Individual Mandate Constitutional

[Langston Hughes]

They are not outdated ideas, just abandoned for no good reason.

 

What is the real reason everything is so expensive? Don't tell me the greedy CEO either.

 

 

“If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let 'em go, because man, they're gone.”- Jack Handy.

[fmccap]

Let me get this straight, your offering up that a pharmaceutical company lied, bribed and was involved in criminal activity and government is wrong to be involved in healthcare reform? Strangely enough, the GSK case was going to be my case for tougher restrictions on corporations and more monitoring of corporations. I'm not sure i see how less government would be a better thing in this case, so please could you explain how more government is worse.

 

As a diabetic, the thought that corporations hide certain medical risks associated with medicine that I take makes me very angry and I have a hard time trusting them. I do realize that the FDA is not the total solution but until human nature changes and CEO's put people ahead of profit we will always need to regulate and watch them.

No, I'm saying the government is already heavily involved in healthcare and look what we have. Just look back to when healthcare was a free market, then look at how since then it has changed to what we have now. All along the way the government was steadily getting more involved. Hell the HMO was a government creation.

[fmccap]

“If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let 'em go, because man, they're gone.”- Jack Handy.

I didn't think you wanted to get into that at all.

[Versa-Tech]

 

 

Let me get this straight, your offering up that a pharmaceutical company lied, bribed and was involved in criminal activity and government is wrong to be involved in healthcare reform? Strangely enough, the GSK case was going to be my case for tougher restrictions on corporations and more monitoring of corporations. I'm not sure i see how less government would be a better thing in this case, so please could you explain how more government is worse.

 

As a diabetic, the thought that corporations hide certain medical risks associated with medicine that I take makes me very angry and I have a hard time trusting them. I do realize that the FDA is not the total solution but until human nature changes and CEO's put people ahead of profit we will always need to regulate and watch them.

...and unless human nature changes, those regulators will put campaign contributions and votes ahead of just policy and the wellbeing of the same people that the CEO is hurting.

 

Your argument only holds water if you assume that the regulators lack the same character defects that the CEOs have. In reality, they're all on the same team.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Versa-Tech

[fmccap]

[xr7g428]

FMCCAP, thanks for cutting through to the heart of problem. Not only do we have to buy a policy, we have to buy the most expensive one they offer: no exclusions, no lifetime cap, lots of "free stuff" that means guaranteed profits for the insurance companies.

[mikem12]

fmccap, on 02 July 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

They are not outdated ideas, just abandoned for no good reason.

 

What is the real reason everything is so expensive? Don't tell me the greedy CEO either.

***

after spending a few days in the hospital and having conversations with some of the staff I became enlightened as to why insurance companies refuse to pay some treatments and perscribed drugs. It's because Medicare sets the standard, if the government won't pay for it neither wil the insurance companies.

 

it will be the gov. who tell the providers what they can or cannot do

[Edstock]

GOP to the uninsured: Drop dead

 

 

As the ranks of the uninsured have soared, the size of Republican compassion has shriveled.

 

Why?

 

Daniel Patrick Moynihan gave me the most convincing explanation not long before he died in 2003.

“Those folks never vote for us,” he told me, summing up the Republican mind on the issue, “and we have our priorities for the money.”

 

Like trillions more in tax cuts for the best-off Americans over the next decade.

 

You may have noticed that Republicans have been struggling to come up with a credible alternative to the Affordable Care Act once they repeal it. Why is it so hard? Because Obamacare WAS the Republican alternative. It was the conservative-designed mandate and subsidy approach. Republicans are in such an intellectual cul-de-sac on this issue that Paul Ryan actually blasted Obamacare for being a sop to the president’s “cronies” in the insurance industry. Oy!

[napfirst]

How are we going to pay for this?

 

Obamacare Now Estimated to Cost $2.6 Trillion in First Decade

 

The latest estimate, as the chart details, is that Obamacare will cost $2.6 trillion dollars in its first real decade. The bill does not fully go into effect until 2014, therefore the estimate begins with that year.

"President Obama promised a joint session of Congress in 2009 to spend $900 billion over ten years on his health care law: 'Now, add it all up, and the plan that I’m proposing will cost around $900 billion over 10 years.

[Imawhosure]

How are we going to pay for this?

 

We aren't, we are going to repeal it. By the way, did you hear the interview with Alan Greenspan Nap? He says Obumacare AKA Oshit, is very, very bad. He says we can't afford it, and it will finish breaking the bank.

 

That is what the BEST Federal reserve chairman of modern times stated, and since he is no longer political, I believe him long before I would believe Obuma or Mitt.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Imawhosure

[mikem12]

We aren't, we are going to repeal it.

 

we can't, what it will do is force any small business to either close down or reduce the number of employees to below the threshhold of 50. They then won't be fined $2000. Funny thing is I believe the Big three would rather pay the $2k and put everyone on the gov dole for insurance.

 

My neighbor has already gotten change notices concerning his UAW retirement insurance. Not good.

 

What I am seeing is the systematic degration of the middle class. there will be two classes in this country before long the elite (obama) and us the working class(poor). Anyone who believes this President is for the middle class is past being ignorant.

[rn4]

We aren't, we are going to repeal it. By the way, did you hear the interview with Alan Greenspan Nap? He says Obumacare AKA Oshit, is very, very bad. He says we can't afford it, and it will finish breaking the bank.

 

That is what the BEST Federal reserve chairman of modern times stated, and since he is no longer political, I believe him long before I would believe Obuma or Mitt.

 

He also said we need to raise taxes, so I guess you'll believe that now to.

[Langston Hughes]

We aren't, we are going to repeal it. By the way, did you hear the interview with Alan Greenspan Nap? He says Obumacare AKA Oshit, is very, very bad. He says we can't afford it, and it will finish breaking the bank.

 

That is what the BEST Federal reserve chairman of modern times stated, and since he is no longer political, I believe him long before I would believe Obuma or Mitt.

 

I am completely shocked by your consideration of Greenspan as both the best and non-political. He is and always has been a conservative in his own mind and admits it. Further, anyone who has take a hard look at the financial crisis knows that his fed policies pushed the housing bubble and he has been excoriated for keeping the fed rate artificially low for such a long time.

[Versa-Tech]

GOP to the uninsured: Drop dead[b/]

Let me some this up for the short bus crowd: If you don't pay taxes, your opinion doesn't matter. If you are the one that is going to benefit from this law, your opinion doesn't matter. Why? Because for every ailment you have, there are another hundred people suffering from the same shit in places, that quite literally, have no healthcare. If your argument was trully based on morals, you would be helping them.

 

But it's not. It's always " I want, I want, I want... Me, me, me... I, I, I." So cut the bullshit. Republicans want healthcare for everyone, as much as anyone else. The difference is that Republicans are the only ones willing to tell the hard truths. You could take every dime from every millionaire [as Hitler did], and it still wouldn't be enough to pay for everyone's healthcare. Reality sucks sometimes, stop blaming the GOP for being honest about it.

[retro-man]

Republicans want healthcare for everyone, as much as anyone else. The difference is that Republicans are the only ones willing to tell the hard truths. You could take every dime from every millionaire [as Hitler did], and it still wouldn't be enough to pay for everyone's healthcare. Reality sucks sometimes, stop blaming the GOP for being honest about it.

I might buy all that, had I never seen with my own eyes how well and how much more efficiently the health care system works in some other places.

[fmccap]

We aren't, we are going to repeal it. By the way, did you hear the interview with Alan Greenspan Nap? He says Obumacare AKA Oshit, is very, very bad. He says we can't afford it, and it will finish breaking the bank.

 

That is what the BEST Federal reserve chairman of modern times stated, and since he is no longer political, I believe him long before I would believe Obuma or Mitt.

Do you consider "BEST" the pile of shit that stinks the least?

 

He also says we can fix the housing market if we buy and burn houses. That's a great free market solution!!!

[retro-man]

Greenspan, with his "irrational exuberance" and his "nobody saw this coming" turned out to be the Captain Schettino of the Federal Reserve. "The best"?!?!

 

Alan Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chairman, acknowledged in a Congressional hearing last month that he had made an “error” in assuming that the markets would properly regulate themselves, and added that he had no idea a financial disaster was in the making. What’s more, he said the Fed’s own computer models and economic experts simply “did not forecast” the current financial crisis.

However, the Fed and other policymaking agencies cannot honestly claim that no one saw it coming. There is ample evidence that:

• Economists and commentators “saw it coming”; and

• Economists and others repeatedly brought their observations to the attention of the authorities including the Fed, but were ignored.

[RangerM]

Do you consider "BEST" the pile of shit that stinks the least?

 

He also says we can fix the housing market if we buy and burn houses. That's a great free market solution!!!

 

Everyone has the "solution", but it's usually not the best because it involves an interruption in the way things naturally progress by themselves.

 

Buying and burning houses would solve the problem of "too many houses depressing the market", but it adds to the problem of "more debt" and does nothing to address the problem of "overexhuberance in the housing market driving up prices to unsustainable levels" or "mortgage-backed securities".

 

Two solutions promoted for "no health insurance" is to either give people free insurance or socialize the entire system. Yes, this fits the answer to "no health insurance", but it doesn't address the problem of "the growth in the cost of healthcare". Further, it magnifies the problem of "not enough healthcare services to go around".

 

Because there are so many ways that a "solution" can impact things that on the surface seem unrelated, government should tread as lightly as possible.

 

Unfortunately, the people who favor Government-based solutions never get this idea (or worse, attempt things like Obamacare). And as the new problems rear their heads, they play a whack-a-mole version of governing; all the while wondering why the economy slows to a near standstill. (answer: Nobody wants to be "whacked")

[retro-man]

Unfortunately, the people who favor Government-based solutions

That would be who now? THE ENTIRE REST OF THE DEVELOPED WORLD?

never get this idea (or worse, attempt things like Obamacare Romneycare).

(Just to remind where we've seen this basic idea before - you know, the idea that was put forth by the Republican party in 1993, and co-sponsored by such luminaries as Orrin Hatch, Arlen Specter, Ted Stevens, Bob Dole, John Danforth, etc. etc.)

[RangerM]

That would be who now? THE ENTIRE REST OF THE DEVELOPED WORLD?

 

Putting aside that most of the rest of the developed world is in worse shape than we are, what did your mother used to say about your friends jumping off a bridge?

 

(Just to remind where we've seen this basic idea before - you know, the idea that was put forth by the Republican party in 1993, and co-sponsored by such luminaries as Orrin Hatch, Arlen Specter, Ted Stevens, Bob Dole, John Danforth, etc. etc.)

I don't care if 'such luminaries" or even the Republican Party promoted such an idea. Why would you expect me to favor it now, if I didn't favor it then?

 

I fully acknowledge that Romney implemented a similar system, however I also think it's worth considering that in a Federalist system this is perfectly acceptable. There is a difference between a State doing something and the Feds; and it is in no way hypocritical so long as that distinction is made.

Edited July 14, 2012 by RangerM

[retro-man]

Putting aside that most of the rest of the developed world is in worse shape than we are, what did your mother used to say about your friends jumping off a bridge?

 

Among the so-called developed countries, our debt to GDP ratio is surpassed only by Italy, Greece, Portugal, and Japan. LINK The rest of Northern Europe, the UK, Canada, Australia - all countries with national health care - are in better shape than us by that measure, not worse shape (and their populations work less hours per year and enjoy more vacation time). And, as we all know, our health care costs are far far higher, both in absolute terms, and as a percentage of GDP, than anywhere else. LINK

 

 

 

So that argument is weak.

 

 

I don't care if 'such luminaries" or even the Republican Party promoted such an idea. Why would you expect me to favor it now, if I didn't favor it then?

 

I fully acknowledge that Romney implemented a similar system, however I also think it's worth considering that in a Federalist system this is perfectly acceptable. There is a difference between a State doing something and the Feds; and it is in no way hypocritical so long as that distinction is made.

Actually, I don't like the idea that much either. I think we should have a single payer option.

 

The capacity to retain faith in a failed system in the face of all evidence to the contrary is a remarkable thing. I don't know where it comes from. Stubborn pride? Jingoism? Exceptionalism? Whatever it is, I certainly don't have it. Just looks like shooting yourself in the foot to me. And that can get you dropped by your carrier in this country.

Edited July 14, 2012 by retro-man

[RangerM]

So that argument is weak.

I accept that as your opinion, and will leave it there.

The capacity to retain faith in a failed system in the face of all evidence to the contrary is a remarkable thing. I don't know where it comes from.

My faith doesn't lie with man's creation.

 

I'd rather die as free as possible, than live in a cage created by other men claiming to care.

[Versa-Tech]

That would be who now? THE ENTIRE REST OF THE DEVELOPED WORLD? (Just to remind where we've seen this basic idea before - you know, the idea that was put forth by the Republican party in 1993, and co-sponsored by such luminaries as Orrin Hatch, Arlen Specter, Ted Stevens, Bob Dole, John Danforth, etc. etc.)

Heh, John Danforth is my cousin. I don't really talk to that side of the family though... Bunch of greedy dogfood moguls.

[Edstock]

Just looks like shooting yourself in the foot to me. And that can get you dropped by your carrier in this country.

 

A Gopper Paradise!

 

 

Retro, the GOP elite, the gang that run the party and Wall Street must piss themselves laughing at all the supportive noises made by poor conservatives — who actually believe that the Gopper elite really care about them and their values.

[RangerM]

A Gopper Paradise!

 

 

Retro, the GOP elite, the gang that run the party and Wall Street must piss themselves laughing at all the supportive noises made by poor conservatives — who actually believe that the Gopper elite really care about them and their values.

 

I don't know what's more offensive, your constant name-calling or your belief that "poor conservatives" must automatically support the elite as opposed to being able to think for themselves.