn!! I always hated school. I need a drink - Absolute martini time!!!

[Grey Goose]

Grey Goose, buddy, no offense taken. Don't worry about it a second more. This shit is getting on all our nerves. For what it's worth, my wife got canned December 1 from the automotive practice group at Michigan's biggest law firm (she's a paralegal with TWO fucking bachelor's degrees, a 3.9 GPA, and over 16 years experience, and they had great benefits). Guess who the practice groups main fucking client was - Chrysler. The firm whacked three paralegals, two legal secretaries and an associate attorney.

 

She has interviewed four places since then - one U.S. government position, one utility company, a very big insurance company, and one small law firm, and that's it since December 2nd. Turned down by all of 'em. Now with Chrysler filing Chapter 11, all product liability lawsuits are legally frozen, so my wife's former employer will probably layoff most of the rest of the group, because as of today, there's no work to do. They only need a handful of people to do NHTSA investigation work. My wife's fear is that that will mean even more competition for her.

 

BTW, if you want a real laugh - Firefox's spell checker crapped out again on me - I don't think it can handle my carpal tunnel induced fumble thumbs typing method. Besides the fact that with a four year degree and a third of an MBA, I still can't spell worth a damn!! I always hated school. I need a drink - Absolute martini time!!!

Thanks for your understanding Len. I'm really sorry to hear about your wife. I need a drink as well, but I'm an American auto worker so I can't really afford one .

However....a double scotch on the rocks here, Dewars if you're buying. :happy feet:

[dark270]

Thanks for your understanding Len. I'm really sorry to hear about your wife. I need a drink as well, but I'm an American auto worker so I can't really afford one .

However....a double scotch on the rocks here, Dewars if you're buying. :happy feet:

 

 

hey i'll buy one or two for both of you, we all could use some!!!!

[Len_A]

Thanks for your understanding Len. I'm really sorry to hear about your wife. I need a drink as well, but I'm an American auto worker so I can't really afford one .

However....a double scotch on the rocks here, Dewars if you're buying. :happy feet:

I'm an unemployed/underemployed working stiff factory rat with a degree. If I can't be understanding toward my family in automotive, especially at Ford, then I'm a shitty excuse for a human being, and I consider all American auto workers to be family. Anyone outside of this industry that has a problem with that can kiss my fat white ass. Especially the people posting at WSJ, MarketWatch, and the few car detailing forums I like to frequent. Last November and December I really went at it with a few people that I used to be friends with on those forums. I'm sick to death of people who have never worked on the line making judgments about those that do.

 

My wife and I will survive. So will you, and dark, and everyone else. How well we survive, well, that's up in the air. And BTW, Dewars is good stuff.

 

hey i'll buy one or two for both of you, we all could use some!!!!

I'll pay for a limo service (if I still have any credit left) so we can get hammered, and someone else can drive us home. Might as well spend one night celebrating being working people and abuse our livers for one night. Man, could we all use a vacation, especially someplace fun. Like Vegas.

[dark270]

I'm an unemployed/underemployed working stiff factory rat with a degree. If I can't be understanding toward my family in automotive, especially at Ford, then I'm a shitty excuse for a human being, and I consider all American auto workers to be family. Anyone outside of this industry that has a problem with that can kiss my fat white ass. Especially the people posting at WSJ, MarketWatch, and the few car detailing forums I like to frequent. Last November and December I really went at it with a few people that I used to be friends with on those forums. I'm sick to death of people who have never worked on the line making judgments about those that do.

 

My wife and I will survive. So will you, and dark, and everyone else. How well we survive, well, that's up in the air. And BTW, Dewars is good stuff.

 

I'll pay for a limo service (if I still have any credit left) so we can get hammered, and someone else can drive us home. Might as well spend one night celebrating being working people and abuse our livers for one night. Man, could we all use a vacation, especially someplace fun. Like Vegas.

 

 

yes at least it would be good to get away and not think about all this crap going on.

 

your right i know we will make it, but in what condition..... sad. i did have hopes for obama and more, but i think that just went out the window....

bankruptcy is not a good thing

just ask these guys

[Marginal Economist]

I listened to Obama today and I'm hopeful that Chrysler will remain a viable company. I'm holding out on a full judgement until we see what happens to the suppliers and dealer network. I'd like to see what products they continue to build and what Fiat wants to bring over for US production.

 

I'm nervous about the senior secured bond holders and their unwillingness to come to the table. If the BK judge thinks they have a valid point, would that change the share of the pie? If the UAW or Fiat no longer gets their agreed upon percentage, do they go back to the table with other demands?

 

Normally, senior secured bondholders would be 1st to get paid. With this scenario, there is a likely chance they will get nothing. What does that do to future bondholders? Will they be willing to give cash to major companies for capital improvements? Will the actions freeze more of the credit markets. I don't like the growing chasm between Main Street and Wall Street.

[whereswaldo]

Unfortunately I agree, but its not just Michigan. Gonna see many more cities looking like Flint.

 

Cut everyone off at the knees and your going to see many more STATES looking like Flint. You think the housing market is bad now? Cut everyones pay in this economy, regardless if Chrysler/GM survive, and see how fast it snowballs out of control.

You're right , not just MI. But Chrys. and GM are going to have to cut models and makes. This means job cuts and plant closings. Govt is trying to thread a needle with the lesser of two evils. But even their way will be painful. If Chrys/GM can be remade into viable companies they will have to be much smaller. And with a lot less dealers,plants,suppliers,marketing,etc., the pain will be felt across the country. If Ford can hold out thru this yr AND get on the ball with new models/powertrains, they should be ok. But it will still be very sad. I'm about the only Ford in my family. Have a lot of GM and Chrysler though.

[stephenhawkings]

This is not going to be a normal B. Worse case scenario, 10% base wage cut. Remember Fords concessions brought us down to within $5-6/hr of the transplants. CAW's supposedly dropped theirs close to the $19Can. that Cerberus was looking for. The Govt also has pledged $6-8 billion into Chrys/Fiat if the prepackaged goes thru their way. There will be alot of pressure on the courts to flip the remaining hedgefunds and dealers to get this thing done. I dont care what happened at this airline or that steel mill. They didnt have the govt go thru all this BS for it to lead to a virtual liquidation this late in the game.

some one could argue that my base pay hasn't changed, just my cola vacation and everything else, but i did get my benefits book!

[whereswaldo]

some one could argue that my base pay hasn't changed, just my cola vacation and everything else, but i did get my benefits book!

Keep in mind parity or pattern doesn't mean line item for line item. Chrysler never got the first VEBA and $1/hr in wage raise that we voted to give up. CAW is losing lost our version of A plan, their supplemental health for semi-private rooms(which I never knew they had anyway). The point is they're looking at the over all package. Even in a B, I'm confident base wages will be the last to be touched. Remember how when we passed our VEBA and ol' Getto said "80 year viability"....? Look how times have changed in 2 yrs. And they have announced the 1st warning shot over the bow. When UAW starts admin. VEBA next yr, benefit levels may likely have to be adjusted. Hope that horse has a seat belt . We all are going to need it.