old_fairmont_wagon Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 My point was directed to when the Escape was originally developed. If Ford had X amount of dollars to either develop a hybrid escape, or make the 4 cylinder escape more fuel efficient, my argument was that the customer would have seen a better overall product with the efficiency and weight improvements that I suggested instead of doing the hybrid. In fact, in the scope of development costs, the hybrid was quite expensive and had a net cost of cross liscensing with Toyota to avoid a potentially long term and costly litigation that may or may have not gone Ford's way. The lightening techniques are well known, and would have cost much less to develop, and the economies of scale would have kept some of the materials costs down a bit. I still maintain that the escape could have been made to have similar combined cycle fuel efficiency numbers without needing a hybrid, or, for that matter, a diesel. And, in getting there, would have become a better handling vehicle at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvujeb Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 My point was directed to when the Escape was originally developed. If Ford had X amount of dollars to either develop a hybrid escape, or make the 4 cylinder escape more fuel efficient, my argument was that the customer would have seen a better overall product with the efficiency and weight improvements that I suggested instead of doing the hybrid. In fact, in the scope of development costs, the hybrid was quite expensive and had a net cost of cross liscensing with Toyota to avoid a potentially long term and costly litigation that may or may have not gone Ford's way. The lightening techniques are well known, and would have cost much less to develop, and the economies of scale would have kept some of the materials costs down a bit. I still maintain that the escape could have been made to have similar combined cycle fuel efficiency numbers without needing a hybrid, or, for that matter, a diesel. And, in getting there, would have become a better handling vehicle at the same time. When I stated that the taxis would be harder on components, I should have specified hybrid components. They are going to be charging and discharging a lot more often than most vehicles. Hybrids at this point are as much of a research and development effort as they are a sellable product. Like I said, hybrids have a lot of potential. By developing and selling hybrids, Ford can fine tune the technology while getting there name out there. When the hybrids of the future are developed, Ford will have a hybrid history and customers will have more confidence in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 wvujeb, I will definitely conceed that point to you. As the efficiency of hybrid systems improves, the corporate knowledge gained by the escape program will definitely be good. Personally, I just wish that Ford had a smallish turbo diesel ready to go for passenger cars in the us. Like a 1.6L 4 cylinder or something. A hybrid based around that would have fabulous highway mileage and phenomenal city mileage. Couple that with Lithium Ion batteries, and you'd really make the case for hybrids. An escape with that configuration could easily manage mid 40s in the city and on the highway. Make it a plug in and the numbers could be obscene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Anyone know why stability control isn't standard or even available on the hybrid model, is this something that will be fixed during this model year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I saw my first one today. It had the crome front which didn't look that bad. I have fond memories of the older F-series anyway. I couldn't tell you the colour though because all cars look the same with the salt-spray on them. I think it was a lighter colour upon closer inspection. I don't think new buyers will see the difference but I do. It looks more like a block with sharper corners yet not in a flying brick way if that makes sense. There is flow (for a SUV). I think it will do well overall if you overlook the glaring mechanical carry-overs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Anyone know why stability control isn't standard or even available on the hybrid model, is this something that will be fixed during this model year? My understanding is that they haven't yet figured out a way to get ESC to work in conjunction with the regenerative braking units on the hybrid version. Hopefully they are investigating a resolution for this. Didn't Ford say not too long ago that every model would have ESC by 2009? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 If they didn't, the DOT/NHTSA may tell them to. ITs fast becoming a standard like driver's side airbags. I'm trying to think, do any of the full hybrids out there have ESC? I'm thinking the Prius or the hybrid camry may offer it, but, that's just a guess. I know its not available on any of the Honda Hybrids. Might be worth checking on the second gen vue green-line for that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 If they didn't, the DOT/NHTSA may tell them to. ITs fast becoming a standard like driver's side airbags. I'm trying to think, do any of the full hybrids out there have ESC? I'm thinking the Prius or the hybrid camry may offer it, but, that's just a guess. I know its not available on any of the Honda Hybrids. Might be worth checking on the second gen vue green-line for that as well. It's available on both the Prius and Camry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvujeb Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 It's available on both the Prius and Camry. The Highland Hybrid has ESC as well though lately some have been complaining that it has prevented them from being able to get out of their driveway in less than 2" of snow. I have also heard that the problem with the ESC is the regenerative braking system. Lithium ion batteries and plug-in hybrids are still some time off. Right now lithium ions are the only solution for plug-in hybrids but safety and economics make it difficult. Lithium ions have the risk of bursting into flames (ie Dell battery recall). It has recently been discovered that they also have safety concerns at temperatures below freezing (32 F). Besides these safety concerns, the lifespan of lithium ion batteries are not as good as NiMh. Lithium ions only have a lifespan of roughly three years. Who wants to spend the extra money for a hybrid and then have to shell out another $5,000 or more for a new battery in 3 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I wasn't aware that the Lithium Ion batteries had such a short lifespan at that scale. In the PC world, which I work in every day, Lithion Ion batteries are much prefered as they offer more capacity per unit volume, are extremely resistant to battery memory, and usually last for the useful life of the laptop without needing replacement. They may behave differently in the scale they would need in a vehicle. However, the NiMH batteries might be prone to battery memory if not properly managed by the control system in the vehicle. Even with proper management, some driving cycles may lend themselves to partial charging and then static waits at partially charged states that really take their toal on NiMH batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 The Highland Hybrid has ESC as well though lately some have been complaining that it has prevented them from being able to get out of their driveway in less than 2" of snow. It'd be funny if Toyota offered Ford their ESC system, and it failed Ford's test regimen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 The ESC has nothing to do with traction control, how could you get stuck because of ESC? I have gotten stuck because of Traction Control, but the LS has a button for that. Most of the time, traction control prevents me from getting stuck. My rear-wheel drive LS still does MUCH better in the snow than my FWD Taurus, which had a tendency to fishtail if the wind blew too hard . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 IIRC, what happens is that the computer detects insufficient traction at all four wheels, and thus shuts the engine off. You'd have to check. It's an honest to goodness problem with Priuses. Google it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvujeb Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I wasn't aware that the Lithium Ion batteries had such a short lifespan at that scale. In the PC world, which I work in every day, Lithion Ion batteries are much prefered as they offer more capacity per unit volume, are extremely resistant to battery memory, and usually last for the useful life of the laptop without needing replacement. They may behave differently in the scale they would need in a vehicle. However, the NiMH batteries might be prone to battery memory if not properly managed by the control system in the vehicle. Even with proper management, some driving cycles may lend themselves to partial charging and then static waits at partially charged states that really take their toal on NiMH batteries. I'm not aware of any problems with NiMh and memory. Ford and Toyota never fully charge or fully discharge the battery. They attempt to keep the charge near the middle range. They have shown that this extends the life of the battery. Since the warranty on the battery is 8 years/100,000 miles or 10 years/150,000 miles (depending on what state you are in), I wouldn't consider battery memory to be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Well, admiedly, I deal with them at a smaller scale, and, I haven't dealt with them since Y2K much as every notebook that I've purchased at work has had a LI battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxrun Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 The way it drives will too... All kidding aside, this thing is a warmed-over Scion, for all intensive purposes, this is a Scion for fat people. or people over 4 feet tall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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