A question for those that want MSOF

[DearbornDerek]

A question for those of you that like MSOF (manual shift on the fly) 4X4. Is it something you MUST have and would you be willing to pay extra for it? This was a question posed to me by an engineer who wants to have a better understanding of the Ford truck enthusiast than what they get in thier "focus" groups. The reason he asks is because believe it or not it costs more to build a unit with MSOF than it does with ESOF (electronic shift on the fly).

[bravestar]

A question for those of you that like MSOF (manual shift on the fly) 4X4. Is it something you MUST have and would you be willing to pay extra for it? This was a question posed to me by an engineer who wants to have a better understanding of the Ford truck enthusiast than what they get in thier "focus" groups. The reason he asks is because believe it or not it costs more to build a unit with MSOF than it does with ESOF (electronic shift on the fly).

 

Old timey option that is no longer needed. What I would really like in a four wheel drive F-150 is the option of automatic 4x4 like on the Expedition. This is nice in winter driving or slippery conditions.

Edited April 3, 2007 by bravestar

[cheri/ck]

I suspect that most people that prefer the manual shift do so because it is the only way to get a "neutral" option on the transfer case. For those that may need to be flat-towed, that can make a difference in that the neutral setting gets most of the friction out of the driveline for towing. Some of the expensive SUV's are going back to a manual shift - the latest Landcruiser has it and the off-road folks like that neutral setting.

 

Otherwise, we have had both the manual and electronic shifts on recent F-150 products. Usually the cheaper truck gets the manual shift - the nicer ones get the electronic shift. The manual shift is often stiff when new, not always going where you want it to go easily. And, low range can be difficult too when new.

 

The electronic shift has never been a problem for us, it is plenty fast enough for any 4WD situation and I prefer it. I wonder if some folks think the manual shift is actually manually shifting the transfer case as in older 4WD trucks. It is my understanding that these transfer cases are electrically actuated whether it is by the simple dash selector or the harder to use shift on the floor.

[NLPRacing]

I don't care if it's manual, electric or pneumatic, I would just like to have a true "neutral" setting so it can be flat towed. I also think a an "AWD" setting would be nice.

 

I wish my truck had the the following settings: 2H N AWD 4H 4L

[cheri/ck]

I agree that a true AWD option would be very nice to have on a truck. There are so many situations in the winter when you just don't know for sure - is there enough slippage in between the ice patches to not start binding a part-time set-up if it is left engaged. I don't keep up with GM products very well, but an AWD option on the transfer case has been offered in the past and probably still is. Otherwise, not sure I much care for the electronic slippage control as introduced on the Titan and now on the Tundra.

 

Seems to me like the Eaton rear differential that offers a good limited slip all the time and option for a locked differential in bad situations is much better. Once again, I think that is an option on GM trucks. We always get our 4WD trucks with limited slip and contrary to what a lot of people say, the Ford rears have always worked well for many, many miles. They are also properly maintained. We live on a steep, loose rock hill and if we didn't have limited-slip, an unloaded pick-up could not make it up the hill without 4WD.

 

Anyway, I agree. The dash switch should offer a neutral setting. And, an AWD option would be a great reason for many of us to upgrade to a new truck.

[F250]

A question for those of you that like MSOF (manual shift on the fly) 4X4. Is it something you MUST have and would you be willing to pay extra for it?

I have always had and prefer manual shift 4WD including my '06 F150. Actually this is the first truck that doesn't also have manual locking front hubs. I have definately seen electric shift systems fail to engage or disengage off road on other people's trucks. The manual shifter is quick and easy to engage (as easy as shifting any manual transmission) and I don't see the advantage to all of the extra complexity and loss of netural of the electric systems. How much extra money are you talking about if it becomes an extra cost option?

 

I wonder if some folks think the manual shift is actually manually shifting the transfer case as in older 4WD trucks. It is my understanding that these transfer cases are electrically actuated whether it is by the simple dash selector or the harder to use shift on the floor.

 

Your information is incorrect. The shifter controls the transfer case with a direct linkage on the F-150.

[valen]

I had an 05 dodge with full time AWD and it kept chewing up the front gears every 5k miles...... I ended up lemon lawing it. Dodge only offered that on the 05 model year and dropped it for 06....... you don't want it.

 

You should tell your engineer friend to redesign the way the lockouts work, go with a design that has a driven engagement rather than vacume operated....... there's been a few times where my 06 f-150 made grinding noises engageing in heavy snow (due to wheel slip). I think most people like flipping a switch instead of yanking a big lever.... use the room for something else.

[cheri/ck]

I have always had and prefer manual shift 4WD including my '06 F150. Actually this is the first truck that doesn't also have manual locking front hubs. I have definately seen electric shift systems fail to engage or disengage off road on other people's trucks. The manual shifter is quick and easy to engage (as easy as shifting any manual transmission) and I don't see the advantage to all of the extra complexity and loss of netural of the electric systems. How much extra money are you talking about if it becomes an extra cost option?

Your information is incorrect. The shifter controls the transfer case with a direct linkage on the F-150.

 

 

Nope - as I understand it you basically have a lever on top of the transfer case with manual shift transfer cases that does manually engage the transfer case. And sometimes, this is not a seamless process getting into low range 4WD. With electronic shift on the fly, there is a "shift motor" that does the shifting for you. Should this motor fail, there are ways to access the shift lever from below the vehicle to manually engage 4WD.

 

The hubs are the big thing here and there is no amount of manually shifting these transfer cases that will get you back to the old days of lock-out hubs and instant 4WD. Up until 2003, the 4X4 hubs were vacuum assisted until 2004 and now the hubs are part of the GEM system with the current model. Either way, the manual shift on the transfer case will not get you 4WD unless the hubs actuate which will either depend on proper vacuum or a proper electric supply to the GEM module.

 

Didn't realize it mattered to most to go into so much detail. The bottom line in this discussion is that with manual shifting you get a neutral option which matters to some people. With ESOF you don't get the neutral setting unless Ford decides to upgrade it. Seems to me like a good idea to upgrade the electronic shift on fly with a neutral setting assuming you can still access the shift lever on the transfer case in the event that it is needed.

 

It could standardize things a little more and maybe decrease costs.

[F250]

I wonder if some folks think the manual shift is actually manually shifting the transfer case as in older 4WD trucks. It is my understanding that these transfer cases are electrically actuated whether it is by the simple dash selector or the harder to use shift on the floor.

followed by:

 

 

Nope - as I understand it you basically have a lever on top of the transfer case with manual shift transfer cases that does manually engage the transfer case. And sometimes, this is not a seamless process getting into low range 4WD. With electronic shift on the fly, there is a "shift motor" that does the shifting for you. Should this motor fail, there are ways to access the shift lever from below the vehicle to manually engage 4WD.

 

If you look down you will see I actually own an '06 F-150 4x4 with MSOF would you like me to take a picture for you of the big steel shift linkage attached directly from the transfer case to the shift lever. Engaging 4WD on this truck is as quick and simple as shifting any manual transmission. The only electrical assist in the manual transfer case is an internal electromagnetic clutch which spins up the front output shaft to provide 4-high shift on the fly, if that electric clutch ever failed you would simply have to stop the truck to shift to 4-H but you would still be able to engage and disengage all transfer case ranges.

 

By contrast the ESOF electronic shift is quite complicated. When you activate the switch on the dash the the PCM (powertrain control module) receives the signal and it engages relays which energize the electric shift motor mounted on the transfer case. When the shift motor reaches the correct position (which is determined by the position of contact plates that sends the signal back to the PCM) the PCM cuts power to the relays which disengage the shift motor. Because this electric shift motor is rarely used and it is mounted exposed down on the transfer case it definately has a history of failure, so much so that replacements are even readily available from the aftermarket. Beyond the motor there are relay(s) the switch, wiring etc that can disable the system should they fail.

 

Should this motor fail, there are ways to access the shift lever from below the vehicle to manually engage 4WD.

Um..how did you say it? NOPE. What do you plan to do, jump out of the truck, crawl under, unbolt and remove the shift motor and grab the internal shaft with a pair of vicegrips to try to engage 4WD?

Edited April 21, 2007 by F250

[NLPRacing]

I had an 05 dodge with full time AWD and it kept chewing up the front gears every 5k miles...... I ended up lemon lawing it. Dodge only offered that on the 05 model year and dropped it for 06....... you don't want it.

 

You should tell your engineer friend to redesign the way the lockouts work, go with a design that has a driven engagement rather than vacuum operated....... there's been a few times where my 06 f-150 made grinding noises engaging in heavy snow (due to wheel slip). I think most people like flipping a switch instead of yanking a big lever.... use the room for something else.

 

My 98 Expedition had 2H, AWD, 4H, & 4L. We drove it in 2H for the most part, but when the streets were a little slick from rain or ice, the AWD setting worked very well and was not near as rough as the 4H setting. I wouldn't care for full time AWD, but an AWD setting that I could select in addition to 2H, 4H & 4L would be nice as well as a true "Neutral" setting.

[YT90SC]

Even with MSOF, you have electronic control of front end engagement since 1997 in the f-150.

 

The hublocks on the 04 and newer f-150s and 03 and newer Expeditions are held in a disengaged position by vaccuum till the PCM toggles the vac control solenoid, allowing vaccuum to dump,engaging the front hublocks. TO disengage, the vaccum is reapplied and the hubs unlock. The PCM watches for the 4x4 switch on the t-case to trigger the solenoid. The front ends on the 1997-2003 f150s and pre 2003 Expedition are still electronically controlled with MSOF too. There is a shift lever in the front end which is engaged and disengaged by a vaccuum actuator attached to the side of the axle. This actuator is controlled by 2 solenoids that are controlled by the GEM. This doesn't actually disengage the hubs like the newer trucks, just stops the front driveshaft from spinning. Just like late model the GEM looks for a signal from the switch on the side of the t-case. SO in both cases with the F-150 there is still an element of electronic control and in both cases you COULD have the t-case engaged and not have the front end locked in.

 

All other MSOF's are truly non electronically controlled. (all Stupid Duty and pre-97 f-150.)

 

ESOF's vary a lot. There is the older system which uses mechanical automatic hubs which engage when torqued in the direction of travel (absolute junk). There are PVH (Pulse Vaccuum Hublock) which are used on the 99 ranger and 99 and newer S-Duty. There are the Explorers and 2000 and newer rangers which use NO front end controls at all, just the t-case shifting. Escapes which use Electronic clutches in the rear end and on and on.

 

True AWD's like AWD Explorer and Mountaineer use viscous clutches in the non-selectable t-case. All other AWD, both full time and selectable (except back in the old days, 79 and such) use electronic clutches similar to an A/C cluch to engage 4x4 op, reguardless of front end control type.

 

Anyhow, any of the late model electronic controlled front end systems are superior to the older mechanically engaged automatics found on the 96 and older trucks. Also the late model 150s are probably best because, if there is a loss of vaccuum the hubs engage, and threre is only one solenoid to operate. The 97 to 03's had to have vaccuum to engage and vaccuum to disengage and both solenoids working correctly. (not to mention that the fork ahd to be intact in the front end)

[F250]

Yes I know but the original question was MSOF vs ESOF in regards to transfer case operation, wether to keep both systems that are currently in production or eliminate the manual shift and offer only the complicated ESOF.

 

He never asked about front hubs if he had I would have said bring back the manual hub option as well. The manuals are much more durable and reliable that's why conversion kits are offered by aftermarket companies for those who do use their trucks off road and have had problems with the auto systems.

 

Your post is a good example of how unreliable the auto hub systems are because Ford (and other manufacturers) have tried several different designs within a few years trying to find a reliable method of locking the front hubs when needed.

 

In the end it will come down to marketing, research shows only a small percentage of 4WD buyers actually use the system frequently so I expect the ESOF will be the only system offered on the next F-150.

[cheri/ck]

Have to comment on real-time everyday use of Ford 4WD trucks when sometimes there isn't a lot of choice. I have had to stop on the side of the freeway many times with manual hubs that were not previously locked to engage them because I was really afraid that I needed 4WD sooner than I thought getting through the pass to home. Most manufacturers - Ford included - don't really want you to run these hubs locked past 55 mph without manual engagement of 4hi. I've done it though and I can see why - grease gets too hot in the hubs, spits out and and you do tend to wonder if it is not time for another rather expensive re-pack of those hubs. I do agree though that those old manual hubs and manaul shift lever immediate engagement of 4WD is hard to beat, mostly when you get off pavement.

 

Yes - I live at 7,300 feet in New Mexico where we can get a lot of snow/mud, often at the worst times. And for me the shift-on-fly technology is just about the best thing that ever happened for our trucks. I have driven many, many miles of manual hub-locking 4WD vehicles and still have one of them - a 1996 4X4 Ranger that pushes a snow-plow. It is our only current manual hub locking, manual transfer shifting vehicle.

 

We have now had several of Ford's designs over the years with ESOF and the oldest is still our base family vehicle - a 1999 F-150 with about 91,000 troublefree miles on it now. It's just too good a vehicle to give up still and like I have said many times, Ford really doesn't push me into the new truck showroom with their current offerings. Guess we'll simply keep driving it until something better is offered and I don't include the current, over-weight and under-powered F-150 on that shopping list.

 

I understand that any loss of vacuum is a problem on these 4WD trucks up through 2003 or so. I also think I remember that my 2003 Ranger has constantly engaged hubs that use a disconnect from the transfer case that is generally similar to a Jeep set-up and maybe that is a good way to go. I can honestly say that the only problem we have had with a recent 4WD Ford truck was with a 2001 F-150 with manual shift transfer case and getting that one into low-range could be a disconcerting, grinding problem. The ESOF has never been a problem with low-range or a problem otherwise and it has been used quite often with these trucks.

 

I don't know the answer and sure understand why some of us prefer manual trannys as I really stay quite happy with my 2003 4.0 V-6 Ranger/5-speed tranny 4X4 little mountain goat Ranger. But, on the other hand, the ESOF is not that complicated to me- the transfer case itself is complicated with its instructions to the rest of of the front-end system. I would have to say that Ford's automatic hub systems have probably been the best in the industry so far though since the mid-90's.

 

I do understand those that want a neutral setting with ESOF and an AWD option. To me that would be an improvement on these trucks. I would have to add as I have done in the past that I sure do hope that Ford doesn't go the Toyota/Nissan route with electronic traction control replacing mechanical limited slip on the differentials. The rest of the electronics seem friendly enough to me on these latest Ford trucks, but I don't want a computer telling me how much slip I need to spin mud and snow off my tires.

 

There does need to be an end to computers controlling 4WD trucks if they intend to remain real trucks.

[JW]

Once upon a time, my preference was manual shift/manual hubs (back when the auto stuff was more problematic). But the electric shift in my Expy has been flawless, and the couple of times I needed it in a hurry, it was very handy to have.

[F250]

Once upon a time, my preference was manual shift/manual hubs (back when the auto stuff was more problematic). But the electric shift in my Expy has been flawless, and the couple of times I needed it in a hurry, it was very handy to have.

 

I'll have to admit it has been convient not having to get out to lock the hubs on this truck, just grab the shifter and go.

 

Like any other luxury I like the auto front hubs but IF they ever let me down when I need them ....

Edited April 28, 2007 by F250

[YT90SC]

Yes I know but the original question was MSOF vs ESOF in regards to transfer case operation, wether to keep both systems that are currently in production or eliminate the manual shift and offer only the complicated ESOF.

 

He never asked about front hubs if he had I would have said bring back the manual hub option as well. The manuals are much more durable and reliable that's why conversion kits are offered by aftermarket companies for those who do use their trucks off road and have had problems with the auto systems.

 

Your post is a good example of how unreliable the auto hub systems are because Ford (and other manufacturers) have tried several different designs within a few years trying to find a reliable method of locking the front hubs when needed.

 

In the end it will come down to marketing, research shows only a small percentage of 4WD buyers actually use the system frequently so I expect the ESOF will be the only system offered on the next F-150.

 

 

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but there seemed to be some real bad missinformation that needed set straight.