Edward Snowden...hero or coward....

[RangerM]

Wow...that's just...sad.

Only if you think you, or an Edward Snowden, or a judge, or anyone else can do anything to stop it.

 

People will rant about it today, and still expect the government to detect every threat tomorrow.

 

Expecting absolute security and absolute privacy/freedom is contradictory. Society hasn't come to terms with that; much the same way so many expect the government to provide so much at no cost.

[FiredMotorCompany]

Only if you think you, or an Edward Snowden, or a judge, or anyone else can do anything to stop it.

 

People will rant about it today, and still expect the government to detect every threat tomorrow.

 

Expecting absolute security and absolute privacy/freedom is contradictory. Society hasn't come to terms with that; much the same way so many expect the government to provide so much at no cost.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security deserve neither and lose both."-Benjamin Franklin

 

It amazes me how easily we surrender the freedoms so many Americans sacrificed their lives, their fortunes , and their sacred honor for to secure them for us today.

 

Do you know a fallen soldier? And if so, do you think he died for nothing? In many ways he and those who preceded him are being cast away as trivialities as we don't feel we owe any respect for their sacrifice. We didn't pay the price for the blessings we have so it is easy to discard them or surrender them.

 

Surrender your freedom, but don't take mine with it!

 

Every headstone in Arlington paid that price. And you put no value on it or are ambivalent to the wasting of their lives.

Edited December 27, 2013 by FiredMotorCompany

[RangerM]

Surrender your freedom, but don't take mine with it!

Until enough are convinced that freedom is worth the sacrifice of a little security, you can count on them taking yours.

 

I am by no means in favor of "big brother", but unfortunately I'm coerced by the rest of the people who continually vote in favor of it.

 

The only solace is my relative obscurity.

[Langston Hughes]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security deserve neither and lose both."-Benjamin Franklin

 

It amazes me how easily we surrender the freedoms so many Americans sacrificed their lives, their fortunes , and their sacred honor for to secure them for us today.

 

Do you know a fallen soldier? And if so, do you think he died for nothing? In many ways he and those who preceded him are being cast away as trivialities as we don't feel we owe any respect for their sacrifice. We didn't pay the price for the blessings we have so it is easy to discard them or surrender them.

 

Surrender your freedom, but don't take mine with it!

 

Every headstone in Arlington paid that price. And you put no value on it or are ambivalent to the wasting of their lives.

 

Yes, because those people who died in Viet Nam or Iraq were there saving us from the evil freedom takers who were threatening to destroy our country and take our freedoms away?

 

Please do tell since your quite the military man there Eagle Scout, how exactly the Viet Cong, NVA or Pathet Lao were going to take out freedoms away here in America? Was Iraq planning to invade and topple our government?

 

You talk like big shit but your nothing more than a bandy rooster popping off on the internet. Your over the top outcrys, 'Surrender your freedoms, but don't take mine' and that bullshit about whether ranger appreciates those that have passed in actual defense of this nation.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Langston Hughes

[Langston Hughes]

Ranger don't mind Fired. He thinks he's the General Patton of the interwebz when really this is all that he is....

 

Edited December 28, 2013 by Langston Hughes

[probowler]

 

Yes, because those people who died in Viet Nam or Iraq were there saving us from the evil freedom takers who were threatening to destroy our country and take our freedoms away?

 

Please do tell since your quite the military man there Eagle Scout, how exactly the Viet Cong, NVA or Pathet Lao were going to take out freedoms away here in America? Was Iraq planning to invade and topple our government?

 

You talk like big shit but your nothing more than a bandy rooster popping off on the internet. Your over the top outcrys, 'Surrender your freedoms, but don't take mine' and that bullshit about whether ranger appreciates those that have passed in actual defense of this nation.

 

Who the FUCK are you to judge who appreciates what? (should I forget that you'd have me censored by the mods, MR. FREEDOM?)

 

 

It's not the soldiers job to deal in Politics... It's his job to fight for the man next to him. To Protect and serve his fellow soldiers in the trenches, and be there when the nation calls to defend his land and countrymen.

 

Now you can dissagree with the politics and ill-intentions behind any war... but that's not on the troops... but the politicians that send them there.

 

Perhaps you're the one who needs a reality check.

[Langston Hughes]

 

 

It's not the soldiers job to deal in Politics... It's his job to fight for the man next to him. To Protect and serve his fellow soldiers in the trenches, and be there when the nation calls to defend his land and countrymen.

 

Now you can dissagree with the politics and ill-intentions behind any war... but that's not on the troops... but the politicians that send them there.

 

Perhaps you're the one who needs a reality check.

 

Thanks for sharing, but I was neither suggesting that soldiers deal in politics or putting any ill intentions on them. I was criticizing one man's (Fired) anguished cries that another (Ranger) is not valuing the freedom when he's just being overly dramatic is all.

 

Thanks for the advice though as poor as it was.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Langston Hughes

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

Thanks for sharing, but I was neither suggesting that soldiers deal in politics or putting any ill intentions on them. I was criticizing one man's (Fired) anguished cries that another (Ranger) is not valuing the freedom when he's just being overly dramatic is all.

 

Thanks for the advice though as poor as it was.

So Viet Nam and Iraq casualties are acceptable because they didn't fight the British in the Revolutionary War?

 

In your world, I'm sure.

 

In my world, those are all to be revered for defending the country and it's interests. The politicians are the ones who determine the actions to be taken. And if you or your ilk think less of those who fought in Nam or Iraq because you didn't believe in their mission, blame those who sent them.

 

But surrendering those hard won victories and even those loses that we suffered to stand for what we thought was right, is cowardly and pathetic.

[FiredMotorCompany]

Until enough are convinced that freedom is worth the sacrifice of a little security, you can count on them taking yours.

 

I am by no means in favor of "big brother", but unfortunately I'm coerced by the rest of the people who continually vote in favor of it.

 

The only solace is my relative obscurity.

Langsdon Hughes alludes to the effect that I was attacking you, Ranger. And it may have come across that way when I was intending to address the audience as a whole.

 

You have always participated with a great deal of candor and curtsey. I wasn't intending to attack you personally as much as emphasize how I feel that we, as a country, give away things too easily that we didn't personally purchase.

 

As in our UAW contracts, I've seen the union surrender benefits that were won in bloody battle, in exchange for a signing bonus. But, since the members who got the check didn't bleed on the bridge, per se, they cash in for a quick buck today without duly realizing they will never regain what they gave away. And will sign-off on closing multiple other plants....as long as they got a new product and some cash for a jet-ski or snowmobile. And those are comments I have been told directly.

Edited December 28, 2013 by FiredMotorCompany

[twintornados]

 

You're beyond naive to think that if he stayed here he wouldn't just be thrown in a cell to be forgotten about or suddenly in an "accident". Our government, and the media going along with it, has no issues with performing character assassination to those who leak the truth. Bradley Manning is a confused she-male, Julian Assange is a sex-crazed rapist....the media latches onto that.

 

Snowden is literally provided facts about what we suspected all along being true that our government is spying on us and allies, abusing power and manipulating the global economy. In the beginning the media focused on him leaving his hot girlfriend. He's given himself immunity in that if he's killed or disappears for a certain length all the info is released. He didn't pick Russia, he's tried to go to a few places that would take him but couldn't find safe passage.

 

Guy is a hero, and he's playing the game exactly how he should to stay alive and keep the message out there because he knows what will happen to him.

Sorry...I don't prescribe to that "logic"...has actions, while heroic are tarnished by his cowardly actions of hiding behind Putin's skirt....if you believe in what you are doing, then act like it!

[fmccap]

 

 

 

Please do tell since your quite the military man there Eagle Scout, how exactly the Viet Cong, NVA or Pathet Lao were going to take out freedoms away here in America? Was Iraq planning to invade and topple our government?

 

 

Let's inject LH logic!

 

It was OK to invade Iraq since Democrats started Korea and Vietnam. Were either of them going to invade the US and topple our government?

 

How about Clinton? He sent troops to Haiti, Somalia, and the former Yugoslavia. Were they going to invade and topple the US?

[Langston Hughes]

So Viet Nam and Iraq casualties are acceptable because they didn't fight the British in the Revolutionary War?

 

In your world, I'm sure.

 

In my world, those are all to be revered for defending the country and it's interests. The politicians are the ones who determine the actions to be taken. And if you or your ilk think less of those who fought in Nam or Iraq because you didn't believe in their mission, blame those who sent them.

 

But surrendering those hard won victories and even those loses that we suffered to stand for what we thought was right, is cowardly and pathetic.

 

The only difference between you and I about the deaths of soldiers is that i'm not creating romantic myths about why these good men and women died. Your accusations about my finding them less anything is fucking bullshit.

[Langston Hughes]

Let's inject LH logic!

 

It was OK to invade Iraq since Democrats started Korea and Vietnam. Were either of them going to invade the US and topple our government?

 

How about Clinton? He sent troops to Haiti, Somalia, and the former Yugoslavia. Were they going to invade and topple the US?

 

Nice Straw man. However that's not my logic or what I said.

 

 

If you wish to know my opinion on those conflicts then ask, but don't make bullshit assumptions.

 

And Somalia was Bush 41 not Clinton. You do know that Bush initially sent the troops to Somalia right?

[fmccap]

 

Nice Straw man. However that's not my logic or what I said.

No that's the BS logic you give for anything Obummer does.

[Langston Hughes]

No that's the BS logic you give for anything Obummer does.

 

Nope, it's just a bullshit straw man that you made up. Nice try though . You got that going for you, which is nice.

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

The only difference between you and I about the deaths of soldiers is that i'm not creating romantic myths about why these good men and women died. Your accusations about my finding them less anything is fucking bullshit.

I do get under your skin, don't I?

 

How do you feel about those 10,000 Americans who have died in Iraq?

Would you walk away from any/all of anything accomplished during their service there, thereby wasting their lives?

And why don't we pull out of Korea, and allow the North and South fight it out. Thereby wasting the lives lost fighting to push back the North and holding the line?

Or Afghanistan? How about if we had just walked away from the pursuit of Osama Bin Laden? Those lives lost in the fight against Al Qaeda? If we just drop our efforts and let them have their way, what did we gain from their deaths?

 

Go ahead, use gutter language and personal attacks. Your freedom of speech was paid for you by those who came before. You can say what you want against the government, using rights paid for in other's blood.

[fmccap]

 

Nope, it's just a bullshit straw man that you made up. Nice try though . You got that going for you, which is nice.

Deflection

[the_spaniard]

How do you feel about those 10,000 Americans who have died in Iraq?

Would you walk away from any/all of anything accomplished during their service there, thereby wasting their lives?

 

There are many people (including vets of that war) that feel it was a massive waste of American lives. Thinking that somehow a Christian army occupying a Holy land at war for thousands of years (to stabilize it?) would work is American arrogance at it's worst. This year, the number of civilians killed in Iraq due to Sunni-Shiite conflict is back at 2008 levels and climbing. Are we going to go back?

 

Or Afghanistan? How about if we had just walked away from the pursuit of Osama Bin Laden? Those lives lost in the fight against Al Qaeda? If we just drop our efforts and let them have their way, what did we gain from their deaths?

 

 

 

Bin Laden was the only real reason to be in the region.

 

Your freedom of speech was paid for you by those who came before. You can say what you want against the government, using rights paid for in other's blood.

 

 

Not by anyone dying in Iraq. No one was defending his freedoms there. That is propaganda.

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

There are many people (including vets of that war) that feel it was a massive waste of American lives. Thinking that somehow a Christian army occupying a Holy land at war for thousands of years (to stabilize it?) would work is American arrogance at it's worst. This year, the number of civilians killed in Iraq due to Sunni-Shiite conflict is back at 2008 levels and climbing. Are we going to go back?

 

 

 

Bin Laden was the only real reason to be in the region.

 

 

Not by anyone dying in Iraq. No one was defending his freedoms there. That is propaganda.

I am not defending the battles they fought. Rather, I am decrying the waste of their lives for something/anything gained, then abandoned. THAT is the waste I am referring to.

 

Bin Laden wasn't THE ONLY reason. It was the complicity of the Afghan government and tacit support.

 

I am not solely concerned with implicit freedom when the blood shed for a cause is abandoned.

 

Pick your fights carefully. But, if we decide to enter the fight, BY GOD, go in to win, and hold your gains with the value of the blood spilled as their worth. Not political pandering and posturing to be discarded when it gets you re-elected or props up your polling numbers.

 

I am more than a little concerned how those who hate a particular war are so willing to discard the lives lost by our brave military who were sent into harms way, not by their own choice, other than standing up and volunteering to defend the country and it's interests, as they are understood. And because the war was hated, the opponents of the war are too willing to wash their hands of the price paid.

Edited December 29, 2013 by FiredMotorCompany

[All-Or-Nothing]

Why is Snowden still breathing?????

[RangerM]

Langsdon Hughes alludes to the effect that I was attacking you, Ranger. And it may have come across that way when I was intending to address the audience as a whole.

Read too quickly, I can see how it could be taken either way. I take/took no offense to your post.

[the_spaniard]

Pick your fights carefully. But, if we decide to enter the fight, BY GOD, go in to win, and hold your gains with the value of the blood spilled as their worth. Not political pandering and posturing to be discarded when it gets you re-elected or props up your polling numbers.

 

I certainly agree with you there.

 

In my mind it's not about washing your hands, but about calling a turkey a turkey. IMO the war in Iraq accomplished very little when you consider the losses of our men and women in the field. Iraq will likely plunge into full-blown civil war and likely see more power grabs from more Saddams. It is the nature of the region. Knowing that we did very little doesn't make me discard those that were lost, but mourn them more. I know many folks in IVAW that feel the same way - the lack of benefits (real or perceived) is the sting.

 

Its that waste of lives that makes me very critical of our elected morons on both sides that are so eager to send more people that serve their country into harms way (be it in Iran, NK, or wherever). My vote is to stay out of the ME, and let the chips fall where they may. Bring our troops home and make a two-year enlistment mandatory for everyone in this country after high school - no one gets a pass, but everyone earns money for college or technical training.

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

I certainly agree with you there.

 

In my mind it's not about washing your hands, but about calling a turkey a turkey. IMO the war in Iraq accomplished very little when you consider the losses of our men and women in the field. Iraq will likely plunge into full-blown civil war and likely see more power grabs from more Saddams. It is the nature of the region. Knowing that we did very little doesn't make me discard those that were lost, but mourn them more. I know many folks in IVAW that feel the same way - the lack of benefits (real or perceived) is the sting.

 

Its that waste of lives that makes me very critical of our elected morons on both sides that are so eager to send more people that serve their country into harms way (be it in Iran, NK, or wherever). My vote is to stay out of the ME, and let the chips fall where they may. Bring our troops home and make a two-year enlistment mandatory for everyone in this country after high school - no one gets a pass, but everyone earns money for college or technical training.

Where would we be if we had taken no action in Afghanistan when the government was abetting OBL and their training camps?

While I prefer the isolationist view....to a degree, I can't help but think Al Qaeda would have become far stronger than they are today without the interference cause by our military actions in country. And a stronger, more powerful and better supported Al Qaeda is a direct threat to the US and our interests...worldwide. I concede that things could/should have been done better, but inaction would have been much worse. Including the innocent lives and military casualties, in the long run.

[RangerM]

Bring our troops home and make a two-year enlistment mandatory for everyone in this country after high school - no one gets a pass, but everyone earns money for college or technical training.

There are approximately 3+ million HS graduates every year in the U.S. The current size of the U.S. Military is about 1.5 million.

 

It would cost a fortune if you were to quadruple/quintuple the size of the military, and for doing what? You say they'd earn money for college or technical training, but unless they're out there doing something other than running PT drills, I see little to be gained.

 

Notwithstanding there are HS graduates (and I'll include drop-outs, too) out there who you'd prefer to keep away from the automatic weapons.

Edited December 30, 2013 by RangerM

[napfirst]

There are approximately 3+ million HS graduates every year in the U.S. The current size of the U.S. Military is about 1.5 million.

 

It would cost a fortune if you were to quadruple/quintuple the size of the military, and for doing what? You say they'd earn money for college or technical training, but unless they're out there doing something other than running PT drills, I see little to be gained.

 

Notwithstanding there are HS graduates (and I'll include drop-outs, too) out there who you'd prefer to keep away from the automatic weapons.

Exactly right...and because there would be a continuous supply of people coming into the military there would be a need to push people out to maintain "affordable" levels and in the process less people would move up into leadership positions and ultimaetly weakening our military.