RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 The grille and headlights were 'slapped on' the Fusion. However, that grille was a central element on the Edge. You can tell. The Edge, from front to rear, has remarkable purity of line. The Fusion does not. Besides.... Who's up for crashing a BMW forum and complaining about THEIR trademark grille? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 The grille and headlights were 'slapped on' the Fusion. However, that grille was a central element on the Edge. You can tell. The Edge, from front to rear, has remarkable purity of line. The Fusion does not. Besides.... Who's up for crashing a BMW forum and complaining about THEIR trademark grille? Me...hahaha, but think about it rich...BMW comes out with anew model and is ALREADY re-styling engineering the succesor....there is ZERO down time with those guys...heres that word again..PRO_ACTIVE! And yes the Edge works.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) That's the way Ford is with their trucks. In 30 years, I don't think they've given GM a year off. But to cars: They are gradually getting that mindset together with their cars. With operation "Ballpark", the goal was to take D3, CD3, and C1, and continually improve those architectures with minor upgrades at 3 year intervals, and major refinements at 6 years. Of course, the decision to go with EUCD instead of CD3 and D3 (which resulted in a perception that Ford was farther behind in platform sharing than they really were) somewhat complicates things. However, Ford appears to have finally 'gotten it' about their passenger cars, and the midcycle update on the D3s is pretty substantial (new interior materials, if not a new layout), re-engineered sound deadening and NVH, and a nice powertrain boost. Compared with 1) what Ford used to do, and 2) what Toyota does with the Camry every 3 years (nothing, pretty much), it's commendable. You always have people that want Ford to go all the way all at once, but it's pretty hard to do that with a lineup as wide as Ford's is. Edited March 8, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 That's the way Ford is with their trucks. In 30 years, I don't think they've given GM a year off. But to cars: They are gradually getting that mindset together with their cars. With operation "Ballpark", the goal was to take D3, CD3, and C1, and continually improve those architectures with minor upgrades at 3 year intervals, and major refinements at 6 years. Of course, the decision to go with EUCD instead of CD3 and D3 (which resulted in a perception that Ford was farther behind in platform sharing than they really were) somewhat complicates things. However, Ford appears to have finally 'gotten it' about their passenger cars, and the midcycle update on the D3s is pretty substantial (new interior materials, if not a new layout), re-engineered sound deadening and NVH, and a nice powertrain boost. Compared with 1) what Ford used to do, and 2) what Toyota does with the Camry every 3 years (nothing, pretty much), it's commendable. You always have people that want Ford to go all the way all at once, but it's pretty hard to do that with a lineup as wide as Ford's is. Ford re-engineers I agree, althought they need some help with their drivetrains...why we can't get the things as smooth as the Japs after all these years is beyond me. Hopefully what you say is true...but the E-series has me biting my lip if that isn't a complacent styling effort nothing is...and I have ALWAYS said ford should ditch half of it's lineup and spend the saved money on CONSISTANTLY improving their core models or introducing Niche ( ie high profit )models...I mean what was the need /desire for the freestyle anyway????That car completely lost me. And whilst we are at it...take a note from the Japs...3 models thats it...thats the way they come NO choices...Ford thought building cars MILLIONS of different ways would appeal to a broader base...instead it just creates confusion...ever see a King Ranch Camry...an Ironman Accord....A Halle Berry Hyundai ( actually at least that sounds nice..hahaha ) I see signs...but the results still leave a margin for improvement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 That's the way Ford is with their trucks. In 30 years, I don't think they've given GM a year off.........Rich if this is Fords mentality they need to take the blinders off...they should not just be lookin at GM.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Oddly enough, the timing belt is the cheese. Ford doesn't use them because they don't last 100k. That is one of the most frustrating things about Ford lo these past 20 years. They have probably some of the highest standards for durability and build quality in their 'cookbook' (it's one of the reasons for the high ride height Blueblood complains about). But because they've done such a fantastic job of cutting costs on materials, cutting corners on launches, and beating assembly line workers until morale improves, it has not translated to finished product. -- Also, the trend at the imports is (ironically) increased option packaging. The days of the EX, DX, LX and "" Accord are drawing to a close. Cutting models to a minimum imitates where companies like Honda were, not where they're going (consider the '95 Honda range: Civic/CRX/Del Sol, Accord/Prelude, vs. today: Civic, Accord, CRV, Odyssey, Pilot, Element, S2000--kind of) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 That's the way Ford is with their trucks. In 30 years, I don't think they've given GM a year off.........Rich if this is Fords mentality they need to take the blinders off...they should not just be lookin at GM.... The OTHER thing that Ford needs to transfer from their truck unit to the rest of the company is this: Ford's truck unit is not terribly interested in what the competition is doing. They're interested in what their customers want. Hence the tailgate step (and the tailgate assist), integrated bed extender, 3rd & 4th doors, mid box, etc. None of those would've come from a company looking primarily at its competition. They come from a company looking primarily at its customers. It's one of the lessons Ford should've learned from the Taurus as well. The Taurus wasn't designed in reference to other products from GM and Dodge. Ford's engineers started (more or less) with a clean sheet and took their ideas straight to the customer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinb120 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) I have owned half a dozen E-series driving them several hundred thousand miles with my flooring business. They should of just left it alone. They had just done a few updates to it last year(invisible, but who give a shit what they look like-they owner's sure dont). I have lost a couple sales to sprinters since they have come along, but ended up with selling more to cross-shoppers who ended up with cube bodies over sprinters. Its a work truck, who cares about the styling. It didn't help GM vans get any better or sell more. If they were going to do anything, they should of put the V6 powerstroke from the LCF in it, but like the F-150, that would make too much sense, Ford doesn't like doing that too often. You have to remember, upfitters have bodies/racks and all kinds of aftermarket add ons configured to fit the current body, and most contractors simply move custom setups into the next van every 5 years or so. It would really suck for a lot of people if it changed. Not to mention, contractors do not chase latest and greatest looks. If a brand new van comes out with bling and all kinds of stuff-meaningful or not, customer's think you make too much money. And other contractors can get a 5-year old econo and customers don't think they can not do enough business to afford new stuff. And with any sizeable company, the owner of the vans rarely drive them. They are appliances. Why haven't they changed all new refridgerators to 9' tall by 5' wide on 220V? They upgraded the GVWR for 150's in 07 to 250 specs, they should add the 3v 5.4 and the 4.2 TT V6 diesel and call it a day. Edited March 8, 2007 by kevinb120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Oddly enough, the timing belt is the cheese. Ford doesn't use them because they don't last 100k. That is one of the most frustrating things about Ford lo these past 20 years. They have probably some of the highest standards for durability and build quality in their 'cookbook' (it's one of the reasons for the high ride height Blueblood complains about). But because they've done such a fantastic job of cutting costs on materials, cutting corners on launches, and beating assembly line workers until morale improves, it has not translated to finished product. -- Also, the trend at the imports is (ironically) increased option packaging. The days of the EX, DX, LX and "" Accord are drawing to a close. Cutting models to a minimum imitates where companies like Honda were, not where they're going (consider the '95 Honda range: Civic/CRX/Del Sol, Accord/Prelude, vs. today: Civic, Accord, CRV, Odyssey, Pilot, Element, S2000--kind of) good perspective...if that is indeed true then how come the Toyotas of the world have their/ a better reliability rap? And I'm all for simplification of product lineup...Ford has gotten ridiculous...400 ways to build a Ranger...399 are not exactly what you want....just another way to leave the dealership whilst hearing "What if I could..." in the background. Trucks...XL, XLT, Lariat....FX?????, King Ranch????? Which bloody red neck came up with that????? one option on that should be bloody Steer Horns., Limiteds, Sports packages, Two tone packages, Harleys........Lexus has it right...oh you want the Nav system...it comes as part of this package which includes Moonroof, this and that...and sorry THATS the only way it comes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinb120 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) Check out the IS on Lexu's website. They offer a base car, and one of 5 packages that all cost $7000 or more(hence the 'competitive' starting price). My buddy was dumb enough to get one of those, 41k for a 4cyl car about the size of a corolla. Edited March 8, 2007 by kevinb120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Check out the IS on Lexu's website. They offer a base car, and one of 5 packages that all cost $7000 or more(hence the 'competitive' starting price). My buddy was dumb enough to get one of those, 41k for a 4cyl car about the size of a corolla. yep...but fact is it made his choice for him didn't it...and probably quickly.....it wasn;t i'd like this, not that, this...maybe that...with those wheels...that darker dashboard...I need automatic climate controls...no third seat that just wastes space....no privacy glass, I tow though but only need the class 3 hitch...really want the cloth top not the vinal, chamois interior....no roof, yes DVD...do you get my drift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 The OTHER thing that Ford needs to transfer from their truck unit to the rest of the company is this: Ford's truck unit is not terribly interested in what the competition is doing. They're interested in what their customers want. Hence the tailgate step (and the tailgate assist), integrated bed extender, 3rd & 4th doors, mid box, etc. None of those would've come from a company looking primarily at its competition. They come from a company looking primarily at its customers. It's one of the lessons Ford should've learned from the Taurus as well. The Taurus wasn't designed in reference to other products from GM and Dodge. Ford's engineers started (more or less) with a clean sheet and took their ideas straight to the customer. agreed but they can't rest on their laurels...and if they think GM is their ownly heir apparent they are sadly mistaken, and right now their engineers are doing a superior job than the stylists...and styling is HUGE....more people base their buying decisions on initial WOW than what is under the sheetmetal...( evens out with commercial vehicles ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinb120 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 another 3 years till it's 20th birthday! Thats a testament to how good a vehicle it is. The B-52 will hit the 100 year old mark during its service life, and that is the age of the ACTUAL aircraft. Some of the pilots now are grandchildren of pilots that flew the same planes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 no doubt shes a keeper, still can't figure out why the tin cans cost so much....tooling was paid off more than a decade ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 good perspective...if that is indeed true then how come the Toyotas of the world have their/ a better reliability rap? And I'm all for simplification of product lineup...Ford has gotten ridiculous...400 ways to build a Ranger...399 are not exactly what you want....just another way to leave the dealership whilst hearing "What if I could..." in the background. Trucks...XL, XLT, Lariat....FX?????, King Ranch????? Which bloody red neck came up with that????? one option on that should be bloody Steer Horns., Limiteds, Sports packages, Two tone packages, Harleys........Lexus has it right...oh you want the Nav system...it comes as part of this package which includes Moonroof, this and that...and sorry THATS the only way it comes... 1) Ford didn't assign the proper value to what they had. Toyota did. 2) Toyota has copied Ford's trim level hierarchy. Also, King Ranch seems to do okay (you do know that there is a "King Ranch", right? Biggest ranch in Texas, and also the yet known universe). Further, Toyota consistently gets nailed on SSI surveys. Not everything that Toyota or Honda does is right, or deserving of imitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Ranch The King Ranch is just the largest ranch in Texas. Not necessarily the universe. Although to some Texans, I'm sure the two are synonymous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) 1) Ford didn't assign the proper value to what they had. Toyota did. 2) Toyota has copied Ford's trim level hierarchy. Also, King Ranch seems to do okay (you do know that there is a "King Ranch", right? Biggest ranch in Texas, and also the yet known universe). Further, Toyota consistently gets nailed on SSI surveys. Not everything that Toyota or Honda does is right, or deserving of imitation. then keep the King Ranches in Texas...good god man....how many different colors are necessary in an interior....that must also be the same demographic that the baccy chewing guitar strummer is appealing to in some of fords adds.....sorry..what does SSI stand for?....and Toyota runs all the way to the bank on their dependability title.... Edited March 8, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 1) Sales Satisfaction Index. It's a JD Power survey. Toyota is perennially in the bottom third. 2) Where are you at? I'm in South Dakota, and the King Ranches and Eddie Bauers are pretty popular up here--and it's not a state full of baccy chewing guitar strummers either (although I saw more than enough Ag majors carrying Mountain Dew bottle "spitties" around with them during my time at State). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 (edited) 1) Sales Satisfaction Index. It's a JD Power survey. Toyota is perennially in the bottom third. 2) Where are you at? I'm in South Dakota, and the King Ranches and Eddie Bauers are pretty popular up here--and it's not a state full of baccy chewing guitar strummers either (although I saw more than enough Ag majors carrying Mountain Dew bottle "spitties" around with them during my time at State). FUNNY! I;m here in So Cal...so we need ads including bumper to bumper traffic, roller girls on cell phones that have their roots died black, bleached capped teeth, one fingered sign language, falsies and guys with sunglasses on at 12pm at night wondering if their Martini's are shaken or stirred...LOVE STEREO TYPES...mainly because they're based on truth...SSI obviously means nout to the public...they must read consumer LIE-ports... Edited March 9, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96towncarcartier Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 I think it looks great! Keep in mind, in 1989 E Series was Motor Trend Truck of the Year. THese vans SELL because they are workhorses, and great vehicles. Been in production since 1964. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 oh I also hear that the King ranches are the bomb with the Nascar crowd.... :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Well, it's closer to the truth to say people buy Toyotas in spite of their dealers, not because of them. It's one of many things Toyota does wrong that will come back (sooner or later) to bite them on the backside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Well, it's closer to the truth to say people buy Toyotas in spite of their dealers, not because of them. It's one of many things Toyota does wrong that will come back (sooner or later) to bite them on the backside. hope so...sure gives us aheadache.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Well, where you're at Toyota dealers could fill trunks with elephant crap and still sell them. at least that's the stereotype. Toyota has 23% of the total California market, and that includes such bastions of baccy chewing and truck ownership as Bakersfield, Fresno, and the rest of the San Joaquin valley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterstern Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Personally I thinks it looks a little better and unifies the look with the F-series... get's the styling out of the 1990s. But in a vehicle like this, styling isn't that important. Running costs are durability are. And the Sprinter apparently has the Econoline beat in this way... and customers who know how to crunch numbers are buying the Sprinter for that reason. But it wouldn't take that much to make the Econoline beat the Sprinter. To acheive that, the Econoline needs a set of modern engines and trannies. I still wonder about Ford Marketing. They talk about 305HP from a 6.8L V10 like it's actually something to be proud of. Do they know anything about what the competition is doing with their engines? Ford should be getting way more than 305HP from 6.8L... especially considering it's an OHC design. On the powertrain end, Ford needs: -modern base 6 cyl engine -modern 6cyl turbo diesel -modern/modernized V8 engines -modern and reliable V8 turbodiesel (not this recent Navistar crap) -Hybrid heavy duty diesel-electric model geared to people/businesses who drive these vans in cities a lot. Ford should do a low floor model and probably also a heavy duty dualie model. I see they talked about improved brakes. Let's hope that includes higher quality brake rotors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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