Parked next to a new Fusion....

[partsisparts]

Kevinb you are exactly right! I was in the car biz for 20 years and have observed the same thing. What about the use of cheap timing belts that have to be changed? Ford uses chains that do not need to be changed and all you hear form the rags is that Ford engines are "not as refined as the japanese." Also when you are on the road, check out how many old Tauruses you see compared to similar year Camrys and Accords. Especially from 92-95 model years. My bro in law has a 96 Taurus LX with 208k and runs great.

[Ovaltine]

If you REALLY look at a Kia, or even a stalwart like the Camry, there is MUCH less material used to build the vehicle structure and suspension. Asian import companies have learned long ago if you make a smooth motor and make plastic parts look good, Americans will eat it up.

 

The Kia's are extremely lightly built cars, so I will stick comparing to the likes of an Altima or Camry.

 

A strange phenomenom I do see is complaints about 'hard' dashboards in comparo tests against other vehicles that actually have the SAME thing. Civic dash, corolla dash, kia spectra dash, ROCK HARD. No complaints from any journalist, Focus test OH MY GOD ITS SO CHEAP!!!.

 

If you see most 3-5 year old import cars are pocked with door dings from thin metal, puckered and missshaped bumpers from thin plastic, peeling dyes, swirled and 'dry' paint from being thin, worn steering wheels, creaky buttons, faded upholstries, etc.

 

Back to Kia's, Subaru's looked like 60's cadillacs next to them for build strength. You need to see the window frame flex/b pillar twist, thumb tip body press, and spot the spot weld show I can demonstrate on any asian import sedan. Korean cars make for the biggest show.

 

I don't think anyone has any idea how incredibly MASSIVE the shotgun braces, side beams, door frames, b pillars, roof reinforcement, under-seat beam, strut tower support, motor mounts, control arms, subframe, and front motor support frame is on a 500. I guarantee it has more metal then an entire avalon's unit body with all panels and doors hung. Its 30% stronger then the S80 and starts at 21k.

 

I can't help but to call you on a few of your claims above, Kev.

 

Check out these comparison stats between similar Ford and Asian products mentioned above:

 

Toyota Avalon Curb weight: Automatic (lb.) 3600 lbs

http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/toyota/avalon/compare/

 

Ford Five Hundred Curb weight: Curb Weight - Automatic 3664 lbs

http://www.automotive.com/2006/12/ford/fiv...pare/index.html

 

 

Toyota Camry Curb Weight - Automatic 3108.5 lbs

http://www.automotive.com/2006/12/toyota/c...pare/index.html

 

Hyundai Sonata Curb Weight - Automatic 3265 lbs

http://www.automotive.com/2006/12/hyundai/...pare/index.html

 

Ford Fusion Curb weight: Automatic 3280 lbs

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Re...S180.A9208.html

 

 

KIA Spectra Curb Weight - Automatic 2903 lbs

http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/kia/spec...pare/index.html

 

Ford Focus Curb Weight - Automatic (lb.) 2654 lbs

http://www.automotive.com/2006/12/ford/foc...pare/index.html

 

 

The question begged then is, if these Asian cars are built so much "lighter" than the Ford products, why are their weights either nearly equal to, exceeds, or are less than 200 lbs lower? What are the Japanese and Koreans putting in their cars to balance the scales..... rocks? My "light" Spectra weighs more than 200 lbs more than a Focus. If anything, the Spectra is probably dependent on too much metal in some areas where it could have been shaved out!

 

 

I can't speak from first hand experience about your Toyota and Honda observations, but hopefully they are more accurate than your KIA exclamations.

 

My Spectra does INDEED have a "soft" and padded dash, armrests, door panels, etc. In my car your statement about "being able to touch it" holds true. If I can touch it... it's soft/padded. I *like* that. To be fair, the new Rio isn't as plush, but it's truly an entry level econ-car.

 

My "light" Spectra's "cheaply" contstructed doors are double sealed, and leak no air when driving down the highway at 75+mph. The "light" chassis structure allows no body flexing/creaking/groaning when driving over bomb-cratered Michigan roads, and no rattles can be detected after 18k+ miles. The Spectra also has a split fold down rear seat, which means that it's NOT dependent on a rear bulkhead for rigidity.

 

The Spectra's rear suspension is a multi-link Mazda-style design, which allows it to place mid-pack in road handling performance in the Cobalt/Focus/Mazda3/Corolla/Spectra shoot-out.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/...tes/index8.html

 

 

On the topic of "door dings", just check any parking lot with a few last (and next-to-last) gen Tauruses and Sables in it, and you will see the automotive "Door Ding King(s)" of all time. The design of the vehicle sides are likely more at fault here than the metal... but who knows? All I know is that those cars will most likely have several dings in each side. So.... dings aren't just a "cheap import" problem.

 

Finally, you can see from above that there's only 64 lbs difference between the Avalon and the 500, so I suspect that your anecdotal observation of "I guarantee it has more metal then an entire avalon's unit body with all panels and doors hung" is less than accurate. I'm *sure* that the 500's Volvo engineering does indeed impart many useful safety cage innovations in the 500/Montego that the Avalon may not share. But to make the blanket statement above without checking basic vehicle specs isn't being very fair and honest to the reader.

 

Ultimately, being a reasonable person, I would have to suspect that many of your observations above are true to some degree. I'm sure that Ford and it's vast global engineering resources have created some pretty neat designs and features over the past few years. Ford's efforts in safety should be applauded, rightfully so. But keep in mind that Ford has also been subject to millions of dollars worth of personal injury judgements related to unsafe vehicles. I'm sure that the old adage of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is being verbalized more than occasionally in the halls of Dearborn.

 

In closing, it's my belief that a competitor's products shouldn't be decried as "shoddy" just because certain portions of their vehicles are constructed with a cheaper or more cost effective solution that performs the basic task of that part sufficiently well from the consumer's perspective. If Asian imported vehicles were as shoddy and decay prone as you describe above, I *think* the "consumer word on the street" would be more audible, and the sales of said vehicles would be spiraling downwards. I don't think pure media hype would be enough to overcome P.O.ed customers with voices.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited February 6, 2006 by Ovaltine

[Ovaltine]

Kevinb you are exactly right! I was in the car biz for 20 years and have observed the same thing. What about the use of cheap timing belts that have to be changed? Ford uses chains that do not need to be changed and all you hear form the rags is that Ford engines are "not as refined as the japanese."

 

But don't forget all of these vehicles that Ford deemed a timing belt good enough for:

 

FORD OHC TIMING BELT REPLACEMENT RECOMMENDATIONS

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us70444.htm

 

* 2.0L SOHC Focus (2000 & up) - 120,000 miles

 

* 3.0L* V6 Mercury Villager (1993) - 60,000 miles

 

* 3.0L* V6 Mercury Villager (1994-2000) - 105,000 miles

 

* 3.0L V6 Taurus - 100,000 miles

 

* 3.2L V6 Taurus SHO - 100,000 miles

 

* 1.6L*, 1.8L, 1.9L Escort - 60,000 miles

 

* 2.0L diesel (1984-'87) - 60,000 miles

 

* 2.0L SOHC Escort & Tracer (1999) - 120,000 miles

 

* 2.0L Contour - 60,000 miles

 

* 2.0L* Probe (1989-'97)- 60,000 miles

 

* 2.0L* DOHC (1999 & up all models) - 120,000 miles

 

* 2.0L 4-cyl Ranger pickup - 60,000 miles

 

* 2.2L* Probe - 60,000 miles

 

* 2.3L 4-cyl Ranger pickup - 60,000 miles

 

* 2.3L Mustang & T-Bird - 60,000 miles

 

* 2.5L 4-cyl Ranger pickup - 60,000 miles

 

* 2.5L V6 Probe - 60,000 miles

 

 

But........ I'm not trying to advocate that a belt's better than a chain. Given a choice, I personally *would* prefer a chain because I'm cheap. :-) I applaud Ford for heading away from belts, as a former Escort owner.

 

I just wanted to point out to unknowing that read these boards that Ford did indeed too have a *major* love affair in the recent past with the utilization of timing belts. If the competition wants to take one from Ford's playbook, this one's a good candidate.

 

 

-Ovaltine

Edited February 6, 2006 by Ovaltine

[Michael Reynolds]

The question begged then is, if these Asian cars are built so much "lighter" than the Ford products, why are their weights either nearly equal to, exceeds, or are less than 200 lbs lower? What are the Japanese and Koreans putting in their cars to balance the scales..... rocks? My "light" Spectra weighs more than 200 lbs more than a Focus. If anything, the Spectra is probably dependent on too much metal in some areas where it could have been shaved out!

 

Actually suspensions, hoods, wheels, sound deading materials, engine blocks, and transmissions would be areas where you would save weight, by using ight weight metals. Aluminum vs. Iron can make differences in weight (and weight balance) in several key areas.

[kevinb120]

Wow did everyone miss my 2002 explorer gen and up statement? I don't defend the nasser-era cars nearly as vehemently. Although the timing belt thread are all showing basically the same engine line. Funny enough, I would buy south korean imports before Japanese, my TV's and computer monitors are all Hyundai/Samsung(and a lot of Bose stuff), believe it or not, I avoid all Japanese equipment if possible, I'm that manic about it. (I even buy all my PS2 stuff used unless the games are developed in the US), and take my pictures with a Kodak. :P But I am not the biggest SK vehicle fan by any means after having spent enough time around them. They are getting much better though.

Edited February 7, 2006 by kevinb120

[ebritt]

But........ I'm not trying to advocate that a belt's better than a chain. Given a choice, I personally *would* prefer a chain because I'm cheap. :-) I applaud Ford for heading away from belts, as a former Escort owner.

 

I just wanted to point out to unknowing that read these boards that Ford did indeed too have a *major* love affair in the recent past with the utilization of timing belts. If the competition wants to take one from Ford's playbook, this one's a good candidate.

-Ovaltine

The biggest problem with the escort(1.9l) timing belt was the idler. The bearing would go bad and wear the belts out one right after the other. But I still liked my escorts.

 

Wow did everyone miss my 2002 explorer gen and up statement? I don't defend the nasser-era cars nearly as vehemently. Although the timing belt thread are all showing basically the same engine line. Funny enough, I would buy south korean imports before Japanese, my TV's and computer monitors are all Hyundai/Samsung(and a lot of Bose stuff), believe it or not, I avoid all Japanese equipment if possible, I'm that manic about it. (I even buy all my PS2 stuff used unless the games are developed in the US), and take my pictures with a Kodak. :P But I am not the biggest SK vehicle fan by any means after having spent enough time around them. They are getting much better though.

Hyundai and Kia are going to be the ones to watch. People are getting tired of Toyota and Honda. Subaru and Isuzu have always had their own little following which will probably stick with them.

[Gnostic]

"Yet you would think god shits every toyota out personally." - kevinb120

 

funniest thing I've heard on here in a long time.

[Ovaltine]

"Yet you would think god shits every toyota out personally." - kevinb120

 

funniest thing I've heard on here in a long time.

 

Yet... if we were all Islamic on here, we'd be putting a FATWAH out on kev's head, and we'd be protesting in front of BON HQ for publishing the offending remark!!!

 

I agree though... the original comment conjures up a humorous mental visual.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited February 9, 2006 by Ovaltine

[tim kakouris]

kevinb, that is a fantastic speech. i wish it could be made public, rather than get squashed by the throngs of anti-american auto industry boobs.

 

my question to ovaltine and the rest....why do you WANT the US auto industry to fail? why do you delight in every setback? and here is the kicker....

 

why do you feel such allegance to the asian automakers????

[Ovaltine]

kevinb, that is a fantastic speech. i wish it could be made public, rather than get squashed by the throngs of anti-american auto industry boobs.

 

my question to ovaltine and the rest....why do you WANT the US auto industry to fail? why do you delight in every setback? and here is the kicker....

 

why do you feel such allegance to the asian automakers????

First off, I hope everyone understands that my 'FATWA' reference above regarding Kev's post was due to the irreverent reference to 'God'. My comment had nothing to do with Kev's opinion of Asian cars. I figured that this would be obvious in light of the Muhammad cartoon business these days.

 

Secondly, could someone PLEASE show me the post where I state *or even allude* to my desire that the U.S. auto industry fail?????

 

I think Tim's statement above is a good example of a classic "Strawman Argument" in the world of logic and critical reasoning.

 

 

Here's how it works:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

 

A straw-man argument is the practice of refuting a weaker argument than an opponent actually offers. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to your opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is also a logical fallacy, since the argument actually presented by your opponent has not been refuted, only a weaker argument.

 

One can set up a straw man in the following ways:

 

Present the opponent's argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that the original has been refuted.

Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.

Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.

Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

Some logic textbooks define the straw-man fallacy only as a misrepresented argument. It is now common, however, to use the term to refer to all of these tactics. The straw-man technique is also used as a form of media manipulation.

 

 

If someone were to retrieve all of my posts on this forum and line them up, there is not ONE example of where I write or allude to what he accuses me of. I guess you can infer your thoughts regarding my posting motives, but that's ALL they would be... inferences, and misguided ones at that!

 

Just because I've posted some points critical to Ford Motor Company and it's products does NOT necessarily mean that I want Ford to fail. Several others who have posted here and written me personally with supportive comments have a much more accurate grasp of what motivates me. After working at Ford (and vendors working for Ford) processing quality-related data, I understand more than most people how important critical feedback about a company's products is! Again... if anyone bothers to take the time to reread my posts, the criticism is offered up in a way that *should* be deemed as constructive.

 

The one thing I *have* seen on this board is a huge prejudice and totally inaccurate perception of competitor's vehicles. If I appear to be a huge defender of lowly KIA, it's only because much of the commentary on their most recent products is inaccurate and simply prejudiced rubbish. To underestimate the strength of one's "enemy" (or ignore your *own* weaknesses) is one of the most fatal mistakes opponents make in "warfare".

 

Read this section of Sun Pin’s Art of War:, and apply to the concept of automaking, and I think you may start to see why criticisms of your company's own weaknesses CAN'T be ignored:

 

In a section entitled "military defeat," Sun Pin notes again the need to adhere to yin and yang. For example, to "contend with the enemies strength" instead of striking at his weaknesses brings about defeat through the "maltreatment of one's own forces." Furthermore, even if one has knowledge of tactical formations, knows the terrain, and seemingly has the spirit of the people behind him, it is still possible to fall into a trap or difficulty because of ignorance and lack of understanding of the limits of national strategy.

 

(National strategy can be defined as the goals or objectives of the politico-military posture of a state. If the national strategy does not complement the actual political reality of a state, there develops what is termed in the modern world a "credibility gap." Disaster and defeat, according to Sun Pin, are imminent when a state has a positive and forward national strategy and there exists within that same state a political situation that will not sustain and support such a strategy. Other aspects that lead to defeat are listed as the failure to take advantage of opportunities, ignorance of one's mistakes and errors, lack of insight into changing circumstances, doubts and anxieties, lack of comprehensive preparations, and politico-military policies that are not in harmony with the psychology and desires of the people.

 

 

Regarding my "allegiance" to Asian automakers......geez...... I've purchased *one* KIA after 27 years of domestic ownership. I've still got 3 domestic vehicles at home, 2 Chevy's and a Ford. I thought that I made that point pretty clear in several posts, but I guess I have to again. Please try to not assume where my "allegiances" lie without a few more facts available than a handful of posts on BON, okay?

 

So far the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr trio are keeping their noses clean defects-wise, and there are many accolades being posted by owners. THAT IS GREAT NEWS!!!

 

The 500/Montego twins get an undeserved rap regarding their styling, and again they seem to have the quality boogyman at bay. That info, coupled with their safety ratings make me think that these are truly fine cars. THAT IS GREAT NEWS!!!

 

The new Mustang is a kick-ss car, and I've even expressed interest on these boards about selling my '88 LX 5.0 and getting a new Mach I if they ever come out with one (AND I can afford to). THAT IS GREAT NEWS!!!

 

There.... I've compressed into 3 statements the same positive things I've said about Ford in my previous posts.

 

But objective reporting is a double edged sword. I *still* think my KIA Spectra is also one great little car, and that impression was thoroughly confirmed by 5 days recently spent in a rental 2004 Nissan Sentra while a scratch on my car was being fixed. The Sentra was basically late '90s technology, and I loathed that car. And it wasn't due to it being a rental..... it was due to the design of it really sucked from my perspective, esp. when contrasting it to my newer design Spectra. I guess Nissan's got a new Sentra coming out next year, so even THAT comparison won't be accurate in just a few months. Funny how perceptions work, eh?

 

So... no one's uninformed comments about "Korean sh-t" is going to nullify what my own experiences show me. And getting back to the "Art of War" message above, I'll defend positive experiences or observations I make about foreign cars on this "competitors" forum JUST SO DOMESTIC-ONLY LOVERS AND MANUFACTURERS DON'T GET TOO SMUG OR COMPLACENT!

 

 

In any case, that's my response to Tim's question(s), for those who were the remotely least bit interested.

 

 

-Ovaltine

Edited February 9, 2006 by Ovaltine

[tim kakouris]

lotta verbage as a retort there, oval. not a strawman argument, just an observation of what i read here and hear on the streets. i do believe there will be a huge sigh of relief when our entire auto industry goes belly-up, and we can all be happy ovaltine's, driving blissfully around in characterless ubiquitous asian boxes.

 

your allegance? doggedly defending every nuance of the kia. if the kia's exhaust smelled like roses, i'm sure you'd post that, too.

[ebritt]

Those Kias have 'great' resale value don't they? I'll get a Chevy Cavalier before any Kia.

 

Watch it............

 

My 04 explorer has puddle light...they are very handy. They fold in too.

 

 

wooopee! :P

 

Look at your market share, I think you are missing the point. I think you should qualify your statement about sweatshops. If they are taking advantage of little kids, fine that is wrong, but if some adult is happy to get a couple of dollars a day because that is a good salary for them, great for them. I have been to third world countries, asian countries, all over, and people are poor yes, so they would be glad to work in your "sweatshop". Just because they don't make $35 per hour to sit around most of the day, don't hold it against him. By the way, my experience with the high paid union guy doing nothing has been seen in a few

GM plants. They took a two hour breakfast break to watch tv in the break room. I was contracted to work in their plant, so I stayed with guys from the plant. I was amazed at their "union" mentality. Now I wonder how big 3 cars are even as cheap as they are with all the non productivity. I know everyone is not lazy, but my snapshot of a few GM plants probably means there are others as well. My point is changes need to be made. Cutting 30,000 jobs will open people's eyes. I hope things change, or we will continue to lose market share.

 

My snapshot is even worse. One night while working in a stamping plant in Lansing I went to a place called Gatewood bar and grille for lunch (Dinner, I was on nights) It is between two GM plants. While there(having a BLT and a coke) I saw about 10 guys and a couple of women at alarge table next to us. They all were from GM, on the clock, radios on the table (i assume they were maintenance guys) DRUNK OFF THEIR ASS!!!

 

Thank you UAW. :blink:

[Jimmy Ray]

Ovaltine,

How much time do you spend researching stuff to prove your point? I would have gven up long ago... I've read all the posts on this thread and basiclly I want this last hour of my life back.....

 

Personaly I don't care that you like a Kia better than my Milan..... In the end I'm happy that I'm happy and I'm happy your happy....

 

But My Bullitt is better than your Kia dam it...

[mkoesel]

My 89 Mustang had one. my 90 Festiva has one and my 01 Mustang does not. I found it so annoying to try and remember to pop the fuel door on my 89 Mustang that I ended up bending the bracket so it wouldn't lock anymore. Now if I could only find a way to not use the key on the Festiva fuel door, then I would be happy.

 

I'll agree with you that remote fuel doors are a pain in the ass. But locking fuel doors need not be a nuisance. Many cars simply lock and unlock the fuel door as you lock and unlock the car itself. Simple.

 

Necessary? Probably not, given the anti-siphon measures mentioned above.

[Mach150]

lotta verbage as a retort there, oval. not a strawman argument, just an observation of what i read here and hear on the streets. i do believe there will be a huge sigh of relief when our entire auto industry goes belly-up, and we can all be happy ovaltine's, driving blissfully around in characterless ubiquitous asian boxes.

 

your allegance? doggedly defending every nuance of the kia. if the kia's exhaust smelled like roses, i'm sure you'd post that, too.

 

I couldn't have said it better, Tim. Ovaltine makes a few good points, but DAMN if he is not tenacious in his defense of the Kia. It just goes on and on...

[Roadrunner]

So after reading the above articles, if you still seriously want to drive this:

 

instead of this:

 

...then be my royal uninformed guest!

 

That Kia looks ugly. Tell Kia to make a new front end on that car.

 

 

 

Ovaltine wrote:

<<In my new Spectra, I simply lowered my window (using its 1-TOUCH DOWN mode... a nice feature), folded my mirror back against my car, raised the window, and easily exited the car through the now wide-open door.>>

 

Most Ford and GM vehicles today have the one-touch-down system. What is your proof the Fusion does not have one?

 

 

<<Yes... I was aware of the type of lights you first mentioned. I've seen them on several kinds of pickup trucks. I was simply pointing out that my (ahem) "piece of crap" KIA has a similar standard feature that serves the purpose you described. Those lights on the bottom of my doors light the step-out area well too.>>

 

The Ford 500 has those -- not sure about the Fusion.

 

And, wait, did I just restart a thread from January? (Looks sheepish if so)

[Guest Sixcav]

All you sumbitches SHUT UP!!! lol :slap: Sheesh!!

Edited May 2, 2006 by Sixcav

[bec5150]

If only the Ford Dealers that "should" own a dealership in the United States were allowed to own one, I doubt if there would be a hundred in the country.

I know of three within 20 miles of my house that should be boarded up. Get this. Ford offers a "Presidents award" for superioir customer service. IN the Dayton OH area we have at least 10 Ford dealers. Only one has won this award. ONE!

 

Sick, eh?

[FordPaul]

My Fusion is a solid, fuel-efficient, mid-size sedan that rides very well and quietly. It is a joy to drive and I haven't seen any quality issues worthy of a Kia owner's bashing whose mindset is pro-Kia to an absurd point. It is a sad day in America when we have lost out textiles, our leather industries, our electronics, and soon to be furniture industries. Are we going to let them roll over our automobile industry as well? Our kids can't all work for the government or Walmart, will there be anything left for them?

If all the asian jobs created here replace the Detroit jobs have we broken even? I think not, because these asians aren't stupid, the profit goes back to their countries and has anyone checked the trade deficit lately? It's a real shame these countries are bankrolling us now. And we let it happen, while in their countries they want nothing American except friggin Starbucks and designer jeans that probably aren't even made here anymore.

Here in Virginia we are losing a Ford truck plant and 2 days after the announcement Toyota has the BALLS to announce Virginia is in the running for a new plant, if we come up with 100 million in incentives!!!

What the hell is wrong with this picture? It's an insult to us taxpayers and the timing is typical of Toyotas cockiness.

So Ovaltine, good luck with your KIA, I'm glad your happy with it but everytime I see one I think the KIA must stand for KRAP IN AMERICA. We import plenty of it everyday in this country.

[Guest Sixcav]

:beerchug: Yes, Paul!!! A real American. I am so sick of this little punk ass bitches that buy their little damned shit banger Kia's and imported Jap shit and then have to gaul to act like they aren't doing their country an injustice. I know that at one point in time (20 years ago) it was a commonly known fact that Japanesse cars were far more reliable than domestic cars. But such is not the case now, nor has it been for some time. If this fool had spent five minutes doing some research on the internet with respect to long term relaiblity he would have already found that Ford and GM are far more reliable in the long run than his junky ass Kia mobile. He just bought the damn thing because it was made by an asian company and like a brainless twit he just assumed, like many of the masses out there do, that anything made along the east asian portion of the contenient must be ultra reliable and far better than any domestic brand. This is of course not the case at all.

Guess what fool, we make good cars in America, some of the best in the world in fact. It takes the Japanesse the likes of Lexus and Acura to beat our out our Chevrolets and Fords that sell for much less. So drive your little shitbanger Kia if you think it's so damned great. Just know that assholes like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Good post Paul, you're alright with me buddy.

[Ovaltine]

.....I am so sick of this little punk ass bitches that buy their little damned shit banger Kia's and imported Jap shit and then have to gaul to act like they aren't doing their country an injustice. I know that at one point in time (20 years ago) it was a commonly known fact that Japanesse cars were far more reliable than domestic cars. But such is not the case now, nor has it been for some time. If this fool had spent five minutes doing some research on the internet with respect to long term relaiblity he would have already found that Ford and GM are far more reliable in the long run than his junky ass Kia mobile.

 

.....He just bought the damn thing because it was made by an asian company and like a brainless twit he just assumed, like many of the masses out there do, that anything made along the east asian portion of the contenient must be ultra reliable and far better than any domestic brand. This is of course not the case at all.

 

.....So drive your little shitbanger Kia if you think it's so damned great. Just know that assholes like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Good post Paul, you're alright with me buddy.

 

Awwwwright. I've tried being completely civil on here, tried to let this particular thread die a dignified death, AND even ignore the last few attempts at trying to reignite the flames.

 

BUT.... I've *gotta* respond to the above.

 

Look Caveman:

 

I'll bet there were a lot of American television manufacturing employees that were pissed at all of you U.S. autoworkers who were blowing their big paychecks and bonus checks on foreign made TVs. Ditto for all the autoworker purchases of foreign-produced clothes, dorm fridges, microwaves, stereos, telephones...... you get the point.

 

Why should YOUR bloody product/industry be any different than the others mentioned above? What the hell makes an friggin' transportation appliance more of a "sacred cow" than the products and livelihoods of the other items mentioned above? Geez.... many of you act on here like domestic auto manufacturing is a cult or religion that can't be "blasphemed" or a person's damned to hell!

 

Tell you what..... when YOU empty your home of ALL the foreign made goods I mentioned above, THEN you can wave your "patriotism" and little American flag in my face. Until then, you can

 

 

Btw.... nearly 2 years and 22k miles later, my "shit banger" KIA is problem free and running like a champ. So much for your "junky ass" theory. And if I *DO* have a problem in the next 3-8 years, at least it will be repaired under my 5 year/60k bumper-to-bumper OR 10 year/100k drivetrain warranty. Undoubtedly that warranty will be put to use at some point. But please...... stop trying to convince people like myself who drive a car for the time and distance I have with no problems that our cars are "shit bangers" just because UAW workers didn't screw it together.

 

I've owned an Escort replete with heat susceptible TFI modules, breaking timing belts, cracking aluminum heads, and crappy fuel pumps. My wife (and thus I) have owned a Tempo that put us on a first name basis with the local Ford Service manager due to it's fuel injection that would quit and leave the car stranded on the road. It TOO suffered from the infamous TFI module cluster-bleep that spawned a class action law suit that Ford lost. I've also owned a small Chrysler that had an extremely rough 1st year of ownership (but that later proved itself quite well over 10 years). Trust me.... I *know* a true "shit banger" when I see or own one.

 

And as you read that, keep in mind that last week I had to "Google" out info for my co-worker on Ford's past recall on the Focus due to its front springs snapping due to corrosion. Seems his daughter's four year old Focus with about 50k miles on it had one of the front springs literally snap on her, ruining the tire. The other spring was also about to go according to the tire outfit that repaired it.

 

Luckily for my co-worker I was able to ferret out the information from Ford on how he can at least request a $250 reimbursement for the new springs and installation. The tire, alignment, and struts were on him though. The entire job cost nearly a $1,000.

 

Looks like KIA's not the only one producing "shit bangers", eh?

 

 

-Ovaltine

Edited May 3, 2006 by Ovaltine

[06StangAwesomecar]

Awwwwright. I've tried being completely civil on here, tried to let this particular thread die a dignified death, AND even ignore the last few attempts at trying to reignite the flames.

 

BUT.... I've *gotta* respond to the above.

 

Look Caveman:

 

I'll bet there were a lot of American television manufacturing employees that were pissed at all of you U.S. autoworkers who were blowing their big paychecks and bonus checks on foreign made TVs. Ditto for all the autoworker purchases of foreign-produced clothes, dorm fridges, microwaves, stereos, telephones...... you get the point.

 

Why should YOUR bloody product/industry be any different than the others mentioned above? What the hell makes an friggin' transportation appliance more of a "sacred cow" than the products and livelihoods of the other items mentioned above? Geez.... many of you act on here like domestic auto manufacturing is a cult or religion that can't be "blasphemed" or a person's damned to hell!

 

Tell you what..... when YOU empty your home of ALL the foreign made goods I mentioned above, THEN you can wave your "patriotism" and little American flag in my face. Until then, you can

Btw.... nearly 2 years and 22k miles later, my "shit banger" KIA is problem free and running like a champ. So much for your "junky ass" theory. And if I *DO* have a problem in the next 3-8 years, at least it will be repaired under my 5 year/60k bumper-to-bumper OR 10 year/100k drivetrain warranty. Undoubtedly that warranty will be put to use at some point. But please...... stop trying to convince people like myself who drive a car for the time and distance I have with no problems that our cars are "shit bangers" just because UAW workers didn't screw it together.

 

I've owned an Escort replete with heat susceptible TFI modules, breaking timing belts, cracking aluminum heads, and crappy fuel pumps. My wife (and thus I) have owned a Tempo that put us on a first name basis with the local Ford Service manager due to it's fuel injection that would quit and leave the car stranded on the road. It TOO suffered from the infamous TFI module cluster-bleep that spawned a class action law suit that Ford lost. I've also owned a small Chrysler that had an extremely rough 1st year of ownership (but that later proved itself quite well over 10 years). Trust me.... I *know* a true "shit banger" when I see or own one.

 

And as you read that, keep in mind that last week I had to "Google" out info for my co-worker on Ford's past recall on the Focus due to its front springs snapping due to corrosion. Seems his daughter's four year old Focus with about 50k miles on it had one of the front springs literally snap on her, ruining the tire. The other spring was also about to go according to the tire outfit that repaired it.

 

Luckily for my co-worker I was able to ferret out the information from Ford on how he can at least request a $250 reimbursement for the new springs and installation. The tire, alignment, and struts were on him though. The entire job cost nearly a $1,000.

 

Looks like KIA's not the only one producing "shit bangers", eh?

-Ovaltine

 

 

First of all you keep bringing up cars from the 80's, get over it. It is 2006. Then you purchased the cheapest vehicles Ford made, they were never intended to go over 100k. And all the import scrape of that time period had ALOT of issues too.

And you will need that warranty, from all the complaints, and lawsuits, to the poor crash tests, to their bottom of the list at J.D power.

In the 3yr quality study, Lincoln was #2, Mercury was #8, and Ford was #12, Kia was so far down, I am suprised they listed it.

Oh one more thing, do you go thru trash cans, looking for bottle returns, for gas money?

[silvrsvt]

First of all you keep bringing up cars from the 80's, get over it. It is 2006. Then you purchased the cheapest vehicles Ford made, they were never intended to go over 100k.

 

Thats kind funny...my family had 2 escorts get well over 100K on them...a 86 Escort GT with over 200K miles still on the road in 1998 and a 92 Escort that had a 130K on it before it was flipped by its new owner...with just a intake vavle that needed to be replaced.

[bec5150]

I am getting tire of reading "they take the profits back to Korea and Japan." I guess you all will feel great when Ford, in 20 years, manufactures everying in China and Mexico because "at least the profits come back to the US."

 

Listen, the Honda plant in Marysville pays their workers in real live, no kidding money. The Japanese "Delphi" equivilants that make parts her in the USA for Honda pay their workers in much the same way. Ford and Honda are not "American" companies, they are "Global" companies with stock available on the stock market and the profits are distributed to stock holders, AMERICAN stockholders. But who gives a damn? It ain't the profits that the working man gets anyway, it's wages. And as far as I can tell, the plant that builds the Honda Accord pays out AMERICAN wages and the Ford Mexican plant that builds the Fusion doesn't.

 

Final thought, my broken record statement. I don't give a damn how reliable a Ford product is if I gotta have "Melvin the Phord Mekanik" who can't change a lightbulb do the warranty work on it. My Ranger had less warranty work than my CR-V but took over twice as many service calls to get fixed right and the one issue never did get fixed right. I had to buy a service manual and fix it myself.

Edited May 3, 2006 by bec5150

[Ovaltine]

First of all you keep bringing up cars from the 80's, get over it. It is 2006. Then you purchased the cheapest vehicles Ford made, they were never intended to go over 100k. And all the import scrape of that time period had ALOT of issues too.

And you will need that warranty, from all the complaints, and lawsuits, to the poor crash tests, to their bottom of the list at J.D power.

In the 3yr quality study, Lincoln was #2, Mercury was #8, and Ford was #12, Kia was so far down, I am suprised they listed it.

Oh one more thing, do you go thru trash cans, looking for bottle returns, for gas money?

Yes... it IS 2006. At least THAT much you have right.

 

And nightmares like THIS ongoing cluster-bleep posted today continue to propogate on this forum:

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...=20entry44519

 

Read the entire thread. This person has a beautiful 2002 $40k Ford T-Bird "paperweight". This is NOT an inexpensive Ford from the '80s, a statement that you like to discount my previous arguments with.

 

AND if you read my entire message above, somehow a 2002 Ford Focus with corroded and broken springs also doesn't seem to qualify as a ...."car from the 80's".

 

 

Look, it's apparent that Ford seems to be getting some religion on both design and quality. Kudos articles like this one in today's DetNews bear that out: :happy feet:

 

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...=73243443240297

 

Fusion marches past Camry

Ford's power, fit and finish trump Toyota's warhorse

 

 

But every one of those, there's usually 2 of these. This article ALSO printed in today's DetNews:

 

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...393/1148/AUTO01

 

A bold move for Ford: Do it right the first time

A s Ford Motor Co. launches yet another ad strategy -- "Bold Moves" -- how 'bout adding a sorely needed kicker: "Do it right the first time."

 

 

And finally..... the J.D. Power LTQ stats you keep shoveling out about KIA (and Hyundai too) will most likely be history by around 2009. I've discussed that on this same thread before. KIA's line is 90% revamped as of 2006, and the first car they revamped, my 2004.5 Spectra, took *2nd* place in the 2005 J.D. Powers IQS study... AHEAD of the Corolla and Civic. Read up online, and there's discussion of high IQS being linked to high LTQ. 2006 (all new vehicle lineup) + 3 years = 2009. YOU do the math.

 

Also.... the KIA Sedona minivan just passed the stringent IIHS safety with the highest safety grades ever recorded for a minivan.

 

The Sportage SUV and Amanti have also both won J.D. Powers customer satisfaction awards in 2005.

 

As I've stressed before in this thread, perception lags reality by about around 5 years. Paraphrasing your own words.... "you keep bringing up KIA's from the '90s/early 2000's, get over it. It is 2006."

 

Yes... it IS 2006. And Ford, GM, and Chrysler to a lesser extent better keep watching the mirror for companies like KIA and Hyundai, and do *everything* possible to stay ahead of them. Otherwise you ALL may be working for outfits like Hyundai-Mobis (a Hyundai parts and chassis supplier subsidiary), like my nephew now does down in Toledo.

 

 

-Ovaltine

Edited May 3, 2006 by Ovaltine