Why I fled libertarianism — and became a liberal - Salon.com

[Detroit_Driver]

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/28/why_i_fled_libertarianism_and_became_a_liberal/

this is a very interesting read

[RangerM]

So he went from believing in small government to supporting large government based on the actions of other people?

 

Sounds like he was the member of a club more than a supporter of a political ideology.

[FiredMotorCompany]

So he went from believing in small government to supporting large government based on the actions of other people?

 

Sounds like he was the member of a club more than a supporter of a political ideology.

Or not very committed to his convictions.

I try to remain open to a better approach, but I don't change with the winds of the day. I am confident of my opinions and views, but a compelling approach can give me a reason to reconsider.

There just hasn't been any that have reached that bar. And I couldn't care less if I am the only one who holds a particular view. Consensus is not the de facto correct view. Often, it's only the result of some willingness to accept others views for one's own because it's easier to trust someone you hold in esteem than go against the flow and face the scorn of the consensus group. And consensus includes accepting portions of the group view that you disagree with, but accepted in order to earn validation from the crowd.

[Langston Hughes]

No your just not going to change.

 

[phil1336]

Or not very committed to his convictions.

I try to remain open to a better approach, but I don't change with the winds of the day. I am confident of my opinions and views, but a compelling approach can give me a reason to reconsider.

There just hasn't been any that have reached that bar. And I couldn't care less if I am the only one who holds a particular view. Consensus is not the de facto correct view. Often, it's only the result of some willingness to accept others views for one's own because it's easier to trust someone you hold in esteem than go against the flow and face the scorn of the consensus group. And consensus includes accepting portions of the group view that you disagree with, but accepted in order to earn validation from the crowd.

Consensus is (not) the de facto correct view. Thank goodness for that. American History has shown that the consensus was to embrace Slavery, Child Labor, Prohibition, Withhold the right of Women to Vote and Own Property, and a host of other (now) illegal and discriminatory practices. Wonder if it was Conservative or Progressive movements that led to that change? Some still long for the "good old days". Speaking of "commitment" odd that John Kerry was tarred and feathered as a "Flip Flopper" when he ran for President as some of his views had (evolved). Much was made of those attitude changes. Mitt Romney who had completely swung around 180 degrees on (every) issue since his time as a very (moderate) Republican Governor in an extreme very Blue State, Massachusetts suddenly attempts to transform himself into a lunatic Conservative Tea Party darling with little success yet little was made of his "Flip Flop" other then being labeled, Mr Etch a Sketch.

[napfirst]

Consensus is (not) the de facto correct view. Thank goodness for that. American History has shown that the consensus was to embrace Slavery, Child Labor, Prohibition, Withhold the right of Women to Vote and Own Property, and a host of other (now) illegal and discriminatory practices. Wonder if it was Conservative or Progressive movements that led to that change? Some still long for the "good old days". Speaking of "commitment" odd that John Kerry was tarred and feathered as a "Flip Flopper" when he ran for President as some of his views had (evolved). Much was made of those attitude changes. Mitt Romney who had completely swung around 180 degrees on (every) issue since his time as a very (moderate) Republican Governor in an extreme very Blue State, Massachusetts suddenly attempts to transform himself into a lunatic Conservative Tea Party darling with little success yet little was made of his "Flip Flop" other then being labeled, Mr Etch a Sketch.

Here's a good read for you:

 

Capitalization Rules

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp

[Langston Hughes]

When they don't have the answers it's time to focus on grammar.

[Detroit_Driver]

When they don't have the answers it's time to focus on grammar.

It seems that way at times.

[Detroit_Driver]

So he went from believing in small government to supporting large government based on the actions of other people?

 

Sounds like he was the member of a club more than a supporter of a political ideology.

I don't know, but his discription of the Tea Party members, who he was observing, are a lot like my neighbors that I know to be Tea Pary supporters.

[napfirst]

When they don't have the answers it's time to focus on grammar.

No, just trying to help the poor dolt .......his rant makes no sense....don't know why I should expect any less.....your posse is embarrassing you...

[RangerM]

I don't know, but his discription of the Tea Party members, who he was observing, are a lot like my neighbors that I know to be Tea Pary supporters.

It's possible to be a Libertarian, Conservative, or Republican without thinking of yourself as a "Tea Party" member, just as the opposite is true. On how many issues do self-described Liberals/Democrats and Tea Partiers really disagree, anyway? (It's certainly not all of them)

 

People also need to remember that "Tea Party" does NOT equal racist. (no matter how many times I've heard that accusation Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true.)

 

Regardless, I've heard plenty of self-identified Democrats say "nigger". That doesn't mean I lump the liberals/Democrats reading this with them.

 

People need to be identified as individuals.

Edited December 31, 2013 by RangerM

[FiredMotorCompany]

I don't know, but his discription of the Tea Party members, who he was observing, are a lot like my neighbors that I know to be Tea Pary supporters.

And what effect on your opinion of the article would have resulted if you didn't have those neighbors or you did not see similarities to those described in the article?

 

Conformational bias is insidious. We are all affected at times and constant diligence is required.

[Langston Hughes]

No, just trying to help the poor dolt .......his rant makes no sense....don't know why I should expect any less.....your posse is embarrassing you...

 

My posse??? You don't see me "liking" his posts do you? But you've "liked" some really badly written rants by your buddies.

[napfirst]

 

My posse??? You don't see me "liking" his posts do you? But you've "liked" some really badly written rants by your buddies.

I noticed you were quick to come to his "aid"......and he's normally spewing the same BS as you....

[grbeck]

I am so relieved that Salon.com is on the case of those terrible libertarians.

 

The fact that libertarians, and their favored policies, have had nothing to do with the collapse of Detroit, the fiscal woes of high-tax states such as California and Illinois, continued high unemployment, the fiscal calamity happening in several European countries, and problems with this country's new federal health care act and its rollout, is entirely irrelevant.

 

Help me here - which party controls the White House and one branch of Congress? Which party controls the other branch of Congress? Which party ran Detroit? Which party has been in charge of the governor's office in California and Illinois? Which party has controlled the legislature in those respective states? Which party has headed the governments of Ireland, Greece, Spain, France and Portugal? Which party drafted the new federal health care law and passed it without a single vote from a member of any other party?

 

Is the Libertarian Party the answer to any of those questions?

 

The article is a nice way to start off 2014 with a laugh. This paragraph of the article, in particular, is hysterical:

 

"And boy, was it a circus. Many members of the group were obsessed with the gold standard, the Kennedy assassination and the Fed. Although Libertarians believe government is incompetent, many of them subscribe to the most fringe conspiracy theories imaginable. Airplanes are poisoning America with chemicals (chemtrails) or the moon landings were faked. Nothing was too far out. A great many of them really think that 9-11 was an inside job. Even while basking in the electoral mainstream, the movement was overflowing with obvious hokum."

 

Is he really dumb enough to believe that only Libertarians have a fringe element to the party? Does he believe that all Truthers, for example, are Libertarians? Has he forgotten the content of the sermons of the lead pastor of a Chicago-based church that was regularly attended by the current occupant of the White House? I seem to recall a fair amount of conspiracy theories in those sermons, along with a healthy dose of anti-Semitism.

Edited January 2, 2014 by grbeck

[FiredMotorCompany]

As a reminder, the best of the two party system is what got us here.

[Ron W.]

As a reminder, the best of the two party system is what got us here.

 

Fixed

[FiredMotorCompany]

 

Fixed

Point taken. I was emphasizing that both sides got their way...at times. And by "best of" I meant when each party got their turns in office.

[Langston Hughes]

I noticed you were quick to come to his "aid"......and he's normally spewing the same BS as you....

 

No, I just think the grammar Nazi shit is overplayed.

[Langston Hughes]

I am so relieved that Salon.com is on the case of those terrible libertarians.

 

The fact that libertarians, and their favored policies, have had nothing to do with the collapse of Detroit, the fiscal woes of high-tax states such as California and Illinois, continued high unemployment, the fiscal calamity happening in several European countries, and problems with this country's new federal health care act and its rollout, is entirely irrelevant.

 

Help me here - which party controls the White House and one branch of Congress? Which party controls the other branch of Congress? Which party ran Detroit? Which party has been in charge of the governor's office in California and Illinois? Which party has controlled the legislature in those respective states? Which party has headed the governments of Ireland, Greece, Spain, France and Portugal? Which party drafted the new federal health care law and passed it without a single vote from a member of any other party?

 

Is the Libertarian Party the answer to any of those questions?

 

The article is a nice way to start off 2014 with a laugh. This paragraph of the article, in particular, is hysterical:

 

"And boy, was it a circus. Many members of the group were obsessed with the gold standard, the Kennedy assassination and the Fed. Although Libertarians believe government is incompetent, many of them subscribe to the most fringe conspiracy theories imaginable. Airplanes are poisoning America with chemicals (chemtrails) or the moon landings were faked. Nothing was too far out. A great many of them really think that 9-11 was an inside job. Even while basking in the electoral mainstream, the movement was overflowing with obvious hokum."

 

Is he really dumb enough to believe that only Libertarians have a fringe element to the party? Does he believe that all Truthers, for example, are Libertarians? Has he forgotten the content of the sermons of the lead pastor of a Chicago-based church that was regularly attended by the current occupant of the White House? I seem to recall a fair amount of conspiracy theories in those sermons, along with a healthy dose of anti-Semitism.

 

 

 

There is a point that infowars types lean very heavily towards libertarians.

 

And please go into exactly what sermon's you feel are "Conspiracy theories" by Pastor Wright.

 

 

I'm certain that the "God Damn America" will be first and foremost as if you conservatives have read it, or heard all of it. But what did he say then that was untrue? Talking about the Tuskegee experiments? Or his mention of Pearl Harbor or the Gulf of Tonkin? What conspiracies are we going to discuss?

[FiredMotorCompany]

Liberalism -- -- Straw spun from gold.

Conservatism -- The horseshit you clean out of that straw.

 

Just read your signature, LH.

 

How true. Liberalism turns gold into straw. And you clean that straw away and you have conservatism.

 

How could you not consider conservatism to be horsesh*t if you'd turn gold into straw? You're working the problem backwards.

[grbeck]

 

There is a point that infowars types lean very heavily towards libertarians.

 

And please go into exactly what sermon's you feel are "Conspiracy theories" by Pastor Wright.

 

 

I'm certain that the "God Damn America" will be first and foremost as if you conservatives have read it, or heard all of it. But what did he say then that was untrue? Talking about the Tuskegee experiments? Or his mention of Pearl Harbor or the Gulf of Tonkin? What conspiracies are we going to discuss?

 

If the only evidence was that notorious sermon, you might have a point. But unfortunately, for you, the loquacious Pastor Wright hasn't been able to keep his mouth shut.

 

The good Pastor has endorsed a book that claims that the AIDS virus was invented by white people. He has recommended the book, Emerging Viruses: AIDS and Ebola: Nature, Accident, or Intentional? (1996), a screed by Leonard G. Horowitz, a conspiracy theorist and former dentist, who argues that HIV began as a biological weapons project. (There's one conspiracy theory he endorses.)

 

According to Pastor Wright, African-Americans "have a different meter, and Africans have a different tonality. Europeans have seven tones, Africans have five. White people clap differently than black people. Africans and African-Americans are right-brained, subject-oriented in their learning style. They have a different way of learning."

 

Now, if Rush Limbaugh or even this board's General Matthis had said this...

 

Pastor Wright has endorsed the thoroughly discredited Afrocentric view on cultural achievements, and, through his church-associated Kwame Nkrumah Academy, taught children that "[h]istorically, Europeans tried to build themselves up by tearing down all that Africans had done." (There's the second conspiracy theory.)

 

Members of his church have published books blaming interracial marriage for the plight of black boys. Imagine if a Klan member had blamed interracial marriage for the plight of lower-class white boys - the author of this article, and the rest of the Salon staff, would be frothing at the mouth. (There's the third conspiracy theory - and this is from one church!)

 

The Salon article condemns the libertarian movement in part based on the beliefs of its fringe element. The author basically claims that this is what drove him to become a liberal.

 

As they say, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Or, people in glass houses should not be the first to throw stones. People can lob stones right back at them. Which is what's happening here.

[napfirst]

 

No, I just think the grammar Nazi shit is overplayed.

I bet you do.....you seem to be challenged in that area....and you don't like hits to the ole EGO......

[Langston Hughes]

I bet you do.....you seem to be challenged in that area....and you don't like hits to the ole EGO......

 

LOL. It doesn't hurt my ego, I just think that "poisoning the well" is bullshit.

 

I'm aware of my flaws and comfortable with them.

 

Besides, your hypocritical in how you apply it. Have you read IMA's posts, they are as grammatically incorrect as anyone's and all we here from you is silence about it.

[Langston Hughes]

 

Just read your signature, LH.

 

How true. Liberalism turns gold into straw. And you clean that straw away and you have conservatism.

 

How could you not consider conservatism to be horsesh*t if you'd turn gold into straw? You're working the problem backwards.

 

You are once again missing the point. I take it you know little about farming?

 

It's a play on someone else's signature and He says that it's gold turned into straw. I say that if you have ever worked a farm you know that straw is used for bedding. It has a purpose, a job to do if you will, to contain the horseshit (that is conservatism) and make it so that it can be cleaned out easily with getting all over the horse.

 

So if liberalism is straw then at least it makes cleaning up the horseshit (Conservatism) easier.