CGI for the Next gen Ecoboost engines

[jpd80]

You cannot say that the F-150 will not have a I-4 when it is redesigned, it is possible that only 10 years ago the F-150 had a base engine of 4.2 liters making 202hp being replaced by 260hp 2.3 liter Ecoboost engine. Ecoboost 1.0 is an I-3 not an I-4

 

To go from a 3.5 liter GTDI engine to 1.0liter GTDi engine is a bit excessive. To do that you would need to break 365hp per liter, that just isn't going to happen.

Deliberately accentuated to the ridiculous to prove a point, that there is a limit to downsizing

 

A more reasonable assumption is 150hp per liter is possible at the high end with optimum efficiency somewhere around 113hp today and 125hp in a Few years, making that jump to an optimum efficient 150hp per liter will require a different set of tools and technology.

Hmm, I doubt Ford would entertain subjecting a hard working truck version of that engine type to that level of stress

now, if you were talking embarking on the "Bobcat" strategy with its E85 Octane boosting Ecoboost, a CGI block could be mandatory

 

the obstacle still is the chemistry of the combustion process and with how to get the most mechanical energy out of it.

As I see it, the main obstacle is the credibility gap that exists in the mind of buyers, not withstanding any other technical limitations

 

even with the most efficient engine Ford has we have not reached the maximum thermal efficiency of ~37% we are only at ~20% even with Ecoboost.

 

To improve efficiency you fundamentally have to increase the expansion ratio, so that each drop of fuel does more work, HCCI does this.

Good luck with that, I think it shows promise but still a long way to go..

 

CGI is a wonderful material, I just don't see Ford switching en mass and having to change all their machinery to

make the the advantages of CGI a reality, It does have merit in larger engines and in particular making passenger

diesel engines significantly lighter, I don't see Ford entertaining CGI in comparatively light duty gasoline engines.

 

Ecoboost and downsizing is only part of the equation, the other part is actual weight reduction of vehicles and

electrification of significant parts of the driving cycle to enhance energy conservation, increasing efficiency.

Edited November 16, 2012 by jpd80

[theoldwizard]

the best to lower engine weight is to use a smaller engine,

Oh that worked so well in the 2.0L Explorer ! NOT !!!

[theoldwizard]

CGI is a wonderful material, I just don't see Ford switching en mass and having to change all their machinery to

make the the advantages of CGI a reality,

Exactly the point I have been trying to make !

[Biker16]

Oh that worked so well in the 2.0L Explorer ! NOT !!!

 

The explorer V6 FWD weighs 4,534lbs vs the ecoboost 2.0 at 4,448 a difference of 86 lbs

 

it a difference of 58lbs on the edge.

 

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/2013_Explorer_Specs.pdf

 

On the other hand the Ecoboost 16 on the escape is 90lbs lighter than the Eco-boost 20 and 10 lbs lighter than the 2.5. the 1.6 is 105lbs lighter on the Fusion vs theEB20

 

In theory using these numbers you could assume that a 150hp per liter Ecoboost 1.6 would save up to 191lbs on the explorer and 163lbs on the Edge simply by downsizing the engine.

 

How much weight could be saved by going to a magnesium block? 30-40 lbs? The basic Duratec 20 engine weighs less than 200lbs dry. but using smaller engine guarantees a loss in weight because the things you cannot make out of magnesium, (connecting rods, camshafts, crankshafts, etc) shrink as well and as a result become lighter. With CGI the properties of the material allow for high power density in a smaller package than is possible with aluminum and magnesium, that leads to an engine that is equal in weight at same displacement but more powerful which allows for greater downsizing. and down sizing is the surest way to reduce engine weight.

[Biker16]

Exactly the point I have been trying to make !

CGI is a wonderful material, I just don't see Ford switching en mass and having to change all their machinery to

make the the advantages of CGI a reality, It does have merit in larger engines and in particular making passenger

diesel engines significantly lighter, I don't see Ford entertaining CGI in comparatively light duty gasoline engines.

 

Ecoboost and downsizing is only part of the equation, the other part is actual weight reduction of vehicles and

electrification of significant parts of the driving cycle to enhance energy conservation, increasing efficiency.

 

electrification will for the foreseeable future be more expensive than ICE.

 

CGI will be used in GTDI applications within the next 5 years because increased power density and steady state efficiency requires stronger engines.

 

lets leave it at that, and agree to disagree.

[jpd80]

With CGI the properties of the material allow for high power density in a smaller package than is possible with aluminum and magnesium, that leads to an engine that is equal in weight at same displacement but more powerful which allows for greater downsizing. and down sizing is the surest way to reduce engine weight.

If you reduce the weight of the vehicle, then you don't need to make your engines as power dense, even the new 2.3 variable architecture Ecoboost

has a nominal rating of 80 Kw per liter, not as much as your 150 hp per liter, the emphasis appears to be swinging away from power density to fuel efficiency.

[Biker16]

If you reduce the weight of the vehicle, then you don't need to make your engines as power dense, even the new 2.3 variable architecture Ecoboost

has a nominal rating of 80 Kw per liter, not as much as your 150 hp per liter, the emphasis appears to be swinging away from power density to fuel efficiency.

 

the new gen III engine is a further refinement of the existing Engine architecture.

 

80kw is 107hp so a 2.3l version would make 250hp.

 

I'd expect the 250hp version not to be the only version of the engine sold.

 

remember the RS and fusion St are supposed to use this motor too.

[jpd80]

the new gen III engine is a further refinement of the existing Engine architecture.

 

80kw is 107hp so a 2.3l version would make 250hp.

 

I'd expect the 250hp version not to be the only version of the engine sold.

 

remember the RS and fusion St are supposed to use this motor too.

Yeah that's right but maybe the selection of CGI is for properties other than ultimate strength,

things like heating/cooling of cylinders, relative cost to Aluminum, improvements in machining techniques.

It could be a whole raft of properties that tip the balance in favor of CGI.

 

I'm just surprised that the manufacturer that placed the order has not announced anything officially,

if it was Ford you would think that their PR dept would be all over the continual technical improvement angle...

 

Is there another manufacturer who could be choosing a CGI block for their cars as a way of lowering costs over Aluminum?

[Biker16]

FYI here some Dyno pics of the focus ST before and After a ECU reprogram.

 

 

 

this would work out to 272 hp at the crank.

 

notice how the Stock ECU has a defined cliff where power and torque drop at 5300Rpm

Edited November 17, 2012 by Biker16

[jpvbs]

Has this been posted yet? I don't know anything about this publication.

 

http://autoindustrynewsletter.blogspot.com/2012/11/fordecoboost-engine-set-for-cgi-block.html

[jpd80]

Ford had an engineproject called "BobCat". some 3 years ago. Is it this we will se in 300.000 blocks next year?

 

As many OEMs lack diesel engines for light-duty trucks and sports utility vehicles, pressure will grow for high performance gasoline engines with the power and torque, fuel economy and clean emissions of a diesel, especially with demands to raise CAFE standards. This raises the question of whether compacted graphite iron (CGI) will find use for cylinder blocks of North American V8 gasoline engines.

 

http://www.automotiv...for-the-future/

The reason Bobcat died was because the cost of two fuel systems, the main PFI system and the octane boosting E85 DI system

actually cost more than converting a diesel to comply to US EPA regs, that plus the bottom end had to be shared with a diesel because

of the huge low end torque loads on crank, rods and block....

 

Mind you the thought of a mega 1.6 Bobcat thumping out up to to 320 lb ft with ease from as low as 1700 rpm would certainly turn a few heads...

 

The other thing I'm wondering is why Ford had the 4.4 V8 diesel in Las Vegas in 2009 and then went all quiet, obviously the cost and timing wasn't right.

Edited November 20, 2012 by jpd80

[theoldwizard]

It´s a new automotive newsletter from John Mortimer. He is an Engineering Journalist since decades. He started in 1962..

Ever think that he might have gotten the idea of a CGI EcoBost engine from reading this thread ?

[jpd80]

What about Ford's next generation V6?

The timing would seem about right, and it will be designed from get go for Ecoboost, so ti's possible that Ford might

build it with a CGI block, Maybe start it off in D3 cars and Utilities and then when ready, roll it out in F150 Truck.

 

Would Ford switch any existing Ecoboost I-4s if they are planning to change them in the next few years?

I think Ford would be more likely to roll through with existing block suppliers and then change everything over.

Edited November 20, 2012 by jpd80

[Biker16]

What about Ford's next generation V6?

The timing would seem about right, and it will be designed from get go for Ecoboost, so ti's possible that Ford might

build it with a CGI block, Maybe start it off in D3 cars and Utilities and then when ready, roll it out in F150 Truck.

 

Would Ford switch any existing Ecoboost I-4s if they are planning to change them in the next few years?

I think Ford would be more likely to roll through with existing block suppliers and then change everything over.

 

maybe the current I4s are simply a bridge motor to the next generation of engines.

[jpd80]

maybe the current I4s are simply a bridge motor to the next generation of engines.

Or are the 1.6 and 2.0 Euro Ecoboost engines merely a "hands across the water"?

Something Ford Europe will continue evolving while the US goes for a slightly different suite of engines..

Edited November 21, 2012 by jpd80

[2b2]

What about Ford's next generation V6?

The timing would seem about right, and it will be designed from get go for Ecoboost, so ti's possible that Ford might

build it with a CGI block, Maybe start it off in D3 cars and Utilities and then when ready, roll it out in F150 Truck.

 

Would Ford switch any existing Ecoboost I-4s if they are planning to change them in the next few years?

I think Ford would be more likely to roll through with existing block suppliers and then change everything over.

I had an ISP-outage and will never completely catch up

but

imho Lincoln's Nano 2.7v6 seems a perfect candidate

&

would also consider the newest/coming members of the 4cyl and v8 families (again think Lincoln might lead)

the pretty?certain 1.5 4cyl

& barely-rumored lessthan5.0 v8

 

and

a question

Are cylinder sleeves (or plasma coating) needed with CGI?

if not that'd be a cost saving, no?

[Biker16]

I had an ISP-outage and will never completely catch up

but

imho Lincoln's Nano 2.7v6 seems a perfect candidate

&

would also consider the newest/coming members of the 4cyl and v8 families (again think Lincoln might lead)

the pretty?certain 1.5 4cyl

& barely-rumored lessthan5.0 v8

 

and

a question

Are cylinder sleeves (or plasma coating) needed with CGI?

if not that'd be a cost saving, no?

 

no sleeve needed.

[jpd80]

False alarm with a EcoBoost with a block in CGI

 

For now any way. Maybee in the future.

 

The VW group is coming with it´s Gen 3 EA 888-engine and it will be produced in Silao Mexico and later at several places around the globe. It will initially come in about 330.000 annual engines but later it´s planned some 600.000.

 

http://www.automotiv...jetos-para-otto

 

http://ec2-107-21-58...-lo-exporta.htm

 

 

This is a very brave move by VW considering that the US economy may be about to go over a cliff and Europe is in the doldrums...

 

And it's also why i really can't see Ford changing those alloy block Ecoboost engines they have just barely introduced.

I know that all are imported for the moment but switching to CGI on this product cycle would most likely involve

the tearing up of significant external supplier contracts.

[theoldwizard]

Are cylinder sleeves (or plasma coating) needed with CGI?

if not that'd be a cost saving, no?

Most (all?) aluminum block engines require a sleeve or some type of coating in the cylinder bore.

 

The new 5.0L has one of the thinnest sleeves available in high volume engines.

 

To my knowledge, no high volume, automotive engines use plasma coating or other electrodeposited coatings (Nikasil). I would no be surprised to see plasma coating used more in the near future.

[Biker16]

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2015-ford-f-150-27-liter-ecoboost-engine-gets-detailed-74618.html

 

 

Earlier today, the next-generation 2015 Ford F-150 was unveiled with a heap of brand new features and a light-weight aluminum alloy body, setting yet another benchmark in the full-size pickup truck segment.

 

The redesigned vehicle also gained a brand new engine, a 2.7-liter EcoBoost V6 units thats supposed to delivers the performance of a mid-range V8 with greater fuel efficiency. Engineered specifically for the new F-150, the EcoBoost unit also comes with standard Stop-Start, marking the technologys debut in the Blue Ovals truck lineup.

 

Tested in the grueling Baja 1000 last year, the engine features a compacted graphite iron cylinder block, fracture split main-bearing caps, all-new aluminum cylinder heads with water-cooled integrated exhaust manifolds and a variable displacement oil pump.

 

The composite intake manifold is now lighter and more durable, while cooling jets beneath the pistons help lower the engines operating temperatures. Ford says the unit also comes with a cartridge-style oil filter integrated into top of the engine for easier service.

 

Performance and efficiency figures have yet to be announce, but we'll be right back as soon as Ford spills the beans.

 

No ones ever built a six-cylinder engine like this, said Raj Nair, Ford group vice president and global product development. It combines a host of advanced technologies found throughout the industry to create one of the most technically advanced and efficient engines ever designed.

How will CGI be used in future Ford engines.