A US only Lincoln is a dead Lincoln!

[KinneticBrian]

I agree with Lincoln Fan that a vastly improved Lincoln can shame Lexus and that badge-engineered crap that Toytoa is troweling out. I believe that Lexus will go down eventually not as a builder of legendary cars, but as a "what were we thinking buying this crap" brand. I've driven several of them and cannot find one reason to own one.

 

Where I disagree with the initiator of this thread is that Lincoln needs to be aimed at the European Buyer or built to appease some Jay Leno wannabe in the European Media. Why does this buffoon have to trash a Cadillac XLR? Can't the mighty mighty Benz stand head and shoulders above on it's own merits? The fact is, American cars will never be accepted by the arrogant European Media because they're jealous and insanely so over the fact that our "Big 3" have built and continue to build cars for American Consumers, and that the American buying public could care less what the Europeans think.

 

That being said, I have long advocated for Lincoln to revive the Continental in the true spirit that Edsel Ford conceived it, and aim styling and handling wise at two cars with a very European flavor. The Continental Sedan should benchmark the CLS Mercedes and be a low slung, aggressive car with extreme refinement. The Continental Mark IX should benchmark in style and performance the BMW 6-series coupe and roadster and offer both. Not only would this give the Euromedia something new to grumble about, it'd excite a lot of new American buyers into Lincoln showrooms and perhaps generate more interest abroad.

 

Just my thoughts - by the way - Impressive list Richard! You should go on Jeopardy!!

[peterstern]

Don't forget:

SIMCA... think "Plymouth Horizon/Dodge Omni"

Innocetti

Lada

Skoda

The Rootes group (Humber, Hillman, Singer, Sunbeam)

Matra

 

Mini wasn't an original brand. It was originally made by BMC under the brands Austin and Morris. BMC also included MG, Riley, Wolseley. Later merged with Jaguar cars and later still merged with Leyland (Leyland was mainly a truck and bus maker who bought Triumph, Rover and Bristol in the 1960s). The result of that merger was the infamous British-Leyland group... probably one of the worst companies of all time in so many ways. Lousy products, lousy labour relations, big losses and the icing on the cake was the government "help". Alls the disadvantages of being big with none of the advantages.

 

I question how some journalists rate cars. They get caught up with this trim piece or that... and because this material feels nicer or handles marginally better, you should spend the extra $4000 that this model costs. They get bogged down in the fluff. Oh, and don't worry about maintenance and servicing... it's covered under the warranty... ignoring the fact that the warranty doesn't last forever.... and what happens after the warranty ends.

 

A few years ago, I had a laugh when a journalist in the Toronto area (a pro-VW guy) bought his daughter an automatic VW Golf from the 1980s. Everything was fine until the starter had to be replaced... he got royally hosed on the price of the part and again with the amount of labour involved in the replacement. Suddenly "crappy" Fords like my Escort don't look so bad.

 

And I've known people who have had Audis, BMW's and Mercedes cars... good cars for people with more money than common sense.

 

My Ford Escort is just fine. The engine is coarse, the interior is nice enough and it's very practicle. But my car only has 88HP... so it has to be "crap"... right? But that 88HP recently took me up to 110MPH... how much more power do I need? 0-60 in only 12 seconds... so what? I see people with cars with 2 to 3 times the power of mine but they still can't get their damn cars up to speed when merging on the highway... yet I have no problem in getting my "crappy" Escort up to speed.

 

European cars are THE WORST for reliability, durability and maintenance costs.

 

 

 

 

Fiat

Alfa Romeo

Maserati

Lancia

Bertone

-

Peugeot

Citroen

Renault

-

Yugo

-

AC

MG

Triumph

Morris

Austin-Healy

Mini

Rover

Sterling

TVR

Jensen

-

Bitter

Opel

Merkur

 

All European built vehicles.

 

All marketed under their own brand.

 

All dead, or just recently undead.

[ZanatWork]

You are wasting your time, North American Ford consumers have no interest in having better Ford vehicles. They seem to prefer mediocre for some unknown reason, and get quite feisty when anyone makes mention of having better Fords.

 

We may have this weeks "WTF?" post!

 

So, let me get this straight...

 

...Ford's share is dropping, but the problem is that the vehicles are surpassing the desired medioctrity?

 

And, especially on this site, where so many people ask for C1 Focii and other improvements to the line, we get "feisty" when longing for them?

 

 

I don't know if English is your cup o' tea....

[Mustang_Marty]

Don't forget:

SIMCA... think "Plymouth Horizon/Dodge Omni"

Innocetti

Lada

Skoda

The Rootes group (Humber, Hillman, Singer, Sunbeam)

Matra

 

 

I was going to say Simca. My parents first car after they were married was a used 1964 Simca. There is a picture of me sitting on the hood when I was 6 mos old. To hear my dad tell it, it was a pile. They had it less than a year.

[TStag]

I agree a lot of European brands didn't make it in the USA and most of them in the list are now dead! That is the lesson for Lincoln. The one's that survived are all largely speaking volume car makers! Lincoln is meant to be a premium car maker and so being a US only brand means that there could be trouble down the line. It's a miracle that Alfa Romeo survived the dark days of the 1980's but even they are gearing up for another assault on the American market.

 

And yes frankly we Europeans can learn lessons from the Japanese, Lexus is after all a sucessfull international brand, even if sales are lower in Europe.

 

Let's be brutally honest here, is it likely that with all the foreign cars coming into America that Lincoln will see it's sales grow? No. Are they likely to shrink as the competion intensifies? yes. Go to France and look how many imported cars have now replaced Peugeots, go to Italy and the UK and you see the same thing over and over again. Peugeot survives purely because it grew it's exports. Renault survive's because of growing exports and a big stake in Nissan and Dacia. Fiat survives because of 50% sales growth in places like the UK.

 

The foreign car invasion is continuing! Lincolns sales will inevitably fall. Still don't believe me? The next company to land on US shores will be MG. The Chinese now own that one and are planning to open a new factory in Oklahoma. They are starting small but have big ambitions. Austin dead in the USA? Guess what the Chinese plan to relaucnh that too, not just in the US but every where in Europe and Asia.

 

Lincoln must export or die. It should use the more credible Rover brand in Europe to grow rapidly. It can be done and must be done.

[RichardJensen]

Lincoln is nothing more than a marketing arm of Ford Motor in the U.S.

 

You act as though it has its own production facilities, etc.

 

It does not. It is, and has been for about the last 30 years, nothing more than well equipped Fords with different sheetmetal. The idea that Ford needs to sell executive cars in Europe under the Rover brand name (when Rover was not an executive car), as a way of propping up Lincoln is.... not necessary.

 

Lincoln is a profitable unit. The cost of engineering the differences, and accommodating those differences on the assembly line is not so great that Lincoln needs a large amount of volume to turn a profit.

[donzuchowski]

I'm not an American, I don't get Lincoln and as a European I kind of think it's a brand that is going through a long drawn out death as things stand.

 

That said I think a little bit of a European perspective on Lincoln could save the company, which is something I would love to see. So bear with me. Over here in the UK the media is very hostile to any US car that claims to be luxurious. We have a motoring program here called Top Gear. The main presenter of this show is called Jeremy Clarkson. He recently made a TV program on DVD called the Good, the bad and the Ugly and in it he managed to express why Europeans won't buy into the concept of a premium American car. He argued that Americans can't make a car that goes round corners. He compared a top of the range Cadilac sportscar to a Mercedes SLK and then proceeded to rip apart the American car on quality, interior design, handeling, etc. He argued that the US car industry cannot make a 4x4 to compete with anything from Land Rover, BMW or Volvo. To be blunt he ripped the American PREMIUM car industry to shreds.

 

Now Clarkson does go over the top, but he managed to get across on the DVD all the negative feelings Europeans have for American premium motors. So what does this mean for the likes of Lincoln? Well it means that Europeans won't risk their hard earned cash on a brand of car that could depreciate very heavily and on a brand which people simply don't see as a Ford of Europe beater never mind a BMW destroyer. So that means Lincoln can only try to sell it's cars in the US and Asia.

 

But I have a solution to the problem of how to fix Lincoln and increase it's sales. Basically it's simple, replace the Jaguar X type with a Lincoln model. But call it a Rover! Rover is European and therefore stands a much better chance of persuading Europeans that it can do everything a European car can do. Let Land Rover's Gerry Mcgovern style the cars because he worked for Lincoln before and because he can make the cars acceptable to European and American drivers. Let Jag set up the handeling and get Lincoln to make it in the USA.

 

Lincoln must stand on it's own two feet as a business, just like Jaguar must. But it must get it's cars into Europe. The Rover brand and European styling is key to this working. If it suceeds in Europe then it will be a winner everywhere. A US only Lincoln can not survive, Lexus, Merc, BMW have international sales so must Lincoln!

 

Last time i checked Ford owns Volvo and Land Rover, and Land Rover uses Ford Parts as do Volvo.... So how can this gay say Americans cant build cars like LAnd Rover and Volvo when Ford an American company owns them.... This guy must not know who owns what is is just trying to decieve people. Lincoln is what a luxuary car should be...

[donzuchowski]

Because Volvo does not use Ford engineers.

.......but it's not.

 

VOLVO AND LAND ROVER DO USE FORD ENGINEERS SINCE THEY BOTH SHARE PLATFORMS, WITH FORD CARS AND TRUCKS AND MAZDA AS WELL....

[CarShark]

I question how some journalists rate cars. They get caught up with this trim piece or that... and because this material feels nicer or handles marginally better, you should spend the extra $4000 that this model costs. They get bogged down in the fluff. Oh, and don't worry about maintenance and servicing... it's covered under the warranty... ignoring the fact that the warranty doesn't last forever.... and what happens after the warranty ends.

I feel compelled to question the way YOU are rating cars. From what you say (obviously exaggerated somewhat), it seems that you don't see the point on spending more on the interior. Regardless of what you say, a good interior and gadgets aren't fluff. They are what people expect from luxury cars now. To put the focus solely on reliability misses the point completely.

 

A few years ago, I had a laugh when a journalist in the Toronto area (a pro-VW guy) bought his daughter an automatic VW Golf from the 1980s. Everything was fine until the starter had to be replaced... he got royally hosed on the price of the part and again with the amount of labour involved in the replacement. Suddenly "crappy" Fords like my Escort don't look so bad.

I'm wondering why he went back so far for a Golf. Certainly they must have made good ones in the 90s, before they lost the plot reliability-wise.

 

And I've known people who have had Audis, BMW's and Mercedes cars... good cars for people with more money than common sense.

That's a very unfair conclusion. BMWs handle better and Mercs and Audis are more luxurious. To say that bad reliability makes them wholly uncompetitive is just plain wrong. The sales numbers tell the tale there.

 

My Ford Escort is just fine.

Ford's been making "just fine" cars for too long. That kind of "aw, shucks", good-enough, simple attitude is part of the reason Ford's in so much trouble in the first place.

 

The engine is coarse, the interior is nice enough and it's very practical. But my car only has 88HP... so it has to be "crap"... right? But that 88HP recently took me up to 110MPH... how much more power do I need? 0-60 in only 12 seconds... so what? I see people with cars with 2 to 3 times the power of mine but they still can't get their damn cars up to speed when merging on the highway... yet I have no problem in getting my "crappy" Escort up to speed.

Not everyone is like you. You seem to be categorizing a person who wants a better interior as a "dashboard humper" and a person who doesn't like Ford as elitist. You're doing the same thing...in reverse!

 

European cars are THE WORST for reliability, durability and maintenance costs.

Yet many of them are doing well in America. Buick does very well in JD Power surveys, and it gets them exactly...nowhere. It's not the biggest or most important point, even/especially when it comes to luxury cars.

[J-150]

Lincoln was never accepted by the rest of the world before, and yet it was the best-selling luxury brand in America in 1998.

 

Selling Lincoln in Europe is completely pointless, since the market is too small, and people prefer domestic makes over there.

 

European and American tastes in luxury cars couldn't be more different. Cadillac tried that approach, and that brand is faltering today, aside from the CTS and Escalade.

 

 

 

best selling in 1998?

 

Wow. That was a lot of Ford trucks with a cross hair on the grill. 'cause that what was driving that volume.

 

 

And 10 years later what do we have... nuthin'

 

 

The brand has become meaningless.

 

 

 

Lincoln has become the new Edsel division. Really. 'cause isn't that what killed Edsel? They were rebadged Fords without enough differentiation and the public didn't buy into it. Kinda like Lincoln.

[silvrsvt]

best selling in 1998?

 

Wow. That was a lot of Ford trucks with a cross hair on the grill. 'cause that what was driving that volume.

And 10 years later what do we have... nuthin'

The brand has become meaningless.

Lincoln has become the new Edsel division. Really. 'cause isn't that what killed Edsel? They were rebadged Fords without enough differentiation and the public didn't buy into it. Kinda like Lincoln.

 

 

There was only the Navigator in 1998...You had the Town Car and Continental otherwise.

 

For the most part, Lincoln has been nothing but rebadged Fords for the past 25 years or so...why does everyone still bring this up? When is the last time Lincoln, save the LS had its own platform?

[CarShark]

There was only the Navigator in 1998...You had the Town Car and Continental otherwise.

 

For the most part, Lincoln has been nothing but rebadged Fords for the past 25 years or so...why does everyone still bring this up? When is the last time Lincoln, save the LS had its own platform?

Everyone keeps bringing it up because we don't know if people are seeing Lincolns as "rebadged Fords" and turning their noses up at them. Lexus isn't just rebadged Toyotas, and the same goes for Honda and all the Euros.

[J-150]

There was only the Navigator in 1998...You had the Town Car and Continental otherwise.

 

For the most part, Lincoln has been nothing but rebadged Fords for the past 25 years or so...why does everyone still bring this up? When is the last time Lincoln, save the LS had its own platform?

 

 

25 years ago... Lincolns at least looked like Lincolns. They didn't look like Fords. A TC looked nothing like a CV or GM. 99% of the public had no idea a Conti was a Taurus. Or a Mark was a T-Bird.

 

 

But now we have the F150, Expedition and Fusion being sold with a different grill and taillights and somehow are supposed to be different models altogether? Its like Lincoln isn't even trying anymore to be a different car. The LS and Conti are dead and no one (except airport limo drivers) aspire to own a TC anymore.

 

Which leaves Lincolns models as Fords with new taillights and it isn't fooling anyone.

Edited March 14, 2007 by J-150

[KinneticBrian]

The point that Lincolns are nothing really special anymore seems to be the issue. As to the brand being meaningless, I'd take strong issue with that. Misguided and mismanaged yes, but meaningless no. Ford has to have a prestige American brand to remain competitive in the market. Volvo isn't going to cut it and neither is Jaguar in spite of both brands having fine cars. Basing a Lincoln on a Ford chassis isn't the problem here - lack of originality and refinement is. Lincoln isn't the only American car brand adrift in the fog. Buick is foundering over at General Motors with Pontiac in tow right behind it.

 

Our Big Three need to wake up. The days of slapping plastic wood, cheap leather and oversize badging on a cheap car and getting away with it are over.

[birdy1s]

Maybe this is a start

http://www.ford.com.cn/servlet/ContentServ...d=1163395880345

http://media.ford.com/print_doc.cfm?article_id=20954

 

Never say never

[clairrmws_71]

Lincoln was never accepted by the rest of the world before, and yet it was the best-selling luxury brand in America in 1998.

 

Selling Lincoln in Europe is completely pointless, since the market is too small, and people prefer domestic makes over there.

 

European and American tastes in luxury cars couldn't be more different. Cadillac tried that approach, and that brand is faltering today, aside from the CTS and Escalade.

I have personal history to share about Lincoln, Merkur, etc. In the early 70's, I was looking for a sporty fast car to replace my highly modified Ford Pinto. After seeing the ads , I went to the local Ford dealer and tried to order a Capri. I was told that the Capri could only be purchased from a LINCOLN-MERCURY dealer. Neither a Ford dealer nor a Mercury could sell me such a car. I finally special ordered a Nova SS with all the goodies as I lived in a small town in Montana and no speed limit existed at the time. In 1990, I decided that I liked the look of a Merkur XR4 ti. I found that this car could only be purchased from a MERKUR dealer. I purchased a Taurus SHO because Merkur cars would no longer be imported. I don't think that the Lincoln division really understands today's marketplace. What happened to the Lincoln LS? Is the Lincoln Zephyr a rebadged Milan/Fusion? I could go on and on . My advice is to consider all the competition and run like hell away from a Lincoln.

[wescoent]

I have personal history to share about Lincoln, Merkur, etc. In the early 70's, I was looking for a sporty fast car to replace my highly modified Ford Pinto. After seeing the ads , I went to the local Ford dealer and tried to order a Capri. I was told that the Capri could only be purchased from a LINCOLN-MERCURY dealer. Neither a Ford dealer nor a Mercury could sell me such a car. I finally special ordered a Nova SS with all the goodies as I lived in a small town in Montana and no speed limit existed at the time. In 1990, I decided that I liked the look of a Merkur XR4 ti. I found that this car could only be purchased from a MERKUR dealer. I purchased a Taurus SHO because Merkur cars would no longer be imported. I don't think that the Lincoln division really understands today's marketplace. What happened to the Lincoln LS? Is the Lincoln Zephyr a rebadged Milan/Fusion? I could go on and on . My advice is to consider all the competition and run like hell away from a Lincoln.

 

Ford understands that people looking for performance will go to a Ford dealer. We will see performance at Lincoln in the near future.

[SysEng]

... he managed to express why Europeans won't buy into the concept of a premium American car. He argued that Americans can't make a car that goes round corners. He compared a top of the range Cadilac sportscar to a Mercedes SLK and then proceeded to rip apart the American car on quality, interior design, handeling, etc. He argued that the US car industry cannot make a 4x4 to compete with anything from Land Rover, BMW or Volvo. To be blunt he ripped the American PREMIUM car industry to shreds.

 

First off, the TC goes around corners just fine... and finds its way to corporate HQs ( including in the EU ) 24 Downing or the Vatican just fine. One typically doesn't race to these addresses and sure as hell don't spend too much time in EU slums either.

 

As for 4X4... believe it or not in America, we still use 4X4 for its original purpose... OFF the F(n)! Road! Streets in EU capitals are that bad ( or none existant ? ) that you need 4X4 on the road... ( other than say in a blizzard )? A 4X4 Expedition still beats that EU stuff even if it isn't up to American standards for toughness.

 

Trust me, the TC is Lincoln. Attempts to euro-fy it are Lincolns downfall... which actual Lincoln customers are more than willing to point out loudly and often. Where we do agree, is that the TC styling is really doubtful. But thats a defect of recent years. Previous models were quite nice... even elegant and artistic.

 

Lincolns problem is no different from Fords problem. A distinct lack of ability to do anything to existing products over an extended period. A well done 1995 car isn't going to cut it in 2008.

[ZanatWork]

Actually, I think Lincoln's problem is a complete lack of any distictive product whatsoever. What worked for them before will not work now.

 

Before the Haterade starts flowing, let's review:

 

Navigator- An Expy with a scary grille and a nicer interior. Ironically, the Expy kick ass in comparos while the Nav gets trounced.

 

Mark LT- A way-too-obvious bechromed F-150.

 

MKZ- A rebodied Fusion with the motor the other CD3s need...just ask 90% of the posters here! Needs to go to handling school.

 

MKX- Loaded Edges are being touted as a far better deal. Truth is, they are.

 

Town Car- This Panther-derived barge is the Joan Rivers of the auto world.

 

Even the upcoming MKS is known years ahead of time to be a juiced-up Five Hundred. Granted, the roofline is different and the "Twinforce" motor hopefully will give it an individual identity.

[wescoent]

Actually, I think Lincoln's problem is a complete lack of any distictive product whatsoever. What worked for them before will not work now.

 

Before the Haterade starts flowing, let's review:

 

Navigator- An Expy with a scary grille and a nicer interior. Ironically, the Expy kick ass in comparos while the Nav gets trounced.

 

Mark LT- A way-too-obvious bechromed F-150.

 

MKZ- A rebodied Fusion with the motor the other CD3s need...just ask 90% of the posters here! Needs to go to handling school.

 

MKX- Loaded Edges are being touted as a far better deal. Truth is, they are.

 

Town Car- This Panther-derived barge is the Joan Rivers of the auto world.

 

Even the upcoming MKS is known years ahead of time to be a juiced-up Five Hundred. Granted, the roofline is different and the "Twinforce" motor hopefully will give it an individual identity.

 

I have no problem with the Navigator and Mark LT being retrimmed from the Expedition and F-150. My main complaint is that the Mark LT should have much more in common with the Navigator than it does with the F-150. All they need is an exclusive motor.

 

The MKZ and MKX can certainly share architectures with the Fusion and Edge, but they need a bit more distinctive sheetmetal, which they will soon get, along with a Lincoln-exclusive 3.7L V6.

 

The MKS will be the first Lincoln to really embody what the brand should be in terms of vehicle engineering. Sharing basic bits with a Ford, but everything visual and powertrain is exclusive.

[LincolnFan]

FWD vehicles can't embody Lincoln, Lincoln started going downhill when they made the Conti-rus.

 

The MKR is what embodies Lincoln, Fullsize sedans won't be back in Fashion, however Four-door coupes are the fashion right now, I wonder if a convertiable version is possible.