RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 don't think hours were spent...10 seconds on photoshop.....no need to re-invent anything...just a wasted opportunity to take additional steps above the competition...weak effort...even a three bar grille aka Fusion anything...but we don't want to let anyone know we made a true effort do we?....this wreeks of the "leave it pretty much alone, we really don't need to do anything to it because it will still sell" syndrome...wonder what would have happened if all of a sudden E-series sales dropped into the toilet because the competiotion raised the bar? Sick and tired of Ford being REACTIVE and NOT PRO_ACTIVE.....why not re-invent the wheel on a regular basis when given the opportunity...keeps the public interested and stimulated, granted this is just a van, but the premise of the overall philosophy stinks.... 1) Photoshop doesn't give you something your suppliers and stamping die makers can work with. 2) The Fusion grille wouldn't let in enough air to cool a 6.8L V10 or a 6.4L V8. Ford does consistently raise the bar on its commercial vehicles where it matters. They've upped class leading ratings on the E-Series, as they have on the SD and the F150. Where it matters they also up the style & function quotient (F150 & SD interiors, exterior sheetmetal). But it just doesn't matter here. I mean maybe there's some market demand for a funky van, but I don't see that at all. "Nobody" has families that big and RVs are (comparatively) too cheap and too well built to make an 8 passenger van appealing to a broad section of the market. Making a style statement with the E-Series, IMO, just doesn't cut it. As far as the interior goes--I guess I can see both sides of that. There doesn't seem to be much point in Ford using orphaned parts there, but then again, I can't see the need to redesign what is a functionally sound design. I just don't see these things (which are never on showroom floors--except maybe at purely commercial stores) being the object of any consumer interest whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 But it just doesn't matter here. I mean maybe there's some market demand for a funky van, but I don't see that at all. "Nobody" has families that big and RVs are (comparatively) too cheap and too well built to make an 8 passenger van appealing to a broad section of the market. Nobody? We owned a Chevy van when I was younger. It wasn't a full conversion, but it wasn't something you'd see on every dealer lot either. However, it seated 7 comfortably and was flat out AWESOME for road trips. The reason you don't see hardly any retail customers buying fullsize vans anymore is precisely because of the lack of updates. There are PLENTY of families out there with 4+ kids who don't like the idea of an 8 hour drive with everyone sitting within 2 inches of one another. Sure, it's not as large a market as it used to be, but the only reason there is NO market at all for it now is because nobody bothers to make a product to serve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 1) Photoshop doesn't give you something your suppliers and stamping die makers can work with. 2) The Fusion grille wouldn't let in enough air to cool a 6.8L V10 or a 6.4L V8. Ford does consistently raise the bar on its commercial vehicles where it matters. They've upped class leading ratings on the E-Series, as they have on the SD and the F150. Where it matters they also up the style & function quotient (F150 & SD interiors, exterior sheetmetal). But it just doesn't matter here. I mean maybe there's some market demand for a funky van, but I don't see that at all. "Nobody" has families that big and RVs are (comparatively) too cheap and too well built to make an 8 passenger van appealing to a broad section of the market. Making a style statement with the E-Series, IMO, just doesn't cut it. As far as the interior goes--I guess I can see both sides of that. There doesn't seem to be much point in Ford using orphaned parts there, but then again, I can't see the need to redesign what is a functionally sound design. I just don't see these things (which are never on showroom floors--except maybe at purely commercial stores) being the object of any consumer interest whatsoever. right on the photoshop...but it does let them know what a vehicle will look like...so some non-creative beancounter signed off on this half a$$ed effort. ( sorry if I am harping, I have a background in design...and this one annoys me...if this type of attitude extends to other models watch me loose it...may pull a McEnroe! ) Richard..."but it doesn't matter here" is the type of attitude the designers took on this monstrosity, van does not have to be "funky"....just show some damn creativity dammit! Don't just tack another model mug on the front, earn your bloody money! BOLD...NO WAY JOSE! Have Ford's designers completely lost any sort of origionality or are they being reined in?...THAT would be a big mistake, Chevy is on a roll right now...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) to simplfy, ford only seems to make an effort when they feel they have too...RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!....make the damn competition play catchup for a damn change....going to change my header to ANGRYMAN>..hahahaha Edited March 8, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Nobody? We owned a Chevy van when I was younger. It wasn't a full conversion, but it wasn't something you'd see on every dealer lot either. However, it seated 7 comfortably and was flat out AWESOME for road trips. The reason you don't see hardly any retail customers buying fullsize vans anymore is precisely because of the lack of updates. There are PLENTY of families out there with 4+ kids who don't like the idea of an 8 hour drive with everyone sitting within 2 inches of one another. Sure, it's not as large a market as it used to be, but the only reason there is NO market at all for it now is because nobody bothers to make a product to serve it. Nobody was in quotes for precisely that reason. My parents had 6 kids. We had a Club Wagon. And families are smaller than they were in the 80s, and (moreover) if there is a stigma attached to minivan ownership, there is certainly one attached to fullsize van ownership. (Just my two cents here) The idea today seems to be that kids should not at all be seen as interfering with the life and status you had, B.C.; therefore the acquisition of any vehicle obviously and pointedly tailored toward a family (minivan, or real van) indicates that your life has irrevocably changed, and you can't have it all anymore. As with the market for fullsize coupes, I don't see the lack of updates as killing the market, so much as both kind of died together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 telling ya, those 4x4 Quigley conversions were awesome...talk about " BOLD" looking no mini/ maxi van stigma there...and able to take 12-15 passengers...pretty much anywhere....probably too small a market though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 to simplfy, ford only seems to make an effort when they feel they have too...RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!....make the damn competition play catchup for a damn change....going to change my header to ANGRYMAN>..hahahaha Dean: I have a degree in art. As far as the above quote goes, I say there is no point in design for its own sake in this segment of the business. Were there a legitimate dollars and cents business case for going revolutionary with the front 1/4 of the van (and that's all we're talking about here: we stipulated earlier nothing changes aft of the A pillar), then sure, go for something totally out of the ordinary, but there isn't and engineering requirements mandate a big open space for cooling air. Regarding the 'make the competition play catch up', that's exactly what Ford did with this update. No other fullsize van had a 14,000lb GVWR. Let alone a 14,500lb rating. I mean Ford basically maxed out the class 5 rating with the E-550. Any higher GVWR, and you're into Class 6 territory--territory where no van chassis has ever been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 telling ya, those 4x4 Quigley conversions were awesome...talk about " BOLD" looking no mini/ maxi van stigma there...and able to take 12-15 passengers...pretty much anywhere....probably too small a market though Also, would it pay for Ford to go into competition with one of their upfitters? I mean a huge chunk of E-Series success is directly attributable to Ford's ability to keep its fleet buyers happy: to ascertain their needs, and design accordingly. If Ford were to suddenly start trying to knock various upfitters and bodybuilders out of business, how many would continue to buy from Ford? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Also, would it pay for Ford to go into competition with one of their upfitters? I mean a huge chunk of E-Series success is directly attributable to Ford's ability to keep its fleet buyers happy: to ascertain their needs, and design accordingly. If Ford were to suddenly start trying to knock various upfitters and bodybuilders out of business, how many would continue to buy from Ford? hell seems they have already done that to a bunch anyway...they seem to do anything to save themselves a dollar here a dollar there if they see a profitable option....if they can build a better product themselves for cheaper ,..why not.....? Dare I say they could produce a viable 4x4 version of the e-series for somewhat less than the 10-14k quigley charges?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Also, would it pay for Ford to go into competition with one of their upfitters? I mean a huge chunk of E-Series success is directly attributable to Ford's ability to keep its fleet buyers happy: to ascertain their needs, and design accordingly. If Ford were to suddenly start trying to knock various upfitters and bodybuilders out of business, how many would continue to buy from Ford? what competion?....if they thought they had competition they wouldn't have been so lack- a-daisical on this re-working.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 They do have competition. Competition that flat cannot provide what these buyers are looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01FOCI Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) I don't think that is a real picture, as the grills looks attached to the hood like on the SD and on a van hood it does not have enough travel to let the grill clear the engine bay. If you opened that hood the grill would still be smack dab in the middle! I def think its a clever photoshop with out much thought behind it. There's no way the grill can open with that short of a hood. Edited March 8, 2007 by 01FOCI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 They do have competition. Competition that flat cannot provide what these buyers are looking for. pretty much Chevy, Sprinter is a different cup of tea, which underlines one of my previous comments....no effort was made because they felt they didn't need too...I am only talking from the styling standpoint Rich....the payloads etc is good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I'm 100% with RJ on all of this. We use a 99 V-10 E-350 around here for toating around a workshop worth of tools, and radio tower base equipment. ITs a workhorse, nothing more, nothing less. The interior is functional, the front is no styling tour-de-force, but, we don't need it to be. All it has to be is rugged, reliable, and serviceable. The only place where I'm going to make any sort of comment here is in the area of the club wagon. With ford dropping their minivan line, and making their people mover without sliding doors, there might, and I stress MIGHT be a market for a low volume of semi plush interiored minivan substitutes in the E-150 line. If ford had the time and money to come up with a package for the E-150 that was comparable to the minivans out there, they might see similar sales to what the Freestar had, but on a line that is far more amortized than that line was. There is, I believe, a smallish market for a 7 to 8 passenger vehicle that has a considerable tow rating that want something more than a box with two captains chairs up front and a pair of bench seats behind them. Now, granted, there are conversion companies that cater to this market, but I believe that Ford could likely do a standard package and get some volume with it. But, as RJ said, that would be biting the hand that feeds you. My wife's uncle, the one with the 4 daughters, a couple of years ago took a family vacation to San Antonio. Three of the girls were dating at the time and wanted to bring their boyfriends. That's 9 people. They bought a GM van a couple of months prior to the trip in anticipation of taking several family trips like that. After they took the trip, they turned around and sold the thing. What didn't they like about it? It rode like it was a cargo van, there weren't enough cup holders and power points inside, and it got terrible gas mileage so all it did when not used for the trip was sit in their driveway and rot. They replace it with nothing as they decided that if they were going to do that again, they'd rent a van instead. With the advent of the large sized minivans out there (Sienna, Odyssey, grand caravan in late models) with fold in the floor seats, there's almost no retail need for the larger vans. They're almost all sold to commercial interests. Those interests are all about the functionality and repairability. Having an interior that can be fixed with the same parts that fixed the previous gen is a cost savings to fleets. As long as that interior is functional enough, they could care less how it looks. The minivan destroyed the retail market for these things, and conversion companies have whatever volume is left there. The updates to the E-series are enough for the market. That market is rather rigid in its requirements, so going very different with the van would only hinder its marketability and not help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) I'm 100% with RJ on all of this. We use a 99 V-10 E-350 around here for toating around a workshop worth of tools, and radio tower base equipment. ITs a workhorse, nothing more, nothing less. The interior is functional, the front is no styling tour-de-force, but, we don't need it to be. All it has to be is rugged, reliable, and serviceable. The only place where I'm going to make any sort of comment here is in the area of the club wagon. With ford dropping their minivan line, and making their people mover without sliding doors, there might, and I stress MIGHT be a market for a low volume of semi plush interiored minivan substitutes in the E-150 line. If ford had the time and money to come up with a package for the E-150 that was comparable to the minivans out there, they might see similar sales to what the Freestar had, but on a line that is far more amortized than that line was. There is, I believe, a smallish market for a 7 to 8 passenger vehicle that has a considerable tow rating that want something more than a box with two captains chairs up front and a pair of bench seats behind them. Now, granted, there are conversion companies that cater to this market, but I believe that Ford could likely do a standard package and get some volume with it. But, as RJ said, that would be biting the hand that feeds you. My wife's uncle, the one with the 4 daughters, a couple of years ago took a family vacation to San Antonio. Three of the girls were dating at the time and wanted to bring their boyfriends. That's 9 people. They bought a GM van a couple of months prior to the trip in anticipation of taking several family trips like that. After they took the trip, they turned around and sold the thing. What didn't they like about it? It rode like it was a cargo van, there weren't enough cup holders and power points inside, and it got terrible gas mileage so all it did when not used for the trip was sit in their driveway and rot. They replace it with nothing as they decided that if they were going to do that again, they'd rent a van instead. With the advent of the large sized minivans out there (Sienna, Odyssey, grand caravan in late models) with fold in the floor seats, there's almost no retail need for the larger vans. They're almost all sold to commercial interests. Those interests are all about the functionality and repairability. Having an interior that can be fixed with the same parts that fixed the previous gen is a cost savings to fleets. As long as that interior is functional enough, they could care less how it looks. The minivan destroyed the retail market for these things, and conversion companies have whatever volume is left there. The updates to the E-series are enough for the market. That market is rather rigid in its requirements, so going very different with the van would only hinder its marketability and not help it. I don;t deny anything Richard or you are saying at all, just angered at fords constant so called lack of effort...leave it alone we will sell them regardless atitudes, sure from a functional standpoint they excell, actually beyond reproach, but mainstream ho hum styling when given the opportunity has to stop...raise the bar a little for gods sake, don't wonder how long it is till the next smoke break.....Camrys and Accords sell regardless too, does it stop them from being a little more dramatic.... Edited March 8, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) sorry, backtrackin...quote from Rich...2) The Fusion grille wouldn't let in enough air to cool a 6.8L V10 or a 6.4L V8. How about a three bar concept that was a stamped aluminum mesh....just a thought........... Edited March 8, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 sorry, backtrackin...quote from Rich...2) The Fusion grille wouldn't let in enough air to cool a 6.8L V10 or a 6.4L V8.How about a three bar concept that was a stamped aluminum mesh....just a thought........... Well, it'd be spendy, and it might clot up with bugs..... Substitute plastic for real metal, and you've still got an issue with bugs. Re: Camry & Accord comparison--- Where it matters, in the last couple years, Ford has gone distinctive on the design--the Fusion was a decent first effort at 'wow', and the Edge absolutely knocks the ball out of the park (if I may hyperbolize) on the styling front. Where it matters, Ford has 'gotten religion', where it doesn't, like I say, I just can't blame them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 we can work the bugs out...hahaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Also, because air is a fluid having small perforations in a grille may not let in as much air, even if (added together) they equal the amount of open area in a grille with big fat openings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) Well, it'd be spendy, and it might clot up with bugs..... Substitute plastic for real metal, and you've still got an issue with bugs. Re: Camry & Accord comparison--- Where it matters, in the last couple years, Ford has gone distinctive on the design--the Fusion was a decent first effort at 'wow', and the Edge absolutely knocks the ball out of the park (if I may hyperbolize) on the styling front. Where it matters, Ford has 'gotten religion', where it doesn't, like I say, I just can't blame them. I certainly hope so richard because some recent efforts are severely wanton...the new Focus is close to mercurys version of the Contour, The Fusion is a Prelude rip-off but gets away with it due to peoples short term memory, F-150 getting long in the tooth, Taurus and Taurus X's band-aids...and how did the first versions make it past so called discerning eyes...Crown vic no comment...just bring out a yellow version, Ranger...don't get me started, even the Superduty (exterior ) is barely discernable from the 07 models...no inspiration there but GREAT truck, Mustang is also starting to age but cudo's there, Edge...thumbs up...a sign?.. I thought so...but now the E-series....I'm joining Alcoholics anonymous.... Edited March 8, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Also, because air is a fluid having small perforations in a grille may not let in as much air, even if (added together) they equal the amount of open area in a grille with big fat openings. explains why I got drenched motorcycling to work in So Cal sun this morning...hahaha. My suggestion on the grill was just an alternative to what we got forced upon us.....there are engineering answers/ compromises to all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I don't think that is a real picture, as the grills looks attached to the hood like on the SD and on a van hood it does not have enough travel to let the grill clear the engine bay. If you opened that hood the grill would still be smack dab in the middle! I def think its a clever photoshop with out much thought behind it. There's no way the grill can open with that short of a hood. Well, it may be a different design from the SD, where the main grille portion remains stationary above the bumper while only the chrome brow on top is the only portion of the grille actually attached to the hood. I see your point though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Well, it may be a different design from the SD, where the main grille portion remains stationary above the bumper while only the chrome brow on top is the only portion of the grille actually attached to the hood. I see your point though. clamshell...hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I certainly hope so richard because some recent efforts are severely wanton...the new Focus is close to mercurys version of the Contour, The Fusion is a Prelude rip-off but gets away with it due to peoples short term memory, F-150 getting long in the tooth, Taurus and Taurus X's band-aids...and how did the first versions make it past so called discerning eyes...Crown vic no comment...just bring out a yellow version, Ranger...don't get me started, even the Superduty (exterior ) is barely discernable from the 07 models...no inspiration there but GREAT truck, Mustang is also starting to age but cudo's there, Edge...thumbs up...a sign?.. I thought so...but now the E-series....I'm joining Alcoholics anonymous.... I'm not going to rip on the Focus yet. It may have tested very well among the consumers that Ford is aiming for. Lots of people here don't like the xB either, and it's doing well enough. Given the increased attention to customer input seen in the Edge, Fusion, etc., I'm in no hurry to write off the Focus. --- The fusion's headlights are something of a rip-off of the Prelude, but people are buying the grille, not the headlights, and the grille is all Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 grill had positive reveiws...gave them an excuse to slap it on anything they could...along w Edge headlights....LOL! Derivative styling 101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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