TStag Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 I'm not an American, I don't get Lincoln and as a European I kind of think it's a brand that is going through a long drawn out death as things stand. That said I think a little bit of a European perspective on Lincoln could save the company, which is something I would love to see. So bear with me. Over here in the UK the media is very hostile to any US car that claims to be luxurious. We have a motoring program here called Top Gear. The main presenter of this show is called Jeremy Clarkson. He recently made a TV program on DVD called the Good, the bad and the Ugly and in it he managed to express why Europeans won't buy into the concept of a premium American car. He argued that Americans can't make a car that goes round corners. He compared a top of the range Cadilac sportscar to a Mercedes SLK and then proceeded to rip apart the American car on quality, interior design, handeling, etc. He argued that the US car industry cannot make a 4x4 to compete with anything from Land Rover, BMW or Volvo. To be blunt he ripped the American PREMIUM car industry to shreds. Now Clarkson does go over the top, but he managed to get across on the DVD all the negative feelings Europeans have for American premium motors. So what does this mean for the likes of Lincoln? Well it means that Europeans won't risk their hard earned cash on a brand of car that could depreciate very heavily and on a brand which people simply don't see as a Ford of Europe beater never mind a BMW destroyer. So that means Lincoln can only try to sell it's cars in the US and Asia. But I have a solution to the problem of how to fix Lincoln and increase it's sales. Basically it's simple, replace the Jaguar X type with a Lincoln model. But call it a Rover! Rover is European and therefore stands a much better chance of persuading Europeans that it can do everything a European car can do. Let Land Rover's Gerry Mcgovern style the cars because he worked for Lincoln before and because he can make the cars acceptable to European and American drivers. Let Jag set up the handeling and get Lincoln to make it in the USA. Lincoln must stand on it's own two feet as a business, just like Jaguar must. But it must get it's cars into Europe. The Rover brand and European styling is key to this working. If it suceeds in Europe then it will be a winner everywhere. A US only Lincoln can not survive, Lexus, Merc, BMW have international sales so must Lincoln! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 (edited) Are Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti major luxury brands in Europe? Those are Japanese brands and they do FAR better stateside than even the European brands. Lincoln is aiming at those luxury hallmarks and part of the equation does not involve dominating the European market. One of the benefits of the car market in the US is that you have a FAR larger variety of vehicle styles available. If you want European, Japanese, American, or Australian engineering, you can find it on the market here. I don't know any other market that can put a Hummer and Smart on the same street. Edited March 9, 2007 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Lincoln was never accepted by the rest of the world before, and yet it was the best-selling luxury brand in America in 1998. Selling Lincoln in Europe is completely pointless, since the market is too small, and people prefer domestic makes over there. European and American tastes in luxury cars couldn't be more different. Cadillac tried that approach, and that brand is faltering today, aside from the CTS and Escalade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 If it suceeds in Europe then it will be a winner everywhere. I would run out of fingers and toes if I named all the EU brands that failed out of the U.S. market (even if some have staged a comeback). If you can make it HERE...................................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 I would run out of fingers and toes if I named all the EU brands that failed out of the U.S. market (even if some have staged a comeback). If you can make it HERE...................................... Start naming them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Peugeot Fiat Rover ...Thats a start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim kakouris Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 renault, mg, triumph.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 renault, mg, triumph.... Alfa, Citreon ( spelling? ) initially Maserati, Bricklin?oh.....Merkur..... man now I feel really old... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goingincirclez Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 (edited) Sterling... and wasn't Opel sold as such here in the 70's, briefly? Which were the last two to leave? Sterling and Peugeout (sp)? EDIT oh yeah - my avatar. But then that wasn't really a car... was it? Edited March 9, 2007 by goingincirclez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 I loved the Citroen 2cv's, surprized they haven't done a retro on that model...wonder if they will ever make it back here, apparently alfa is ( a $100-200,000 flagship first????/) to be merchandised alongside Maserati... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Fiat Alfa Romeo Maserati Lancia Bertone - Peugeot Citroen Renault - Yugo - AC MG Triumph Morris Austin-Healy Mini Rover Sterling TVR Jensen - Bitter Opel Merkur All European built vehicles. All marketed under their own brand. All dead, or just recently undead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 That's 22, and that's just off the top (and middle) of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 FiatAlfa Romeo Maserati Lancia Bertone - Peugeot Citroen Renault - Yugo - AC MG Triumph Morris Austin-Healy Mini Rover Sterling TVR Jensen - Bitter Opel Merkur All European built vehicles. All marketed under their own brand. All dead, or just recently undead. sheesh Rich...did we google "failure"..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingBender Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Jeremy Clarkson is in love with the sound of his own voice. His views on cars tend to be polarized. Everything is either brilliant, or it is crap. The differences between the Cadillac and Mercedes coupes are probably not nearly as extreme as he makes them out to be. Remember, he is an entertainer first, and an automotive authority second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 sheesh Rich...did we google "failure"..... Nope. I'm an expert on the subject :P Why do you think I'm here? :P :P Actually the only one I had to google was Bitter. Couldn't remember where the blasted things were built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Hillman (probably the biggest one you left out Rich) Austin (not Austin Healy - I'm referring to the "Austin America") Lloyd (Yes, I've actually seen one) Borgward (ditto) Facel Vega (ditto) Humber (ditto - but it may have come down from Canada - it was the car that inspired me to buy my old Toyopet Tiara) NSU (I remember a dealer for those nearby a few years - ok, a few decades - ago - they have the patent on the Wankel rotary motor) Thank you. Thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Didn't NSU turn into Audi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 link NSU had been established. It merged with Auto Union GmbH in 1969. Interesting history in this link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 More dead ends from Europe. Check out this page in Russian. I've seen some wild sheet before, but never so much, and never on one page! (It's pretty damn cool.) Darwin's playground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goingincirclez Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 (edited) More dead ends from Europe. Check out this page in Russian. I've seen some wild sheet before, but never so much, and never on one page! (It's pretty damn cool.) Darwin's playground Wow! There are some true.... sights to behold there! I love all those "V-twin front-fork" tricycles. And those little clown car-pod-shoebox-uh, things.... like this one, straight from Mulberry Street: But in all seriousness, there was one car that looked strangely familiar... Where have I seen that before? :shades: Edited March 9, 2007 by goingincirclez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 There used to be a pretty sizable tax/registration discount for 3 wheeled vehicles in a lot of EEC countries. Watch Roman Holiday and you'll see a lot of delivery vehicles with motor cycle front ends. (I can admit I've seen Roman Holiday here, right? It does have Gregory Peck in it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Damn man, roman holiday... I haven't seen that one since my mom tried to "culture" me back in middle school. But, seriously, of the list that Rich named (and someone else added to) all but about a handful of those also failed in their home markets and either were bought out or collapsed completely. Leveling indictments of the idea of US brands in europe based on those failures is a weak premise to a somewhat unrelated argument. Taking that into account, the modern lincoln lineup would likely have a far better chance of success in Europe than their lineups in the past. They're smaller overall (save for the full size truck and SUV, and the TC of course), get better gas mileage, handle better, and have a higher build quality than ever before. The MkZ could even be, dare I say it, competitive, as a rover. The MkS might also be marketable there if properly executed. I wouldn't even bother shipping over a demo of the Mark LT or the TC. The Navigator might be an interesting low volume mover, but couldn't be sold on a Land rover lot as it would compete directly with the Range Rover. I don't think that the MkX has the proper dynamics for Europe and there would be too many crossovers there that are better. The reason that the Navigator might sell is its uniqueness. The only TRUE european competitiors would be the Mercedes G-wagon, maybe the Range Rover, and possibly one or two products from the eastern block area specialty truck makers. But, I just don't think its worth doing at the moment. Ford has several brands in Europe already, and 3/4s of them are rather successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 (edited) Wow! There are some true.... sights to behold there! I love all those "V-twin front-fork" tricycles. And those little clown car-pod-shoebox-uh, things.... like this one, straight from Mulberry Street: When I was little there was a young woman (daughter of Dr. Von Stube, who lived in the white-columned mansion) who ran a business as "Penny the Party Clown". She drove - I think it was a BMW Isetta - a 3 wheeler (or the 2 rear wheels were very narrow set) on which the whole front would hinge open - very similar to your picture. You would see here driving in it - in her clown costume - on the way to some birthday party or other. But in all seriousness, there was one car that looked strangely familiar... Where have I seen that before? :shades: :hysterical: I didn't even notice that until you mentioned it. And I drive one!!! By the way, there was a 1922 Lincoln on that page. Edited March 9, 2007 by retro-man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 Europe has too much ego. Lincoln is sold here, it just needs more promotion and it could go head-to-head with Lexus's shitty cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 I'm not an American, I don't get Lincoln and as a European I kind of think it's a brand that is going through a long drawn out death as things stand. That said I think a little bit of a European perspective on Lincoln could save the company, which is something I would love to see. So bear with me. Over here in the UK the media is very hostile to any US car that claims to be luxurious. We have a motoring program here called Top Gear. The main presenter of this show is called Jeremy Clarkson. He recently made a TV program on DVD called the Good, the bad and the Ugly and in it he managed to express why Europeans won't buy into the concept of a premium American car. He argued that Americans can't make a car that goes round corners. He compared a top of the range Cadilac sportscar to a Mercedes SLK and then proceeded to rip apart the American car on quality, interior design, handeling, etc. He argued that the US car industry cannot make a 4x4 to compete with anything from Land Rover, BMW or Volvo. To be blunt he ripped the American PREMIUM car industry to shreds. Now Clarkson does go over the top, but he managed to get across on the DVD all the negative feelings Europeans have for American premium motors. So what does this mean for the likes of Lincoln? Well it means that Europeans won't risk their hard earned cash on a brand of car that could depreciate very heavily and on a brand which people simply don't see as a Ford of Europe beater never mind a BMW destroyer. So that means Lincoln can only try to sell it's cars in the US and Asia. But I have a solution to the problem of how to fix Lincoln and increase it's sales. Basically it's simple, replace the Jaguar X type with a Lincoln model. But call it a Rover! Rover is European and therefore stands a much better chance of persuading Europeans that it can do everything a European car can do. Let Land Rover's Gerry Mcgovern style the cars because he worked for Lincoln before and because he can make the cars acceptable to European and American drivers. Let Jag set up the handeling and get Lincoln to make it in the USA. Lincoln must stand on it's own two feet as a business, just like Jaguar must. But it must get it's cars into Europe. The Rover brand and European styling is key to this working. If it suceeds in Europe then it will be a winner everywhere. A US only Lincoln can not survive, Lexus, Merc, BMW have international sales so must Lincoln! You are wasting your time, North American Ford consumers have no interest in having better Ford vehicles. They seem to prefer mediocre for some unknown reason, and get quite feisty when anyone makes mention of having better Fords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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