Yet another study shows plug-in hybrids aren’t as clean as we thought

[Rick73]

Petrol hybrid getting 134 MPG equivalent, or 4 miles per kWh on electricity may be overstated, making discussion somewhat interesting, but at end of day, making source of electricity greener seems most important.  Differences between countries, for example, really highlight that going electric in France is almost 10 times lower CO2 than Germany (only considering charging, not vehicle manufacturing), and even less when compared to Poland.  France has been heavily dependent on nuclear and it is reflected in much lower CO2 per kWh.

 

 

 

 

[silvrsvt]

15 hours ago, akirby said:

You can’t make conclusions about plugging in or not plugging in based on fuel economy alone.  You must know how many miles are driven each day and they aren’t measuring that.

 

We already argued that point...that information is being collected by the OBFCM

 

https://green-driving.jrc.ec.europa.eu/JRCmatics_Monitoring_Fuel_Consumption_from_OBD

 

Which collects the following:

Quote

 

What is OBFCM: According to recent EU regulations, the vehicle should have available specific fuel-consumption related quantities at the OBD port of the vehicle, such as total driven distance, total fuel consumed or (in case of Plug-in Hybrid vehicles) total energy recharged from the electrical grid.

 

What do we use the data for: Fuel consumption on the road might deviate significantly from the official values communicated to the users. We are collecting data to help us improve consumer information and to feed future regulations.

 

What do we monitor: Driving instantaneous parameters (every second):

Speed
Engine speed (rpm)
Engine load
Instantaneous fuel consumption

and lifetime parameters from OBFCM:

Total driven distance (km)
Total fuel consumed (L)
Total energy recharged from the electrical grid (only Plug-in Hybrid vehicles)

 

 

It doesn't matter if its being driven 250 or 50 miles because it is still showing a large difference between what it should be getting going by testing. If someone isn't plugging in their car or as much as they should, the total use of fuel will be higher.

[Texasota]

13 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

If someone isn't plugging in their car or as much as they should, the total use of fuel will be higher.

Well, that is a no brainer. More highway miles, such as when I drive from Minnesota to Florida, results in more fuel consumption. During my drive 98.3% of the 1750 miles are in hybrid mode for which I averaged close to 40 MPG. Only a glutton for punishment would charge a PHEV on a highway trip.

 

When at home most of my driving is city EV miles. And if I drive 1750 miles in the city I am using almost no fuel. Speculation on my part, but I think this is how most owners use their PHEVs. My PHEV driving style is not unique.

 

Ford marketing recently said, in regards to the Ranger PHEV, that PHEVs are the "best of both worlds" for customers. It would appear an increasing number of customers agree.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

We already argued that point...that information is being collected by the OBFCM

 

https://green-driving.jrc.ec.europa.eu/JRCmatics_Monitoring_Fuel_Consumption_from_OBD

 

Which collects the following:

 

It doesn't matter if it’s being driven 250 or 50 miles because it is still showing a large difference between what it should be getting going by testing. If someone isn't plugging in their car or as much as they should, the total use of fuel will be higher.

Whether it’s collected or not, that was not used in the report.  The only thing they used is the avg fuel economy (liters per 100 Km) and they calculated CO2 based on that.  
 

I’m not arguing any more until you can acknowledge that point.  All they measured was overall fuel economy.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

It doesn't matter if its being driven 250 or 50 miles because it is still showing a large difference between what it should be getting going by testing. If someone isn't plugging in their car or as much as they should, the total use of fuel will be higher.

But it does matter if you drive a lot of miles per day.   The WLTP assumed that you plug in every night and you never drive more than 40 miles without recharging, thus you’re operating in EV mode 75% of the time.  That’s the utility factor used in the WLTP estimates.  Assuming a 30 mile EV range.  If you get 40 mpg without the battery then you drove 40 miles and only used .25 gallons for the last 10 miles.  Thats 160 mpg.  That is the estimate to which the real world data was compared.

 

Now let’s say you plug in every night but you drive 110 miles per day.  The first 30 are on battery so 80 miles on gas which consumes 2 gallons.  Thats only 55 mpg or 1/3 of what the WLTP predicted.  Is it because I didn’t plug in or because I drove a lot more miles that they expected every day.

 

Surely you can understand this.

[Schpark]

I can understand....and don't call me Shirley.

[Rick73]

20 hours ago, akirby said:

But it does matter if you drive a lot of miles per day.   The WLTP assumed that you plug in every night and you never drive more than 40 miles without recharging, thus you’re operating in EV mode 75% of the time.  That’s the utility factor used in the WLTP estimates.  Assuming a 30 mile EV range.  If you get 40 mpg without the battery then you drove 40 miles and only used .25 gallons for the last 10 miles.  Thats 160 mpg.  That is the estimate to which the real world data was compared.

 

Now let’s say you plug in every night but you drive 110 miles per day.  The first 30 are on battery so 80 miles on gas which consumes 2 gallons.  Thats only 55 mpg or 1/3 of what the WLTP predicted.  Is it because I didn’t plug in or because I drove a lot more miles that they expected every day.

 

Surely you can understand this.

In above examples, why not include CO2 from all-electric driving during first 30 miles?  The first 30 miles are zero “tailpipe” but not zero overall.  The table on previous page included data.  Obviously 160 MPG is too high since it exceeds all-electric rating. 😂 

 

Just kidding — not trying to nitpick.  I also understand your point and it’s time to move on since much of this doesn’t solve biggest problems anyway.