Parked next to a new Fusion....

[partsisparts]

Sort of like the Escort--->Focus, Tempo--->Contour, and Taurus--->Fusion name transformations, eh?

 

Hold the flames.... I know that all those name switches weren't just because the preceding model were lemons. BUT.... as the owner of two of those models and knowing many people who owned the others, each came with their own set of "quality baggage" that Ford was MORE than happy to leave behind as the new name took/takes off. That cannot be denied.

First off, I purchased my Spectra through an exclusive KIA dealer. There's at least 3 of them in the metro-Detroit area that I'm aware of.

 

Secondly, this info is per the American International Automobile Dealers Assoc. (AIADA) website back in Sept 2005:

 

http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=48618

 

MB = Marty Bernstein, Editor of AIADA

PB = Peter Butterfield, CEO of KIA NA at the time.

 

MB: How many dealers does Kia have in the U.S.?

 

PB: We have 650. The really significant thing we committed to our dealer organization four years ago was that we were not going to add more dealers. Four years ago we had 610 or 620 dealers and our volume is up dramatically and we are holding the same number of dealers. Our business strategy is to drive through put up, not drive volume by adding stores. So far we have been successful with this.

 

MB: What was the time period of conversation/switch to exclusive dealerships?

 

PB: The program, called the Circle of Excellence program was launched in April of 2003 and over 24 months. I don’t think, Marty, that any manufacturer ever has shifted their dealer network that dramatically from duals to exclusive.

 

MB: That represents a hefty investment per store doesn’t it?

 

PB: Yes, it’s a $3 to $5 million dollar investment per store. But we were able to move quickly because the dealer body trusted us when we said, “We are going to grow our volume, but not by adding dealerships.†This created an environment that was a low risk, but high reward investment opportunity. We have stuck to our word and have not added more dealers.

 

MB: I’ve never, ever heard of such a quick turnaround …

 

PB: We are very proud that our retailers responded so quickly and dramatically to the Kia franchise. That is, I believe, one of the key reasons why we are accelerating growth now. We are delivering most of our cars through exclusive dealerships.

 

MB: Changes in the dealer organization structure and organization usually foster acrimonious, confrontational relationships with dealers which results in lots of law suits – did this happen to Kia?

 

PB: We had 40 exclusive dealers in 2003. We now have 400! Without one lawsuit; not one litigation, not one challenge filed. We were very sensitive when we rolled out the program and involved our dealer council and the entire dealer body for more than one year of work before the program was introduced. In February of 2002, when I took over as CEO of Kia, I told the dealers we were going to require exclusivity in the future.

 

MB: That caused a little tension, didn’t it?

 

PB: Not really. The dealers knew for a year it was coming. I worked with the dealer council before it was introduced and went on the road to talk to our dealers in 10 cities. I told them what we planned on doing, and asked them what they thought about it? We sat and discussed it in every major Kia market in the country. Two months later we announced we were going to do it. We involved every key dealer in America eight months before we launched. Changes had been made based on their input. By the time they saw it, they knew it. There were zero issues in implementation. It was a very friendly dealer way to launch a major change initiative. The success has been proven.

 

 

I think that there's a very good chance that both the overall resale values and safety ratings will climb on KIAs as the remainder of their model line is updated over the next 12 months.

 

Out of curiousity, what year did you last sell KIAs? I suspect that much of what you describe is anchored in the reality of the late '90s, but I encourage you to visit one of the dedicated dealerships described above and look over the new product line over before you deem purchasers "credit criminals".

 

Brain dead or not, Dan Lienert isn't the only making statements similar to this:

 

"The Watch List

-- Hyundai and Kia: Sales will continue to go up, more upscale customers will come to the brands, and Toyota will continue to fear the Koreans more than any other competitors."

 

http://www.forbes.com/2005/12/12/automotiv...automotive.html

 

also.....

 

January 8, 2006

 

DETROIT (Reuters) - South Korea's Kia Motors would aim for a double-digit percentage rise in U.S. vehicle sales this year driven by six new product offerings including the all-new Sedona and Optima models, extending its growth streak to a 13th year, the chief operating officer of its U.S. operations said.

 

In 2005, Kia sold 275,851 vehicles in the United States, up 2.5 percent, for a market share of 1.6 percent.

 

That makes the fledgling South Korean brand bigger than Japan's Mazda Motor Corp., Mitsubishi Motors Corp. and Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd.'s Subaru brand.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/20...s_sales_growth/

Yep, yep, yep. The ranks of "credit criminals" must just be a swellin' out there!

-Ovaltine

To answer your question I last sold them in 2002. You think that there resale value will grow in time? What are you basing this on? I live in Jersey and New York where their is not 1 exclusive Kia dealer anywhere around. But your post explains why. There is only 400 exclusive dealers, an average of 8 per state. Wow, they are taking over! Kia has also been in this country since 94 so they are not "fledgling" any more. The only reason they are still around is because Hyundai bought them or they would be amongst the ranks of Yugo. Saturn has been around since 92 to compare, yes I know the General is behind them, but if thet did not sell, Oldsmobile would still be here and saturn would be gone. At 275,851 cars, Ford sold that many F-150s by the end of April. Now that's competition. As far as the growth streak goes it seems there is no other place but up. Is Toyota worried about the Koreans? Yes because they own their own shipping line and steel mills and have big backing from the Korean Gov't.

[Ovaltine]

......The only reason they are still around is because Hyundai bought them or they would be amongst the ranks of Yugo.

I agree with you on this point. When looking at the Ford Festiva, Ford Aspire, and the early Sephias and Sportages, I see a company that is no where near "ready for prime time" in the U.S. I wouldn't have touched any of them with a 10 foot pole. A few folks on here will find it hard to believe, but up until 2 years ago if someone would have told me I'd be driving a KIA, I would have said they were nuts. But then lo and behold, Car and Driver after blasting the prev-gen Spectra (a pre-Hyundai merger design) a year or so earlier, writes an article that says they can't get over what a turn-around the next gen car is. The article basically says that at the beginning of the test that they aren't expecting much from the "new" car. But that all changes soon after they take delivery and start driving it.

 

What caught my eye in the article were these 3 paragraphs:

"Rounding out the long list of standard features are an adjustable steering wheel, a CD stereo with six speakers, a 60/40 split-folding rear seat, and variable intermittent wipers. All of these niceties complement an interior that offers 97 cubic feet of passenger space—more than any of its competitors, and even outdoing some upscale Euros, such as the Volvo S60 and the Audi A4."

 

"Speaking of the A4, the Spectra appears to have knocked off the Audi’s hind end, wearing similar wedgelike taillights and a sloping trunklid. You could also argue that the Spectra knocked off the Audi’s quality standards; the new car’s panel gaps are minute. Its doors close with a comforting thud, and its interior fit and finish is premium. This is not your cousin’s friend’s Kia."

 

"On the highway, the cabin is a place of Lexus-like serenity. The ride is smooth yet never feels like the dampers have been swapped for wet sponges. The loosey-goosey steering sense is gone, replaced with an effort and feel that clearly relays the front tires’ attitude. And the brakes offer up a firm and reassuring pedal feel. A switchback sign is now an invitation, not a warning."

 

http://stage.caranddriver.com/article.asp?...article_id=8206

 

After a year and half of driving and 18k miles later, I can honestly attest to the above being absolutely true, in addition to the other facts and opinions C&D shared in the attached article.

 

And in regards to your reference to Hyundai, it is precisely this new alliance that makes me believe that the combination of the two companies is going make a formidable team in the low to rapidly increasing mid range market. I read a article recently that said that the brand KIA buyers consider most when purchasing (besides Hyundai) is Chevrolet! Probably due to the direct competition to Cobalts and Aveo's. The new Optimas and the Malibus will be a pretty good match-up too.

 

Is Toyota worried about the Koreans? Yes because they own their own shipping line and steel mills and have big backing from the Korean Gov't.

Again I agree with you. This is another one of the more obscure reasons that I think Hyundai/KIA can't be discounted. From the articles I've read in Fortune, etc. they have some economies of scale going for them big time. Remember when Henry Ford had his own ships, rubber plantation, steel mills, etc.? Sounds kind of familiar, eh?

 

 

Again.... I'm not posting this stuff just to p-ss people off on here. I'm posting it to make sure that the people reading threads like this one don't take too much comfort or satisfaction in all the outdated or misinformed postings claiming that Hyundais and KIAs are junk....crap.....only purchased by "credit criminals" (I like that one... it's rich!), etc., etc.

 

Remember.... the British Parliament constantly told Churchill to p-ss off in the late 1930's when he tried to warn them about the German military buildup and that the time was now to stop them. They called Churchill a "war hawk" and a "war monger".

 

Even if you're NOT a history major, you KNOW how that one ended up!

 

-Ovaltine

 

This thread is a perfect example of why Ford is in the crapper. Too many of the supposed Ford fans have gotten too comfortable in the role of Ford apologist. I'm guilty of that myself. I've been driving Ford vehicles since I could drive and right now, they have NOTHING that I would be interested in buying.

 

I refuse to be the proxy laughing stock for Ford by being one of their apologists. Here Ovaltine is telling you about what he likes about his car and instead of saying "Gee, maybe Ford should incorporate that" You Ford fans go off on another long apology streak. "My Kia has puddle lights." "Yeah, well Kia sucks and my Ford Fusion comes with tires so its obviously better."

 

If the city slickers want fold in mirrors, then by God, give it to them. Christ, just because you don't use them doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. I've seen many a city car moping around with its drver side mirror dangling. If Kia can understand that this is a handy feature for its customers, then I have to wonder why Ford can't.

 

Doesn't it seem to be the the Asian companies trying to gain market share by giving their customers more for less and Ford seems to want to gain market share by giving customers less for more $$$.

 

--Paul

Paul:

 

Thanks for the commentary. I'm glad that the point I was trying to make here wasn't lost on everyone.

 

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 28, 2006 by Ovaltine

[DRODMOTORS]

Hey, I had a 2002 Kia Rio, it was the first new car I ever bought, financed through Ford Credit because my local Ford dealer had a store down the road for his import franchises. Now I will admit that the quality on the entry car was very good. It was much better than the Escort I was comparing it to. The 10 year warranty thing sealed the deal for me. I had to co-sign with my father, because yeah, my credit was non-existant, I was a college kid, making $500 to $1000 a month depending on the time of year. It was a great car to get me through college, once got in the 50 mpg range highway driving, could still do over 100mph, but the thing was small, and a Kia. Fast forward a few years later, college over, working now, I bought a new Mustang because after one test drive I was hooked even though I said I would wait for the Fusion to come out. Well I figured I'd buy the Fusion still because you know what, everything that was said about the Kia resale is true. I tried for six months to sell it outright on my own, no go. In the meantime I got to testdrive the Fusion, I like the V6, but I'm a control freak, so a manual is a must have. Found the one dealer in town that had an I-4 manual and took it for a testdrive. As soon as I pulled out of the lot I was AMAZED. A four banger engine with low end torque? This thing moved, granted it was no Mustang, but for a four door four banger powered sedan, it moves nicely. I got into the handling...>OMIGOD this thing drives better than my modified Taurus SHO, I AM SOLD! I worked out the deal with the dealer, fully understand I was going to take a bath on the Kia, but that was also part of the reason for purchasing the Fusion. A hundred bucks more a month on the car payment...but get this...ABS, alarm, better crash rating, and the side airbags LOWERED my insurance so overall I'm paying the same amount per month as before. Now, here's the big thing, it's a car I can be proud to be seen in. Not just to go to work where I park somewhere out of sight to not be seen by my superiors, but something I can pick up my weekend date with, something as a young 20 something that has room for three others. Kia did try to keep me as a customer, I got offers that basically would cover the upside down money towards a new Kia. Good strategy on their part, but you know what, as shallow as this sounds, I want to buy a brand, something that at least has some respect, and doesn't scream poor college kid because that is not what I am anymore.

 

And about that weatherstripping, you must have seen a bad one, mine are all perfect. And you see the outside of it because it forms a seal there, but it still extends far into the door area. My panels all look great, no gaps, the fit and finish is awesome. Now if only the car had 100 more HP it would be the perfect sedan!

[voncoon]

To answer your question I last sold them in 2002. You think that there resale value will grow in time? What are you basing this on? I live in Jersey and New York where their is not 1 exclusive Kia dealer anywhere around. But your post explains why. There is only 400 exclusive dealers, an average of 8 per state. Wow, they are taking over! Kia has also been in this country since 94 so they are not "fledgling" any more. The only reason they are still around is because Hyundai bought them or they would be amongst the ranks of Yugo. Saturn has been around since 92 to compare, yes I know the General is behind them, but if thet did not sell, Oldsmobile would still be here and saturn would be gone. At 275,851 cars, Ford sold that many F-150s by the end of April. Now that's competition. As far as the growth streak goes it seems there is no other place but up. Is Toyota worried about the Koreans? Yes because they own their own shipping line and steel mills and have big backing from the Korean Gov't.

 

If only the Ford Dealers that "should" own a dealership in the United States were allowed to own one, I doubt if there would be a hundred in the country.

[Ovaltine]

In the meantime I got to testdrive the Fusion, I like the V6, but I'm a control freak, so a manual is a must have. Found the one dealer in town that had an I-4 manual and took it for a testdrive. As soon as I pulled out of the lot I was AMAZED. A four banger engine with low end torque? This thing moved, granted it was no Mustang, but for a four door four banger powered sedan, it moves nicely. I got into the handling...>OMIGOD this thing drives better than my modified Taurus SHO, I AM SOLD! I worked out the deal with the dealer, fully understand I was going to take a bath on the Kia, but that was also part of the reason for purchasing the Fusion. A hundred bucks more a month on the car payment...but get this...ABS, alarm, better crash rating, and the side airbags LOWERED my insurance so overall I'm paying the same amount per month as before. Now, here's the big thing, it's a car I can be proud to be seen in. Not just to go to work where I park somewhere out of sight to not be seen by my superiors, but something I can pick up my weekend date with, something as a young 20 something that has room for three others.

 

Drod:

 

Glad to hear the positive review of your Fusion. I am totally impressed with the overall state of 4 cylinders these days in many of the different makes. My Spectra's got a 16 valve CVVT pulling nearly 140 horses and it has plenty of power. A friend's Accord I rode in recently had a 4 cylinder that I swore was a 6! So I totally believe you when you say the Fusion's 4 banger runs well.

 

I totally understand the issue of "prestige" and being younger. In all honesty, if I was 20 something again and still in the dating scene, I'd probably be less likely to want a KIA because of the perception.

 

That said however, my 2004.5 Spectra is heads and tails above the previous gen Rio in the looks and exterior/interior quality department. Also, the new generation Rio that was just released is getting rave reviews and blows away its predecessor. In any case, I'm glad to hear that your humble wheels treated you right though while you were in college!

 

And yes... the resale issue is one of the last mountains Hyundai/KIA has to climb. A lot is linked to the whole "prestige" thing you mention above. I suspect that as they finish the quality ramp up across their entire lineup over the next year, and *if* the J.D. Powers awards continue to come in (3 in 2005), AND the body style/designs continue to improve, then the resale value of the Hyundai/KIA line should *at least* fall in line with the average domestic vehicles. Time will tell.

 

 

Enjoy driving the Fusion. Btw... what happened to the 'Stang???

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 28, 2006 by Ovaltine

[DRODMOTORS]

Speaking of the new Rio, I was a bit shocked to see that if you load one up you're looking at a $14K MSRP. Now I can only wonder how long that'll last before incentives come into play. My Rio was basically loaded with the exception of an automatic, and it was $11K but rebates, first month payment credit, took it down to like $9K. Nowadays you can get a Cobalt(ugly, I don't know who'd subject themselve to that) or even a base model Focus now for around the money. Kia does have a great strategy though with the private offers to take care of the upside down if you want to trade in for a newer one a few years down the line. And granted I like the fact that it accelerated quicker than a friend's 00 Taurus SE :lol: But I'm glad I came back to Ford. I still have the Mustang, that is one hot ride, my favorite car still out of my personal fleet.

[Ovaltine]

Speaking of the new Rio, I was a bit shocked to see that if you load one up you're looking at a $14K MSRP. Now I can only wonder how long that'll last before incentives come into play. My Rio was basically loaded with the exception of an automatic, and it was $11K but rebates, first month payment credit, took it down to like $9K. Nowadays you can get a Cobalt(ugly, I don't know who'd subject themselve to that) or even a base model Focus now for around the money. Kia does have a great strategy though with the private offers to take care of the upside down if you want to trade in for a newer one a few years down the line. And granted I like the fact that it accelerated quicker than a friend's 00 Taurus SE :lol: But I'm glad I came back to Ford. I still have the Mustang, that is one hot ride, my favorite car still out of my personal fleet.

I agree with you on the issue of the new Rio's pricing. KIA's going to have to get "real" with the pricing because as you said, there's a LOT of competition in the $13-15k range. Heck... I only paid $13,300 (before taxes) for a fully loaded new gen Spectra..... a way nicer car from several aspects. That included auto, power moon roof, alloy wheels, power windows/locks, tilt, cruise, intermitent wipers, spoiler, etc.

 

I think KIA's holding back on incentives to test what the market will bear regarding prices. I suspect that they'll be putting some money on the table in the near future due to the competition if for no other reason.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited January 29, 2006 by Ovaltine

[Noah Harbinger]

What do you need foldable mirrors for on a midsized sedan in the first place? I have yet to use the ones on my F 150, never used them on my Ranger, and think that it's silly that my RX-8 has them. I'd much have a puddle light underneath the rearview mirror vs. a folding mirror.

 

I can get 3 inches closer to the drive-up ATM or drive-through counter, and there are a couple parking spots that I could only fit in if I folded back the mirror.

 

/Elantra

 

While not garbage, the interior of the Sonata is worse than that of the Fusions. The grain, the touch of the plastic, reminds me of a late 90s Honda Accord.

 

Definitely! I sat in them one after another one evening (I'm surprised so many car dealerships leave cars unlocked overnight, at least around here). The Sonata's definitely nice, but the Fusion feels a touch above. (No pun intended)

Edited January 29, 2006 by Noah Harbinger

[Noah Harbinger]

... your traitorous purchase of a korean car ...

 

Hold the horses there! Traitorous for purchasing a foreign car?

 

The real traitors are those who for decades tolerated crappy American cars!

 

Imagine: Americans are so blinded by patriotism that not a single Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Mitsubishi/Kia/Hyundai is sold in the USA. Japanese consumer electronics never show up, cheap chinese junk doesn't flood the market. What do you think our cars would look like? I think I saw a picture not too long ago of an old Fairmont Wagon.

 

Someday, along comes a war... only the enemies are using much more advanced manufacturing techniques than we could muster, because we were complacent. Do you think The American Spirit is all it takes to win?

 

No! It takes an industrial base hardened by decades of international competition, winning because the produce of their workers is THE BEST IN THE WORLD. Any time you accept less than the best, you are allowing America's advantage over the world to decay, and threatening the very survival of our nation.

 

So buy the best car! Without the competetive spirit needed to survive, we'd be stuck driving LTDs instead of Fusions.

[retro-man]

What do you need foldable mirrors for on a midsized sedan in the first place?

 

To which I answer:

Edited January 29, 2006 by niteflight

[DRODMOTORS]

Hold the horses there! Traitorous for purchasing a foreign car?

 

The real traitors are those who for decades tolerated crappy American cars!

 

Imagine: Americans are so blinded by patriotism that not a single Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Mitsubishi/Kia/Hyundai is sold in the USA. Japanese consumer electronics never show up, cheap chinese junk doesn't flood the market. What do you think our cars would look like? I think I saw a picture not too long ago of an old Fairmont Wagon.

 

Someday, along comes a war... only the enemies are using much more advanced manufacturing techniques than we could muster, because we were complacent. Do you think The American Spirit is all it takes to win?

 

No! It takes an industrial base hardened by decades of international competition, winning because the produce of their workers is THE BEST IN THE WORLD. Any time you accept less than the best, you are allowing America's advantage over the world to decay, and threatening the very survival of our nation.

 

So buy the best car! Without the competetive spirit needed to survive, we'd be stuck driving LTDs instead of Fusions.

 

 

Here Here! I completely agree, as painful as it is to some, international competition is a natural thing, and because of it we're only getting better. If it weren't for the competition, we'd be driving something pre-Taurus, a big giant metal box that rusted within years and fell apart soon before and got maybe 9mpg. We've known for two decades that the US was losing it's manufacturing base. Who here has an American made TV at home or is wearing an American made shirt right now? Hell even a good amount of the food you eat everyday wasn't grown or raised in America. This is the way natural selection works out...change or die. Some of us will change, the rest will die.

[partsisparts]

Ovaltine,

I am glad we agree on a few things, and I am glad you love your Kia. I love my new Fusion! But I have been in the auto biz for 25 years and have seen alot. I feel Kia will take years to be a major competitor for the same reason Hyundai was'nt for many years. Their initial products were bad. It took Hyundai ten years to get over the Excel and I feel it will take the same amount of time for people to forget the Sephia and the first gen Sportage. Yes, you do have a better car, but the public is not that forgiving. I know your thinking of the american brands quality problems, but people tend to forget the good. For instance Econoline vans, Taurus, third gen Escorts, Mustangs,F series. Explorer was Americas choice for years, now you cannot read an article about them without some reference to the Firestone tire recall. You see the press is very biased against U.S.auto makers. If you have a problem with a floor mat on a Focus it is national front page news, Toyota Recalls every Prius they ever built it is a little blurb on page 39. Please do not listen to Honda and Driver mag or Toyota Trend, listen to yourself. Go out look and drive and make an educated decision for yourself not a magazine looking to sell advertising space.

 

Hey, I had a 2002 Kia Rio, it was the first new car I ever bought, financed through Ford Credit because my local Ford dealer had a store down the road for his import franchises. Now I will admit that the quality on the entry car was very good. It was much better than the Escort I was comparing it to. The 10 year warranty thing sealed the deal for me. I had to co-sign with my father, because yeah, my credit was non-existant, I was a college kid, making $500 to $1000 a month depending on the time of year. It was a great car to get me through college, once got in the 50 mpg range highway driving, could still do over 100mph, but the thing was small, and a Kia. Fast forward a few years later, college over, working now, I bought a new Mustang because after one test drive I was hooked even though I said I would wait for the Fusion to come out. Well I figured I'd buy the Fusion still because you know what, everything that was said about the Kia resale is true. I tried for six months to sell it outright on my own, no go. In the meantime I got to testdrive the Fusion, I like the V6, but I'm a control freak, so a manual is a must have. Found the one dealer in town that had an I-4 manual and took it for a testdrive. As soon as I pulled out of the lot I was AMAZED. A four banger engine with low end torque? This thing moved, granted it was no Mustang, but for a four door four banger powered sedan, it moves nicely. I got into the handling...>OMIGOD this thing drives better than my modified Taurus SHO, I AM SOLD! I worked out the deal with the dealer, fully understand I was going to take a bath on the Kia, but that was also part of the reason for purchasing the Fusion. A hundred bucks more a month on the car payment...but get this...ABS, alarm, better crash rating, and the side airbags LOWERED my insurance so overall I'm paying the same amount per month as before. Now, here's the big thing, it's a car I can be proud to be seen in. Not just to go to work where I park somewhere out of sight to not be seen by my superiors, but something I can pick up my weekend date with, something as a young 20 something that has room for three others. Kia did try to keep me as a customer, I got offers that basically would cover the upside down money towards a new Kia. Good strategy on their part, but you know what, as shallow as this sounds, I want to buy a brand, something that at least has some respect, and doesn't scream poor college kid because that is not what I am anymore.

 

And about that weatherstripping, you must have seen a bad one, mine are all perfect. And you see the outside of it because it forms a seal there, but it still extends far into the door area. My panels all look great, no gaps, the fit and finish is awesome. Now if only the car had 100 more HP it would be the perfect sedan!

I own a V6 Fusion SEL and could not agree with you more. Some have said the Fusion is a 4 door Mustang and I am starting to agree. The car handles like a BMW for a lot less money. Has adequate power( I blew away "tuned" Honda Accord last night).And Looks great too. So far I could not be happier with this car. All for under 25k tax and all. :D :D :D

[ToBeHuman]

These pics are all from Zephyrs. All 5 Zephyrs on the lot had the same problems. Notice the protruding door gaskets and fenders. I snapped this pics with my phone when my car was in for service.

 

[06StangAwesomecar]

What are you talking about?

So are you going to go buy a Kia too.

 

I love how people want a $200k car for $20k

 

You know what, I am going to go to the Import lots and snap some pics. the thing I love is why do Toyodas run there exhaust pipe under the rear control arm/axle, instead of over?

Edited February 4, 2006 by 05StangAwsomecar

[ToBeHuman]

05Stang,

 

Actually, no, I'm not going to go buy a Kia.

 

I'm pointing out two flaws that can be easily addressed on a $20k car without too much effort. I'm sure there are some Ford officials lurking the boards that can adress these issues. If everyone were to turn a blind eye to these things they would never be fixed. I wouldn't be helping Ford by keeping quiet.

 

Ford needs to win over people that haven't considered Ford for awhile and I'm sure those people would be more dicerning of Ford products than me.

 

I'm not going to go to Honda or Toyota dealership because I don't care about the quality or reliability of either. I care about Ford. Ford has been my favorite car company since I was 19 and bought my first new car, a 1999 Mercury Cougar.

 

I know right now I have a Mazda but it was the only way to get a C1 car in 2004. I still can't get a C1 Focus living in North America.

 

You can go ahead and take some pics of Toyota and Honda flaws but don't post them here. It won't help Ford. Go post them on a Honda or Toyota forum and enlighten some people there.

[Michael Reynolds]

Good Grief.........are you guys seriously that anal retentive?

[Ovaltine]

These pics are all from Zephyrs. All 5 Zephyrs on the lot had the same problems. Notice the protruding door gaskets and fenders. I snapped this pics with my phone when my car was in for service.

 

 

TBH:

 

I can see the irregularity in the fender/door gaps just fine, but I really can't make out where the gasket's protruding on the door/window frames.

 

Can you either circle them in an updated graphic, or describe the exact spot a bit more.

 

The protrusions I originally referenced were at the top-most corners of the side windows on either side of the 'B' pillar. Your photo appears to be related to the 'C' pillar. Are you talking about the little bit of rubber that sticks out where it crosses the rear door's small fixed window pillar?

 

Thanks.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited February 4, 2006 by Ovaltine

[Ovaltine]

You know what, I am going to go to the Import lots and snap some pics. the thing I love is why do Toyodas run there exhaust pipe under the rear control arm/axle, instead of over?

I agree with you 05Stang on this one. I've *always* thought that the exhaust pipe hanging down low on Camrys looked really cheesy AND ripe for being caught on something and ripped off.

 

Does any one have any idea as to why they would choose that design? Maybe the GM engineer who designed the catalytic convertor hump in the passenger footwell of the Camaro/Firebird took a job at Toyota! :lol:

 

-Ovaltine

[06StangAwesomecar]

05Stang,

 

Actually, no, I'm not going to go buy a Kia.

 

I'm pointing out two flaws that can be easily addressed on a $20k car without too much effort. I'm sure there are some Ford officials lurking the boards that can adress these issues. If everyone were to turn a blind eye to these things they would never be fixed. I wouldn't be helping Ford by keeping quiet.

 

Ford needs to win over people that haven't considered Ford for awhile and I'm sure those people would be more dicerning of Ford products than me.

 

I'm not going to go to Honda or Toyota dealership because I don't care about the quality or reliability of either. I care about Ford. Ford has been my favorite car company since I was 19 and bought my first new car, a 1999 Mercury Cougar.

 

I know right now I have a Mazda but it was the only way to get a C1 car in 2004. I still can't get a C1 Focus living in North America.

 

You can go ahead and take some pics of Toyota and Honda flaws but don't post them here. It won't help Ford. Go post them on a Honda or Toyota forum and enlighten some people there.

 

Fair reply,, shouldnt you be posting that in the , To Ford Managment section, I just got back from the Ford dealer, they didnt have any Zephers, sold out, looked at Fusions, I thought the Fit/finish looked good, and I still couldnt see a car with PROTRUDING rubber, I will try looking again though.

[DRODMOTORS]

Yeah, what's the problem with the door gaskets here?

[ToBeHuman]

Ovaltine & Drodmotors,

 

I don't know if you can see it or not in the photos but they come out further than the door itself and the roof & pillar. In the photo it is the black line between the door and the roof & pillar.

 

05Stang,

 

Maybe Ford has corrected the problems on the Fusions you saw. The Zephyrs that I looked at all had the flaw. I was at Long Beach Lincoln/Mercury/Mazda having my 3 serviced when I took the pics.

 

I made my post in this thread because it was pre-existing and dealt with the same issue.

[kevinb120]

Well, let me tell you from someone who has sold mostly Ford, but has also sold Kia, Subaru, Acura, and Toyota(and back to stay at Ford thank you). The devil's in the details is a great term to describe just about any import in the meat of the industry($15-$35k cars).

 

One of the common missunderstandings and to some extent in a Ford vs Kia or even Toyota debate is in the details Americans choose to see. Ford to a fault has been overbuilding vehicle platforms starting around the time of the 2002 Explorer and newer generation vehicles. If you REALLY look at a Kia, or even a stalwart like the Camry, there is MUCH less material used to build the vehicle structure and suspension. Asian import companies have learned long ago if you make a smooth motor and make plastic parts look good, Americans will eat it up.

 

I also have sold and been exposed to hundreds of used cars from 1-5 years old from all manufacturers and being the sponge I am I go through anything interesting, like 2004 accords, jettas, camrys, hyundai's, etc-including crawling under them with techs if I catch them under the lift. All though its spouted like gospel almost robotically 'they run forever'when you bring up any japanese product, if you spend time in a shop that reconditions used autos and sells the 'competition' new, there are JUST as many issues with ANY brand's product and there is no difference in the level's of repairs, shop bays per units sold, and customer complaints.

 

The Kia's are extremely lightly built cars, so I will stick comparing to the likes of an Altima or Camry. Camry is made of such thin metal everywhere its obsurd. Plastic bumper covers and suspension components are also extremely light. They use multi-piece side stampings(cheap), doors till have the 1980's style 'tack on' window frames(cheap), thin supports(if any) to bolt the seats low straight to the floor pan(cheap), outdated bow trunk hinges(cheap), no multi-thickness metal sheets(cheap), and the smallest fasteners possible everywhere. If you do not readilly SEE it, its the CHEAPEST POSSIBLE WAY TO BUILD IT. There are no hydromount bushings, no aluminum components, no extra bracing anywhere. To increase the subframe strength, nearly all japanese cars have a huge outdated bulkhead behind the rear seat, with no pass through, just to make the car strong enough.

 

FORD on the other hand, OVER builds the vehicle's shell, hardware, attatchment points, suspension components, motor mounts, hinge and pillar metals, door hinges, etc. They overengineer to a fault in a lot of cases. Where they tend to cut corners is the exact opposite of Japanese cars, they cut it in the PLASTICS. To get to price points, the beancounters axe power seat features, soft materials, etc. Toyotas are only built to just PASS the exact crash tests, and its short cuts everywhere else. Most accidents are not that controlled, and thats why Civics in crashes in the real world turn into shreaded wheat on the side of the road. Toyota uses EXTENSIVE platform sharing, they really only make 3 engines, 3 steering wheels, all the switchgear is shared through the line(some of it over 10 years old, etc. Everything is based off of roughly 3 platforms. The money Ford 'wastes' on having 12 steering wheels could pay for all the soft plastic you could want. If they took LESS effort in the cars 'mettle' and more on the plastic and cheap gimmick electronics like luminecent gauges, they would probably sell more cars. This has hindered the perception for years.

 

 

A strange phenomenom I do see is complaints about 'hard' dashboards in comparo tests against other vehicles that actually have the SAME thing. I saw a highlander/Freestyle comparo that was like this(ammong other things). HELLO, MCFLY, EVERY dashboard and console surface in a highlander is ROCK HARD PLASTIC, although they even SAY its soft!? go figure. Civic dash, corolla dash, kia spectra dash, ROCK HARD. No complaints from any journalist, Focus test OH MY GOD ITS SO CHEAP!!!. ALthough typically the plastics are thicker and wear better in the long run then toyota's. If you see most 3-5 year old import cars are pocked with door dings from thin metal, puckered and missshaped bumpers from thin plastic, peeling dyes, swirled and 'dry' paint from being thin, worn steering wheels, creaky buttons, faded upholstries, etc. I do not understand where this 'reliability' is. Even at a Toyota store, a 'mint' solara with low mileage certified on our lot looks hard worn and tired if you look closely at it, almost as if everything is getting thinner as it gets older. Yet you would think god shits every toyota out personally. If you climb over a 4 year old import(or even one year old) and start to tug and flex plastic components in the interior, forceably compress seat surfaces, and look in all the cracks at the details, cheapness is only a close inspection away.

 

Even comparing something like the F150 to a Titan is almost laughable. The rear end on a titan is smaller then a ranger's, the frame is half the size, they 'frame' the front using the fenders like a Chevy with no substructure, there is less then 1/3 the welds in the frame-the vehicle weighs 700lbs LESS then the nearly exact same size Ford. The rivited(YES RIVITED) open frame of a Tundra is one of the funniest things you will ever see when its not attatched to the body(with little tiny screws and bolts) on a warehouse floor. Its all window dressing. Yet they continuously dodge bad reputations in CR and other rags, its almost as if they have thier empolyees all send in good surveys themselves. For every 200,000 mile camry story I have a 300,000 mile Taurus one, and plenty of F-series that carried more then the total a (never worked anyway)Tundra is capeable of day in day out well over the 100k mark. And at the dealership level, you would think that most of our 90k import trades that are 'roached' and in such abysmal shape that they would look 'new' by thier reputation. The average Japanese maker has Americans pegged on doing the bare minimums to sell, while a lot of the domestics try too hard to build true 'value' nobody seems to care about. On a japanese car, if you can reach it from the drivers seat they spend money on it, other then that, build it as cheap as you possibly can. Even a Focus door is nearly double the thickness of a Sequoias.

 

Back to Kia's, Subaru's looked like 60's cadillacs next to them for build strength. Oh and btw, the Fusion is lower MSRP then the Hyundai. For nearly 5000 more then an SEL you can get a 4 corner mcpherson strut marshmalow camry. If you ever want to come by and see me at the dealer to go over a few used cars, it will REALLY open your eyes with a proper walk-around critique. You need to see the window frame flex/b pillar twist, thumb tip body press, and spot the spot weld show I can demonstrate on any asian import sedan. Korean cars make for the biggest show.

 

I don't think anyone has any idea how incredibly MASSIVE the shotgun braces, side beams, door frames, b pillars, roof reinforcement, under-seat beam, strut tower support, motor mounts, control arms, subframe, and front motor support frame is on a 500. I guarantee it has more metal then an entire avalon's unit body with all panels and doors hung. Its 30% stronger then the S80 and starts at 21k.

[06StangAwesomecar]

Well, let me tell you from someone who has sold mostly Ford, but has also sold Kia, Subaru, Acura, and Toyota(and back to stay at Ford thank you). The devil's in the details is a great term to describe just about any import in the meat of the industry($15-$35k cars).

 

One of the common missunderstandings and to some extent in a Ford vs Kia or even Toyota debate is in the details Americans choose to see. Ford to a fault has been overbuilding vehicle platforms starting around the time of the 2002 Explorer and newer generation vehicles. If you REALLY look at a Kia, or even a stalwart like the Camry, there is MUCH less material used to build the vehicle structure and suspension. Asian import companies have learned long ago if you make a smooth motor and make plastic parts look good, Americans will eat it up.

 

I also have sold and been exposed to hundreds of used cars from 1-5 years old from all manufacturers and being the sponge I am I go through anything interesting, like 2004 accords, jettas, camrys, hyundai's, etc-including crawling under them with techs if I catch them under the lift. All though its spouted like gospel almost robotically 'they run forever'when you bring up any japanese product, if you spend time in a shop that reconditions used autos and sells the 'competition' new, there are JUST as many issues with ANY brand's product and there is no difference in the level's of repairs, shop bays per units sold, and customer complaints.

 

The Kia's are extremely lightly built cars, so I will stick comparing to the likes of an Altima or Camry. Camry is made of such thin metal everywhere its obsurd. Plastic bumper covers and suspension components are also extremely light. They use multi-piece side stampings(cheap), doors till have the 1980's style 'tack on' window frames(cheap), thin supports(if any) to bolt the seats low straight to the floor pan(cheap), outdated bow trunk hinges(cheap), no multi-thickness metal sheets(cheap), and the smallest fasteners possible everywhere. If you do not readilly SEE it, its the CHEAPEST POSSIBLE WAY TO BUILD IT. There are no hydromount bushings, no aluminum components, no extra bracing anywhere. To increase the subframe strength, nearly all japanese cars have a huge outdated bulkhead behind the rear seat, with no pass through, just to make the car strong enough.

 

FORD on the other hand, OVER builds the vehicle's shell, hardware, attatchment points, suspension components, motor mounts, hinge and pillar metals, door hinges, etc. They overengineer to a fault in a lot of cases. Where they tend to cut corners is the exact opposite of Japanese cars, they cut it in the PLASTICS. To get to price points, the beancounters axe power seat features, soft materials, etc. Toyotas are only built to just PASS the exact crash tests, and its short cuts everywhere else. Most accidents are not that controlled, and thats why Civics in crashes in the real world turn into shreaded wheat on the side of the road. Toyota uses EXTENSIVE platform sharing, they really only make 3 engines, 3 steering wheels, all the switchgear is shared through the line(some of it over 10 years old, etc. Everything is based off of roughly 3 platforms. The money Ford 'wastes' on having 12 steering wheels could pay for all the soft plastic you could want. If they took LESS effort in the cars 'mettle' and more on the plastic and cheap gimmick electronics like luminecent gauges, they would probably sell more cars. This has hindered the perception for years.

A strange phenomenom I do see is complaints about 'hard' dashboards in comparo tests against other vehicles that actually have the SAME thing. I saw a highlander/Freestyle comparo that was like this(ammong other things). HELLO, MCFLY, EVERY dashboard and console surface in a highlander is ROCK HARD PLASTIC, although they even SAY its soft!? go figure. Civic dash, corolla dash, kia spectra dash, ROCK HARD. No complaints from any journalist, Focus test OH MY GOD ITS SO CHEAP!!!. ALthough typically the plastics are thicker and wear better in the long run then toyota's. If you see most 3-5 year old import cars are pocked with door dings from thin metal, puckered and missshaped bumpers from thin plastic, peeling dyes, swirled and 'dry' paint from being thin, worn steering wheels, creaky buttons, faded upholstries, etc. I do not understand where this 'reliability' is. Even at a Toyota store, a 'mint' solara with low mileage certified on our lot looks hard worn and tired if you look closely at it, almost as if everything is getting thinner as it gets older. Yet you would think god shits every toyota out personally. If you climb over a 4 year old import(or even one year old) and start to tug and flex plastic components in the interior, forceably compress seat surfaces, and look in all the cracks at the details, cheapness is only a close inspection away.

 

Even comparing something like the F150 to a Titan is almost laughable. The rear end on a titan is smaller then a ranger's, the frame is half the size, they 'frame' the front using the fenders like a Chevy with no substructure, there is less then 1/3 the welds in the frame-the vehicle weighs 700lbs LESS then the nearly exact same size Ford. The rivited(YES RIVITED) open frame of a Tundra is one of the funniest things you will ever see when its not attatched to the body(with little tiny screws and bolts) on a warehouse floor. Its all window dressing. Yet they continuously dodge bad reputations in CR and other rags, its almost as if they have thier empolyees all send in good surveys themselves. For every 200,000 mile camry story I have a 300,000 mile Taurus one, and plenty of F-series that carried more then the total a (never worked anyway)Tundra is capeable of day in day out well over the 100k mark. And at the dealership level, you would think that most of our 90k import trades that are 'roached' and in such abysmal shape that they would look 'new' by thier reputation. The average Japanese maker has Americans pegged on doing the bare minimums to sell, while a lot of the domestics try too hard to build true 'value' nobody seems to care about. On a japanese car, if you can reach it from the drivers seat they spend money on it, other then that, build it as cheap as you possibly can. Even a Focus door is nearly double the thickness of a Sequoias.

 

Back to Kia's, Subaru's looked like 60's cadillacs next to them for build strength. Oh and btw, the Fusion is lower MSRP then the Hyundai. For nearly 5000 more then an SEL you can get a 4 corner mcpherson strut marshmalow camry. If you ever want to come by and see me at the dealer to go over a few used cars, it will REALLY open your eyes with a proper walk-around critique. You need to see the window frame flex/b pillar twist, thumb tip body press, and spot the spot weld show I can demonstrate on any asian import sedan. Korean cars make for the biggest show.

 

I don't think anyone has any idea how incredibly MASSIVE the shotgun braces, side beams, door frames, b pillars, roof reinforcement, under-seat beam, strut tower support, motor mounts, control arms, subframe, and front motor support frame is on a 500. I guarantee it has more metal then an entire avalon's unit body with all panels and doors hung. Its 30% stronger then the S80 and starts at 21k.

 

 

What you say is completly true, but most people only care about, locking gas doors, and complaing about rubber trim, I too have worked at dealers, independents, body shops, I too have been under thousands of cars, Most people wouldnt have a clue what anything under a car is there for or its purpose, heck most people just put gas in there car nothing else, I had people who didnt even know how to open the hood. Do you remember when Honda sent a SPECIAL car for there crash test, it had a double floor in it, honda Knew there car wouldnt pass and they sent it, did they think they where going to get away with something? they caught it in the inspection afterwards, guess what if that was Ford/Gm everybody would have known about it.

Also, it was amazing imports in Michigan rotted in the strangest spots and due to rust alot was safty related, do you know how many imports I seen with rotted out strut towers, And they wanted them fixed, I would tell them to scrap them.

Also look at the crash test results on the Fusion, compared to kia, hundie, susuki and a few other imports.

Their all worried about a shifter knob, domelight switch, a wheel well liner, but mention nothing about its safty rating, I guess poor resale and poor crash tests are more important.

[kevinb120]

Im with you there brother!

[Michael Reynolds]

To which I answer:

 

Oh and where was that picture taken?