Blue Oval Staff Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Click here for the article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 It was under Reitzle's watch that the X-Type and not-so-new-looking new XJ were approved. It was Reitzle's idea to turn Jaguar in a 200,000+ unit-a-year brand. Foolish. It was his ideas that are why Jaguar is in such dire straights right now. As for Lincoln, if I recall, Reitzle was the one who pushed for it to be removed from PAG. The article completely fails to mention the Mark LT and Aviator as other new Lincolns that had hit the market since his departure in 2002. Also makes no mention of the fact that the Zephyr gets an all-new engine and the Aviator gets a superb replacement in the form of the MkX next year. :blah: Reitzle didn't bring any good ideas to the table if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagXFRGuy Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Completely wrong! The XJ and the X type we're already well underway before he was hired. God do I wish he'd come back as Chief Product Officer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Completely wrong! The XJ and the X type we're already well underway before he was hired. God do I wish he'd come back as Chief Product Officer! They started the current X-Type and XJ in the 1990's? Not likely. If that's the case, they sure do work slow to put out nothing of interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Well, the X type was new for 2001, so yeah they'd be working on it and made the decision at least by 1997-99. Heck, let's bring Jac the knife back too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbine Power Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Well, the X type was new for 2001, so yeah they'd be working on it and made the decision at least by 1997-99. Heck, let's bring Jac the knife back too! Funny: I think Jac was an idiot but he's done great in his new role. The biggest problem with Jaguar had little to do with Ford people... those people had no idea how to engineer a late 20th century vehicle when Ford bought them and it took a lot longer than 5-6 years to figure it out. The designs were great... everything else, yuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 It was under Reitzle's watch that the X-Type and not-so-new-looking new XJ were approved. It was Reitzle's idea to turn Jaguar in a 200,000+ unit-a-year brand. Foolish. It was his ideas that are why Jaguar is in such dire straights right now. Reitzle didn't bring any good ideas to the table if you ask me. Completely wrong. Reitzle wanted a new platform for Jag that would have the flexibility to be stretched to XJ size, or shortened to X-type size (similar to what Aston Martin is now doing, but on a larger scale), but use the same suspension, etc. The small thinkers in Dearborn NEVER allowed his ideas to be realized. The X-Type on the Mondeo chassis was not his idea, nor was the S-Type/LS fiasco. What he knew from experience at BMW was that for Jag to truly compete with BMW and Mercedes, it would need purpose-designed chassis and suspension, etc. Jag might have actually been able to go head to head with those marques if it had indeed been given the chance to develop Reitzle's ideas. Reitzle had more proven talent and results than anyone in Ford management today. I'm still hopeful for Mark Fields - some of his decisions look promising (reviving the Hurricane, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (edited) What he knew from experience at BMW was that for Jag to truly compete with BMW and Mercedes, it would need purpose-designed chassis and suspension, etc. Gee, you mean like the current XJ chassis that also underpins the XK and will underpin the new S-Type? Reitzle's problem was wanting to take Jaguar to such high sales volumes. He wanted the sales volumes and then worry about the rest later, because he knew Ford execs would try to pawn crap ideas on him (like the X-type on a Mondeo chassis). If he was really good for the position, he would have told Ford to stuff the X-Type where the sun don't shine, and the current XJ wouldn't look like one built in in 1970's. I say the most important aspect of Jaguar is DESIGN. Jaguar is about passion, and passion can be shown in design. With Ian Callum heading up Jaguar design now, I expect to see some flat out "sexy" Jags in the future. The new XK is the first step in that process. Dump the X-Type. Redesign the S-Type on the bonded aluminum frame (RD-6 concept please???). Redesign the XJ. Jaguar CAN sustain itself on three models alone: XJ, XK, S-Type. They don't need 200,000+ annual volume. That's where I disagreed with Reitzle. Volume would have (and already did to a point) diluted the brand's image. No Jaguar should cost under $50,000. Edited June 20, 2006 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J2D Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Bring back Reitzle, bring him back NOW. It may have been his plan to remove Lincoln from the PAG, but it was also his plan to move Lincoln upmarket with some of McGovern design Ideas like the Continental, MK9 and that Ultra Luxury Vehicle Ford didn't want. But no, those ignorant eggheads on the board didn't want their precious Lincoln to move in that direction, hell they didn't want Lincoln to do anything but become another Jaguar. ( Forgotten Hero ) As stated in the article Cadillac spent the money and look where it got them. True the Lincoln brand is trying to turn around now, but truth be told we all know it's way too late and only a matter of time before both of those ( Lincoln and Jaguar) precious brands become history. People are always complaining about Ford should sell Jaguar, but you will never hear them say Ford should sell Lincoln. Why the difference? Because you can't get shit for or from the Lincoln Brand because it's already considered DEAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (edited) Bring back Reitzle, bring him back NOW. It may have been his plan to remove Lincoln from the PAG, but it was also his plan to move Lincoln upmarket with some of McGovern design Ideas like the Continental, MK9 and that Ultra Luxury Vehicle Ford didn't want. But no, those ignorant eggheads on the board didn't want their precious Lincoln to move in that direction, hell they didn't want Lincoln to do anything but become another Jaguar. ( Forgotten Hero ) As stated in the article Cadillac spent the money and look where it got them. True the Lincoln brand is trying to turn around now, but truth be told we all know it's way too late and only a matter of time before both of those ( Lincoln and Jaguar) precious brands become history. People are always complaining about Ford should sell Jaguar, but you will never hear them say Ford should sell Lincoln. Why the difference? Because you can't get shit for or from the Lincoln Brand because it's already considered DEAD. So GM invested $6 billion in Cadillac. Where has it gotten them? Sure, their image is better off than it was a few years ago. But sales still aren't spectacular and there's no word if that investment even has them making any money. Word is it is not. Why do people say sell Jaguar and not Lincoln? It's not because Lincoln is a dead brand. Quite the opposite. Lincoln STILL MAKES MONEY. Jaguar has been a constant loser. Let's not lose sight of the big picture here: FORD SELLS MORE LUXURY VEHICLES IN THE U.S. THAN ANYONE ELSE!! There's room in the luxury portfolio for ALL of Ford's current brands. They all just need to find their niche. Moving Lincoln upmarket WOULD have been a mistake. It would have left a gaping hole in the lower end of the luxury lineup that neither Mercury nor Volvo would have been able to fill. Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Land Rover need to be the posh brands while Lincoln and Volvo clean up things on the lower end of the market. There should be as little product crossover as possible. Moving Lincoln upmarket would have just driven another nail in Jaguar's coffin. Let's look at Ford's luxury portfolio (for next year) compared to Lexus and Cadillac and let's see where the most help is needed: Lexus Small car: None Cadillac Small car: None Ford Small car: Volvo S40 Lexus Small Midsize car: IS, ES Cadillac Small Midsize car: CTS Ford Small Midsize car: Lincoln MkZ, Volvo S60, Jaguar X-Type Lexus Small wagon: None (IS Sportcross if they introduce a new one) Cadillac Small wagon: None Ford Small wagon: Volvo V50 Lexus Large Midsize car: GS Cadillac Large Midsize car: STS Ford Large Midsize car: Volvo S80, Jaguar S-Type Lexus Large wagon: None Cadillac Large wagon: None Ford Large wagon: Volvo V70/XC70 Lexus Fullsize car: LS Cadillac Fullsize car: DTS Ford Fullsize car: Lincoln Town Car, Jaguar XJ Lexus Sports car: SC Cadillac Sports car: XLR Ford Sports car: Jaguar XK, Aston Martin Vantage, Aston Martin DB9, Aston Martin Vanquish Lexus Small SUV: None Cadillac Small SUV: None Ford Small SUV: Land Rover LR2 Lexus Small Midsize SUV: RX Cadillac Small Midsize SUV: SRX Ford Small Midsize SUV: Lincoln MkX, Volvo XC90 Lexus Large Midsize SUV: GX Cadillac Large Midsize SUV: Escalade Ford Large Midsize SUV: Land Rover LR3, Land Rover Range Rover Sport Lexus Pickup/SUT: None Cadillac Pickup/SUT: Escalade EXT Ford Pickup/SUT: Lincoln Mark LT Lexus Fullsize SUV: LX Cadillac Fullsize SUV: Escalade ESV Ford Fullsize SUV: Lincoln Navigator, Land Rover Range Rover Ford has the most comprehensive luxury lineup on the market hands-down. Lincoln needs to cement itself in that lower-middle area of the luxury market to keep it that way. The only segment I would sway from that in is with trucks, where Lincoln has already squeezed its way into the SUV/SUT luxury market and where nobody other than Land Rover can really compete within Ford's brands. Edited June 20, 2006 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPITYDAFOOL VIRUSFREE Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 So GM invested $6 billion in Cadillac. Where has it gotten them? Sure, their image is better off than it was a few years ago. But sales still aren't spectacular and there's no word if that investment even has them making any money. Word is it is not. Why do people say sell Jaguar and not Lincoln? It's not because Lincoln is a dead brand. Quite the opposite. Lincoln STILL MAKES MONEY. Jaguar has been a constant loser. Let's not lose sight of the big picture here: FORD SELLS MORE LUXURY VEHICLES IN THE U.S. THAN ANYONE ELSE!! There's room in the luxury portfolio for ALL of Ford's current brands. They all just need to find their niche. Moving Lincoln upmarket WOULD have been a mistake. It would have left a gaping hole in the lower end of the luxury lineup that neither Mercury nor Volvo would have been able to fill. Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Land Rover need to be the posh brands while Lincoln and Volvo clean up things on the lower end of the market. There should be as little product crossover as possible. Moving Lincoln upmarket would have just driven another nail in Jaguar's coffin. Let's look at Ford's luxury portfolio (for next year) compared to Lexus and Cadillac and let's see where the most help is needed: Lexus Small car: None Cadillac Small car: None Ford Small car: Volvo S40 Lexus Small Midsize car: IS, ES Cadillac Small Midsize car: CTS Ford Small Midsize car: Lincoln MkZ, Volvo S60, Jaguar X-Type Lexus Small wagon: None (IS Sportcross if they introduce a new one) Cadillac Small wagon: None Ford Small wagon: Volvo V50 Lexus Large Midsize car: GS Cadillac Large Midsize car: STS Ford Large Midsize car: Volvo S80, Jaguar S-Type Lexus Large wagon: None Cadillac Large wagon: None Ford Large wagon: Volvo V70/XC70 Lexus Fullsize car: LS Cadillac Fullsize car: DTS Ford Fullsize car: Lincoln Town Car, Jaguar XJ Lexus Sports car: SC Cadillac Sports car: XLR Ford Sports car: Jaguar XK, Aston Martin Vantage, Aston Martin DB9, Aston Martin Vanquish Lexus Small SUV: None Cadillac Small SUV: None Ford Small SUV: Land Rover LR2 Lexus Small Midsize SUV: RX Cadillac Small Midsize SUV: SRX Ford Small Midsize SUV: Lincoln MkX, Volvo XC90 Lexus Large Midsize SUV: GX Cadillac Large Midsize SUV: Escalade Ford Large Midsize SUV: Land Rover LR3, Land Rover Range Rover Sport Lexus Pickup/SUT: None Cadillac Pickup/SUT: Escalade EXT Ford Pickup/SUT: Lincoln Mark LT Lexus Fullsize SUV: LX Cadillac Fullsize SUV: Escalade ESV Ford Fullsize SUV: Lincoln Navigator, Land Rover Range Rover Ford has the most comprehensive luxury lineup on the market hands-down. Lincoln needs to cement itself in that lower-middle area of the luxury market to keep it that way. The only segment I would sway from that in is with trucks, where Lincoln has already squeezed its way into the SUV/SUT luxury market and where nobody other than Land Rover can really compete within Ford's brands. Volvo and Land Rover shouldnt be in a Ford/Lincoln discussion. This is the beaten man looking for help. P.S. Did Jac NAssar lead the way in acquisition of these two European Brands? The NAVIGATOR saved Lincoln for the past 10 years. The LS besides the no traction in the snow was competitive and refreshing. But as the Focus, someone lost Focus :fan: :bowdown: :slug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystander Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 (edited) So GM invested $6 billion in Cadillac. Where has it gotten them? Sure, their image is better off than it was a few years ago. But sales still aren't spectacular and there's no word if that investment even has them making any money. Word is it is not. Why do people say sell Jaguar and not Lincoln? It's not because Lincoln is a dead brand. Quite the opposite. Lincoln STILL MAKES MONEY. Jaguar has been a constant loser. These are all claims with no supporting evidence. I don't know how you can state with such certainty that Caddy loses money and Lincoln makes money. Neither company breaks out division-specific profits and losses. One thing I do know: by completely revamping its product line with distinctive models and competitive powertrains, Cadillac has become a credible competitor to Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, etc. Lincoln is still merely selling a few tarted up Fords and has shown no clear plan to do much more than that (other than the disappointing MKS that fell so far short of its potential it was sickening). Honestly, I think a lot of the Cadillac bashing that goes on here is based on envy. Face it, if Lincoln announced tomorrow a new product rollout plan comparable to what Cadillac has done over the last five years, a lot of you guys would be creaming your jeans. Edited June 21, 2006 by bystander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68Cougar Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Volvo and Land Rover shouldnt be in a Ford/Lincoln discussion. Yeah actually they should, since they are all part of the same company now. Jaguar CAN sustain itself on three models alone: XJ, XK, S-Type. They don't need 200,000+ annual volume. That's where I disagreed with Reitzle. Volume would have (and already did to a point) diluted the brand's image. No Jaguar should cost under $50,000. I agree completely with you on this. Jaguars should never be "affordable". Jags have snob appeal, which is lost when anybody can get one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pms jones Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 (edited) First off the x type is a good car who cares if it rides on a mondeo under pinnings it has never been said that it drives like crap.Its the look of the car inside and outside that cause the problom the car it is just to old looking and never has had an x type R or a 4 seater soft top to give it some of the style that it needs .Think bmw 3series how plan that car range would be with out its high line models Edited June 21, 2006 by pms jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J2D Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) Most of the people in N.A. don't even know what an Mondeo is. but I do have to agree that the X-type is and was a nice vehicle to both drive and own. My only problem with the car was it's lack of rear passenger space. I felt that once they designed the wagon model it would offset that problem, but it didn't and Jaguar doesn't have or offer another type of vehicle (that meets my needs) for me to move up too. ( S-type interior is small too). I agree that Jag's shouldn't be considered as an affordable Luxury cars nor cost less than $50K. but had it not been for the X-type, I would not have had the opportunity to have experinced the type of service, quailty and respect from their Dealership network. So in saying I disagree with the current line up and feel that in order for Jaguar to succeed they must offer the buying public more options beside the S-type and XJ models. BRING BACK REITZLE. Edited June 22, 2006 by J2D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Most of the people in N.A. don't even know what an Mondeo is. but I do have to agree that the X-type is and was a nice vehicle to both drive and own. My only problem with the car was it's lack of rear passenger space. I felt that once they designed the wagon model it would offset that problem, but it didn't and Jaguar doesn't have or offer another type of vehicle (that meets my needs) for me to move up too. ( S-type interior is small too). I agree that Jag's shouldn't be considered as an affordable Luxury cars nor cost less than $50K. but had it not been for the X-type, I would not have had the opportunity to have experinced the type of service, quailty and respect from their Dealership network. So in saying I disagree with the current line up and feel that in order for Jaguar to succeed they must offer the buying public more options beside the S-type and XJ models. BRING BACK REITZLE. While I didn't really despise the X-Type, I just don't think it should have been in Jaguar dealers. A car similar to that would have done much better under the Lincoln umbrella. Now that I think about it, it seems the MkZ is more or less becoming what the X-Type was - an AWD V6 entry level luxury car, albeit at a slightly lower price. The MkZ (Zephyr) already outsells the X-Type handily and should fair only better with the new features next year. Baby steps here folks. Land Rover and Aston Martin seem to have been first to straighten out their lineups. Of course, they were the smallest. Volvo's lineup was already pretty solid - just continuous improvements there. Jaguar will likely be next - they're on the right path with the closing of Browns Lane and introduction of the new XK. That only leaves Lincoln. With the MkZ and MkX, they are certainly on the right track. Lincoln doesn't HAVE to be the all-things-to-all-people luxury brand like Cadillac must do for GM. They can take a more narrow approach to the luxury market. I think their niche is more as an Acura competitor as opposed to Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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