2007 Premium Midsize Sedan Sales

[NickF1011]

Nick- No argument- I agree. I'm not suggesting they spend "billions" . But what I and others have said- for a relatively small amount of money you could tweak this car and continue to generate sales that add to the bottom line. It is ludicrous that you would keep the GM and trash retail sales of the CV. I and many others prefer the look ofthe CV and on dealer presence alone it wins!

 

As to your comment on the RWD market, Ford should OWN all the niche numbers that DCX is picking up. We soon will have the new Pontiac G-8 on the scene as well as Hyundai etc. Again, we are not talking about 300,000 cars a year- but we are talking about some decent numbers out of a plant that has to be fully depreciated and has a rep for turning out good products.

 

Well Ford isn't going to "own" any of the markets that the LX cars and G8 are going to be filling with a mild touch-up on a 30-year-old platform. That's entirely my point. Band-aids on the Panthers aren't going to do ANYTHING to keep others from slowly eating away its market share. It would take the multi-billion dollar ground-up redesign to stave off the oncoming threats from other automakers. Ford just doesn't have the resources or the will to do that right now though.

[Deanh]

. Ford just doesn't have the resources or the will to do that right now though.nick....are you playin both sides of the fence right now???????????? I've been trying to get this into your brain on an alternate thread.....female hormones?

Edited May 11, 2007 by Deanh

[NickF1011]

. Ford just doesn't have the resources or the will to do that right now though.nick....are you playin both sides of the fence right now???????????? I've been trying to get this into your brain on an alternate thread.....female hormones?

 

There's a difference between putting a almost-no-cost option like a manual transmission in a car and needing to redesign a vehicle from the ground up to make it competitive. There's simply no comparison to be made in these two situations.

[Deanh]

There's a difference between putting a almost-no-cost option like a manual transmission in a car and needing to redesign a vehicle from the ground up to make it competitive. There's simply no comparison to be made in these two situations.

your'e killin me.....adding just a manual trans requires a $hitload more than just changing transmissions.....somone in the know please enlighten....I would say suspension, Computers, emmisions, gear ratios, interior mods, NVH......hell we couldn't get trucks with certain axle ratios here in So Cal due to smog issues.....not to mention complete LACK of return in comparison to investment..

Edited May 11, 2007 by Deanh

[NickF1011]

your'e killin me.....adding just a manual trans requires a $hitload more than just changing transmissions.....somone in the know please enlighten....I would say suspension, Computers, emmisions, gear ratios, interior mods, NVH......hell we couldn't get trucks with certain axle ratios here in So Cal due to smog issues.....not to mention complete LACK of return in comparison to investment..

 

Suspension would be identical. Computers? Hardly a difficult thing to reprogram. Gear ratios likely wouldn't need to change either. Interior mods?? Aren't you stretching it a bit here?? You design a leather boot instead of the el-cheapo plastic to go around the shifter. Again, Mazda had absolutely no problems doing any of these things on a vehicle that sells in far smaller quantities than the Fusion. Stop grasping at straws here. Ford is too cheap/too broke/too clueless to get things right. Whatever the excuse is, it's just that, an excuse.

 

As far as lack of return on investment....well....Ford will make zero return from me until they build something I actually like.

[Deanh]

Suspension would be identical. Computers? Hardly a difficult thing to reprogram. Gear ratios likely wouldn't need to change either. Interior mods?? Aren't you stretching it a bit here?? You design a leather boot instead of the el-cheapo plastic to go around the shifter. Again, Mazda had absolutely no problems doing any of these things on a vehicle that sells in far smaller quantities than the Fusion. Stop grasping at straws here. Ford is too cheap/too broke/too clueless to get things right. Whatever the excuse is, it's just that, an excuse.

 

As far as lack of return on investment....well....Ford will make zero return from me until they build something I actually like.

weight differentials of any significance mandate suspension re-calibration...can we say under or oversteer? Computers..yep piece of cake, fuel curses, lean rich at various RPM"S gear selections...shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to appease the smog people as well...interior cosmetics...absolute 10 minute hack job, all i need is a blowtorch to reform the plasic, an old leather jacket and a pair of scissors....we don't need to tool anything...No straws Nick and please I am not busting your balls....Mazda I am assuming did it from the get go...Ford may down the road ( I can only hope ) .and gear ratios in a manual ar EXCEEDINGLY important....what seems to you as an easy stopgap is not as easy as it seems.....and NO excuse at all...it would be a pointless exercise as of now...

[Deanh]

[

 

As far as lack of return on investment....well....Ford will make zero return from me until they build something I actually like.

YOUR"E money alone will put them under....live with THAT guilt...thx, i'm outa a job

[NickF1011]

[

 

As far as lack of return on investment....well....Ford will make zero return from me until they build something I actually like.

 

YOUR"E money alone will put them under....live with THAT guilt...thx, i'm outa a job

 

My money alone won't...but me times the millions of other car buyers who are bored with Ford's product offerings just might.

 

As for your spring comment...a few pounds of weight isn't going to require crap for suspension calibration. If that were the case, you'd have to take your car in for a suspension calibration each time a driver of a different weight wanted to go driving. I can't speak for all cars, but as far as Mustangs are concerned, the entire suspensions are identical regardless of transmission choice. Now engine choice is another story...you're talking more significant weight differences directly above the wheels.

 

Maybe Ford SHOULD get Rid of Mercury. I'm sure the money they spent on designing the oh-so-unique looks of the Milan could have saved them enough to put the 3.5 AND a manual into the Fusion no problem. But nope...

 

BORED MOVES, only at your Local Ford Dealer.

[Deanh]

My money alone won't...but me times the millions of other car buyers who are bored with Ford's product offerings just might.

 

As for your spring comment...a few pounds of weight isn't going to require crap for suspension calibration. If that were the case, you'd have to take your car in for a suspension calibration each time a driver of a different weight wanted to go driving. I can't speak for all cars, but as far as Mustangs are concerned, the entire suspensions are identical regardless of transmission choice. Now engine choice is another story...you're talking more significant weight differences directly above the wheels.

 

Maybe Ford SHOULD get Rid of Mercury. I'm sure the money they spent on designing the oh-so-unique looks of the Milan could have saved them enough to put the 3.5 AND a manual into the Fusion no problem. But nope...

 

BORED MOVES, only at your Local Ford Dealer.

I agree on the Mercury...Lincoln ONLY. however....MILLIONS OF DRIVERS............we are talking 6 speed manuals here aren't we Nick...get off the pipe...still working on the numbers???????????????? fore already has them...THAT is why your dream car isn't being produced yet...market research, not the world according to enthusiasts...

[NickF1011]

I agree on the Mercury...Lincoln ONLY. however....MILLIONS OF DRIVERS............we are talking 6 speed manuals here aren't we Nick...get off the pipe...still working on the numbers???????????????? fore already has them...THAT is why your dream car isn't being produced yet...market research, not the world according to enthusiasts...

 

Hardly a dream car. Just something that's not ridiculously boring to drive. Ford's number crunching sure has served them well so far this decade. Market share falling. Profits nonexistent. Record losses. Selling of brands. Mortgaging of all assets. Yep. Ford seems to be great at that number crunching thing.

 

And you're missing the point here. It's not JUST about not having a manual in the Fusion. It's the entire lineup missing any hint of gusto whatsoever. Nearly all of their vehicles are class-trailing in power. There's nothing in sight aside from ridiculously overpriced limited-run Mustangs that anyone can even get remotely excited about in the entire F-L-M portfolio. If we're forced to accept class-trailing power, you'd think they'd at least be doing something else class-leading. Best interiors? Nope. Latest available options? Naaaah. Best styling? We'll get back to you. Widest product range? Oh we'll have a B-car eventually....

[Deanh]

Hardly a dream car. Just something that's not ridiculously boring to drive. Ford's number crunching sure has served them well so far this decade. Market share falling. Profits nonexistent. Record losses. Selling of brands. Mortgaging of all assets. Yep. Ford seems to be great at that number crunching thing.

 

And you're missing the point here. It's not JUST about not having a manual in the Fusion. It's the entire lineup missing any hint of gusto whatsoever. Nearly all of their vehicles are class-trailing in power. There's nothing in sight aside from ridiculously overpriced limited-run Mustangs that anyone can even get remotely excited about in the entire F-L-M portfolio. If we're forced to accept class-trailing power, you'd think they'd at least be doing something else class-leading. Best interiors? Nope. Latest available options? Naaaah. Best styling? We'll get back to you. Widest product range? Oh we'll have a B-car eventually....

Don't blame Ford...blame the Moronic beancounters and people making final decisions...projects you and I would have loved got nixed BIG time ( remember the Bronco concept...best thing in a while ) hopefully a majority of the buyouts etc punted half of the conservatism out the door! I for one have noticed changes big time, attitudes and product rumours underline my excitement, however i am COMPLETELY ( unlike some impatient ba$tards that post ) aware to the fact it IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN OVERNIGHT! Capiche? Be patient Obi Nick...the force is coming.....BABY STEPS! And dumb ass/ high risk/ low return small market vehicles that appeal to a few are NOT where the focus is right now..

[Edstock]

"Just something that's not ridiculously boring to drive. "

 

The AWD MKZ? The AWD Fusion? "Ridiculously boring to drive"?

 

If they're "ridiculously boring to drive", you probably have an endocrine system problem with your adrenalin production. Please seek medical advice.

 

Sure, they're not WRX Imprezas, but "ridiculously boring to drive"? Please.

[NickF1011]

"Just something that's not ridiculously boring to drive. "

 

The AWD MKZ? The AWD Fusion? "Ridiculously boring to drive"?

 

If they're "ridiculously boring to drive", you probably have an endocrine system problem with your adrenalin production. Please seek medical advice.

 

Sure, they're not WRX Imprezas, but "ridiculously boring to drive"? Please.

 

The AWD Fusion I drove was okay. The lack of power killed it for me though. Sorry, but 220 HP isn't enough to get an AWD sedan moving when there are other more powerful choices out there.

[NickF1011]

Don't blame Ford...blame the Moronic beancounters and people making final decisions...projects you and I would have loved got nixed BIG time ( remember the Bronco concept...best thing in a while ) hopefully a majority of the buyouts etc punted half of the conservatism out the door! I for one have noticed changes big time, attitudes and product rumours underline my excitement, however i am COMPLETELY ( unlike some impatient ba$tards that post ) aware to the fact it IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN OVERNIGHT! Capiche? Be patient Obi Nick...the force is coming.....BABY STEPS! And dumb ass/ high risk/ low return small market vehicles that appeal to a few are NOT where the focus is right now..

 

I've been trying to be patient with Ford ever since Bill Ford Jr. took over and promised he would turn things around. Time sure does fly, but soon enough that will have been a decade ago. Just how long will I have to wait? I already passed one car purchase without Ford offering anything I wanted. Will it finally be fixed the next time I'm in the market? I used to LOVE defending Ford. They had so many things to DEFEND with. They had market-leading vehicles. They led several segments in sales. They were competitive with other automakers. That has all fallen by the wayside. I can't win an argument with anyone these days on why they should buy a Ford. There are simply no compelling arguments to be made anymore for about 90% of their product (save Mustang and F-series).

[falconman13]

I don't know Nick, The Edge runs pretty good for what it is. The new Taurus should perform pretty well. at least I should think so. The new Super Duty is really powerful. So basically that leaves us with the current F series , which is supposed to get new engines next year and the Fusion. The Fusion, most people that have the V6 think the power is more than adequate despite what the latest magazines say. And from what I have read will get a boost next year.

So where is this "entire lineup" gap?

I know you want a 5 speed in the Fusion, OK , I think we all get it. But if they put it in, they will, if they don't, they wont. No one on this board knows for sure. At least I don't think so. Just because Dean says it isnt going to happen does not mean it isnt, so there isnt any reason to get all worked up about it.

 

I really love how people on this board hear someone else on this board say "Ford isnt going to do ____ (fill in your favorite response) And they get all worked up and say "Well, I'll never buy another Ford then, Ford Sucks etc.." Hell, for all you know that other person is some 20 year old kid sitting at an internet cafe in Mexico. What the hell does he know about Fords plan, but he got you to say you would never buy a Ford again.

[NickF1011]

I don't know Nick, The Edge runs pretty good for what it is. The new Taurus should perform pretty well. at least I should think so. The new Super Duty is really powerful. So basically that leaves us with the current F series , which is supposed to get new engines next year and the Fusion. The Fusion, most people that have the V6 think the power is more than adequate despite what the latest magazines say. And from what I have read will get a boost next year.

So where is this "entire lineup" gap?

I know you want a 5 speed in the Fusion, OK , I think we all get it. But if they put it in, they will, if they don't, they wont. No one on this board knows for sure. At least I don't think so. Just because Dean says it isnt going to happen does not mean it isnt, so there isnt any reason to get all worked up about it.

 

I really love how people on this board hear someone else on this board say "Ford isnt going to do ____ (fill in your favorite response) And they get all worked up and say "Well, I'll never buy another Ford then, Ford Sucks etc.." Hell, for all you know that other person is some 20 year old kid sitting at an internet cafe in Mexico. What the hell does he know about Fords plan, but he got you to say you would never buy a Ford again.

 

 

Where is the gap?

 

Escape refresh could have been a lot better. 200 HP and a 4 speed auto?? That was nice 7 years ago.

 

Have you even SEEN the '08 Focus? The interior looks improved, but eeek on the craptastic Hertz Special exterior. And way to go on axing the 3- and 5-doors, along with any semblance of a performance engine with the mysterious and pointless cancellation of the Duratec 23.

 

Explorer refresh was half-assed at best.

 

Ranger? Crown Vic? Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Either fix them or kill them already.

 

Taurus may do better, but it's still not a completely well-executed effort, and from what I can see, it has the same carryover interior from the Five Hundred, which was far from class-leading.

 

Edge is a good effort, but you still have the (overblown) braking issues and the interior could still use work. At least they got the powertrain right. The Edge is actually the one shining star that leaves me with a GLIMMER of hope for Ford in the long run.

 

I won't even mention anything from Mercury.

 

Lincoln....I'm not blown away by anything yet. Improved? Sure. Competitive? Not yet.

Edited May 11, 2007 by NickF1011

[Deanh]

I don't know Nick, The Edge runs pretty good for what it is. The new Taurus should perform pretty well. at least I should think so. The new Super Duty is really powerful. So basically that leaves us with the current F series , which is supposed to get new engines next year and the Fusion. The Fusion, most people that have the V6 think the power is more than adequate despite what the latest magazines say. And from what I have read will get a boost next year.

So where is this "entire lineup" gap?

I know you want a 5 speed in the Fusion, OK , I think we all get it. But if they put it in, they will, if they don't, they wont. No one on this board knows for sure. At least I don't think so. Just because Dean says it isnt going to happen does not mean it isnt, so there isnt any reason to get all worked up about it.

 

I really love how people on this board hear someone else on this board say "Ford isnt going to do ____ (fill in your favorite response) And they get all worked up and say "Well, I'll never buy another Ford then, Ford Sucks etc.." Hell, for all you know that other person is some 20 year old kid sitting at an internet cafe in Mexico. What the hell does he know about Fords plan, but he got you to say you would never buy a Ford again.

Falc...all I said is not right now...hell I hope thay do...eventually, but I do understand that now is not the time...actually from my standpoint i am kinda jazzed with all tyhe product action right now, grated some is a little half assed but effort IS being made, unfortunately some people want perfection IMMEDIATELY! Me I just try to be more of a realist...doesn't mean I do n't haver the same desires...

[Deanh]

Where is the gap?

 

Escape refresh could have been a lot better. 200 HP and a 4 speed auto?? That was nice 7 years ago.

 

Have you even SEEN the '08 Focus? The interior looks improved, but eeek on the craptastic Hertz Special exterior. And way to go on axing the 3- and 5-doors, along with any semblance of a performance engine with the mysterious and pointless cancellation of the Duratec 23.

 

Explorer refresh was half-assed at best.

 

Ranger? Crown Vic? Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Either fix them or kill them already.

 

Taurus may do better, but it's still not a completely well-executed effort, and from what I can see, it has the same carryover interior from the Five Hundred, which was far from class-leading.

 

Edge is a good effort, but you still have the (overblown) braking issues and the interior could still use work. At least they got the powertrain right. The Edge is actually the one shining star that leaves me with a GLIMMER of hope for Ford in the long run.

 

I won't even mention anything from Mercury.

 

Lincoln....I'm not blown away by anything yet. Improved? Sure. Competitive? Not yet.

agree on all counts........the 4 speed auto in the Escape REALLY chaps me....and as for the Edge brakes...so far ZERO customer complaints.........ZERO! People love tham, hard door sills and all....

[falconman13]

Where is the gap?

 

Escape refresh could have been a lot better. 200 HP and a 4 speed auto?? That was nice 7 years ago.

 

Have you even SEEN the '08 Focus?

The interior looks improved, but eeek on the craptastic Hertz Special exterior. And way to go on axing the 3- and 5-doors, along with any semblance of a performance engine with the mysterious and pointless cancellation of the Duratec 23.

 

Explorer refresh was half-assed at best.

 

Ranger? Crown Vic? Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Either fix them or kill them already.

 

Taurus may do better, but it's still not a completely well-executed effort, and from what I can see, it has the same carryover interior from the Five Hundred, which was far from class-leading.

 

Edge is a good effort, but you still have the (overblown) braking issues and the interior could still use work. At least they got the powertrain right. The Edge is actually the one shining star that leaves me with a GLIMMER of hope for Ford in the long run.

 

I won't even mention anything from Mercury.

 

Lincoln....I'm not blown away by anything yet. Improved? Sure. Competitive? Not yet.

 

Nick,

Escape refresh, I like the Escape refresh, maybe I am the only one. But I don't think people that buy Escapes are buying them to race, and from what I have seen lately, the majority of what they are selling at my local dealer are the 4 cyls anyway.

 

Have I seen the 08 Focus, Well, since it hasn't been released yet, I have to say no. I did see the pictures the same as everyone else, but I learned long ago not to judge anything based on the picture.

I am disappointed by the loss of the hatches in the Focus line myself, but not from a fun to drive factor. As for the ST Focus, My dealer says it was a slow seller and he doesn't miss it at all.

 

Explorer. I cant really say, I am not a big fan of this vehicle anyway. I think a Freestyle is a much better choice, if you want something bigger, get an Expy. which I find very nice. I did notice that there are 2 different front ends on the Explorers, one has the "nostrils" for lack of better description, which I do not like, and the other has a larger grill which I find much more appealing

 

Crown Vic- Well , since it has been relegated to Fleet only status, I would think there would be 0 incentive to do anything to it.

 

Ranger. Ok, This, I agree with you on. However, save for the Tacoma, its still the second best selling small truck in the US. Pretty good for an ancient platform.

 

Mercury, The Milan is supposed to get the 3.5 next year.

 

Lincoln- Not my area,really don't know much about them.

[falconman13]

Dean,

Wasnt pointing fingers. Just making a broad statement that as far as I know, we are all just guessing so there is no reason to get worked up over what someone says may or may not happen.

 

I dont think anyone guessed they would be offering the 3.5 in the Milan next year either. But it appears they are. But that is still unconfirmed.

[NickF1011]

I dont think anyone guessed they would be offering the 3.5 in the Milan next year either. But it appears they are. But that is still unconfirmed.

 

One less reason to buy an MKZ. At this point, they may as well wait until the 3.7 is ready for the MKZ, unless we're in for a big surprise in the '08 MKZ too. Mercury is just stuck in a crappy spot. I'd have no issue at all with the Fusion getting the 3.5 right away, but for the Milan it just doesn't make as much sense since it sitting on the same showroom floor as the MKZ, so comparisons are undoubtedly going to be made. Tricky tricky.

[Deanh]

Dean,

Wasnt pointing fingers. Just making a broad statement that as far as I know, we are all just guessing so there is no reason to get worked up over what someone says may or may not happen.

 

I dont think anyone guessed they would be offering the 3.5 in the Milan next year either. But it appears they are. But that is still unconfirmed.

I realise Falc, i never took offense, what I find interesting here on BON is that we can ALL look at specific vehicles and suggest improvements, pretty easy to critique....what we DON"T know is incurred costs per request/ desire and the expected returns on such....now times that task by a whole brands entire line-up....like I have said....baby steps, one small positive step is a hell of a lot better than a Thelma and Louise LEAP!

[NickF1011]

I realise Falc, i never took offense, what I find interesting here on BON is that we can ALL look at specific vehicles and suggest improvements, pretty easy to critique....what we DON"T know is incurred costs per request/ desire and the expected returns on such....now times that task by a whole brands entire line-up....like I have said....baby steps, one small positive step is a hell of a lot better than a Thelma and Louise LEAP!

 

Baby steps, frankly, may not be enough. Ford has a boatload of cash on hand. They need to USE IT. It may hurt at first, but if they keep losing customers at the rate they are now, they'll have nobody left to buy the excellent product they may very well have out in another 5-6 years.

[Deanh]

Baby steps, frankly, may not be enough. Ford has a boatload of cash on hand. They need to USE IT. It may hurt at first, but if they keep losing customers at the rate they are now, they'll have nobody left to buy the excellent product they may very well have out in another 5-6 years.

boatload of cash?????...12 billion lighter last time I read the gloom and doom threads....and my opinion is they have WAY too much product now....ditch the X for starters, then the Sportstrac, spend the $ on stuff people actually buy, 6 speed 6cyl fusions...LOL! I mean BOF Explorers or the rumoured F-100 and ditch the Explorer AND Ranger alltogether......their last attempt on the Explorer was as pathetic an attempt as I have EVER seen....

[NickF1011]

boatload of cash?????...12 billion lighter last time I read the gloom and doom threads....and my opinion is they have WAY too much product now....ditch the X for starters, then the Sportstrac, spend the $ on stuff people actually buy, 6 speed 6cyl fusions...LOL! I mean BOF Explorers or the rumoured F-100 and ditch the Explorer AND Ranger alltogether......their last attempt on the Explorer was as pathetic an attempt as I have EVER seen....

 

Sarcasm noted.

 

I don't really see any product that they need to straight up get RID of though, even the Taurus X. It really CAN'T be an expensive vehicle to make. I do see it evolving more into a straight up Taurus wagon though if they decide to keep it around. The Explorer/Ranger thing is probably one of their toughest decisions right now. If done right, they will make a BOATLOAD of money. If done wrong, they could really sink the ship.