Government

[Maislebandit]

I know many of you believe the government will not do anything to slow, stop, or reverse the current trend of our industries downward spiral, and you may be correct.

For arguements sake, imagine Delphi turning out worse case for the worker, okay?

Now, if that is to happen the industry as a whole is subject to the same ideals , right?

So if the whole (domestic) auto industry goes in the dumper, doesn't the feds kitty start to dry up also? (last time I looked, those parasites command the LARGEST piece of pie out of our checks, hands down)

This may be a drop in the bucket to them, I don't know, correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't our society been based off of our industry from the get go?

If we fall, I believe others will fall also (this is already happening, isn't it?) and at some point, they (feds) will have to -

 

1) take the same % while accepting less money (mmmm - don't sound reasonable with their track record)

 

2) add injury to insult and try to squeeze more % out of a already beat down income and at that point, a completely flogged economy.

 

3) change our trade policies to protect and benefit this countries workers first, not last.

 

I feel as we go, so does our government, and by saying we, I ain't talkin just the auto sector, I'm talkin all of us.

If your money comes from this country, private or public, it pertains to you also.

Our country is quickly changing it's definition, and after the dust settles, I hope our kids, and their kids can survive in a place where the past (present) sold off our integrity to please shareholders.

So enough of my ranting, let's hear what'chall think! :huh:

[methos]

forget it

Edited November 28, 2005 by methos

[the_wizard]

I understand what you're trying to say however trade agreements prohibit some of this. Almost two years ago when the airline industry was going thru it's race to the bottom I asked the question on this board could that happen to us? Reminding you all how it started there last time with PACO (I’m sure I have this acronym wrong) the air traffic controllers under then President Regan and then spread to us, who’s administration clearing sent the signal it was okay to bust Unions. However many of you said I was full of hot air trying to draw a correlation between the airline industry and auto industry.

 

Today American airline carriers are all still flying under funds giving from hedge funds but they are all going under most are in Chapter 11 and what is amazing is none of it is due to Foreign competition!! It’s been all internal competition (for now). With their airlines in good shape European and other airlines across the globe are both considering and laying plans for coming to American to finish off what they see as a weak industry. This would be fully legal under the Open Sky’s agreement.

 

Now you’re whole premise starts with less tax revenues from less UAW auto workers however the Japanese are making it a point to make at least 20% plant and capital investments inside the countries ( you can reference Sundays Free Press for the article on Toyota passing up GM as one source for confirmation ) they do business with for at least three reasons one is logistics, second is to prevent a backlash and lastly since Japan still needs to relocate much of is industrial complex outside of Japan. It is either that or they need to build a military to both defend it and acquire materials and that is what is considered one of the main reasons for World War II. Now that still may happen since China and Japan are getting into more and more disputes about resources. However in short I surely don’t see this or any administration coming to the aid of the auto industry.They all hold hearings as they court Toyota and others to invest more ;-)

Edited November 28, 2005 by the_wizard

[RayBarone]

forget it

 

Can the Government save all companies from bankruptcy?

 

UAW has failed to organize at Asian car plants in the USA, proof that they have no power or do not have any incentives for workers to become union members. Many UAW members would rather resign from the UAW than lose there jobs.

 

Last Monday's GM announcement of layoffs was a big blow to the UAW. UAW members at Ford better brace for the job cuts and plant closings that will be announced in January.

 

If the UAW provokes a labor war by striking; Delphi, GM & Ford will be forced into bankruptcy then NO jobs for any UAW members. It is evident that Ford and GM will release idled workers without severance when their contracts expire.

 

The UAW has to give in to whatever Delphi, GM and Ford offer, the UAW cannot not provide there useless jobs for the local unions and international group if they do not have an income which comes from union members.

 

Get rid of the UAW and save jobs.

[foxrun]

not republicans

[Pumpmaster]

Can the Government save all companies from bankruptcy?

 

UAW has failed to organize at Asian car plants in the USA, proof that they have no power or do not have any incentives for workers to become union members. Many UAW members would rather resign from the UAW than lose there jobs.

 

Last Monday's GM announcement of layoffs was a big blow to the UAW. UAW members at Ford better brace for the job cuts and plant closings that will be announced in January.

 

If the UAW provokes a labor war by striking; Delphi, GM & Ford will be forced into bankruptcy then NO jobs for any UAW members. It is evident that Ford and GM will release idled workers without severance when their contracts expire.

 

The UAW has to give in to whatever Delphi, GM and Ford offer, the UAW cannot not provide there useless jobs for the local unions and international group if they do not have an income which comes from union members.

 

Get rid of the UAW and save jobs.

 

 

I agree, Ray. "Getting rid of" the UAW will cause people to start buying Freestars, Freestyles, Montegos, Expeditions, Explorers, etc. Brilliant!

 

Fucking tool.

[dark270]

Can the Government save all companies from bankruptcy?

 

UAW has failed to organize at Asian car plants in the USA, proof that they have no power or do not have any incentives for workers to become union members. Many UAW members would rather resign from the UAW than lose there jobs.

 

Last Monday's GM announcement of layoffs was a big blow to the UAW. UAW members at Ford better brace for the job cuts and plant closings that will be announced in January.

 

If the UAW provokes a labor war by striking; Delphi, GM & Ford will be forced into bankruptcy then NO jobs for any UAW members. It is evident that Ford and GM will release idled workers without severance when their contracts expire.

 

The UAW has to give in to whatever Delphi, GM and Ford offer, the UAW cannot not provide there useless jobs for the local unions and international group if they do not have an income which comes from union members.

 

Get rid of the UAW and save jobs.

 

 

OH GAWD! another bush supporter......why dont you go to vietnam...OOPS.. i mean IRAQ .... and DIE

you stupid fuck!

[Tags]

Come on guys... What makes you think that the majority of the american populus actually care about what happens to the "American" car industry?

 

And while I may continue to be blasted as naive the problem is still boils down to one thing: GREED!

 

Everything the company(ies) do is about shareholder value.

 

It is also NOT the job or responsiblity of the government to bail out bad management. The United States of America is going to become a "3rd world country" with nukes <superpower? I think NOT> The priorities of this nation are screwed up and we have to change..... or die.

[cal50]

The government did not get the big 3 in trouble,they did it themselves. You can not even cry about foreign cars anymore because Toyota and Honda are designing them and building them here and MAKING money.

Shoddy engineering,cheap build quality,cheaper components,higher unit cost and a lesser warranty. Combined with vanilla styling and just OK mileage. And you wonder why we lost market share? Get real.

It will take more than a few spiffy commercials to turn this around. The Honda in my neighbors driveway was made in Ohio. My fathers new mercury Milan is coming from Mexico. I love it when a couple of the regular half wits blame Bush for everything especially the auto industry problems. You guys (at least one) live in a star wars saga. The UAW may be at the end of it's life cycle. Ford and the UAW are both to blame for this mess.

[Harry Bennet]

Can the Government save all companies from bankruptcy?

 

 

Get rid of the UAW and save jobs.

YOu okay Ray? That ain't your typical post

 

I am not expecting the government to do anything for the big 2.5 other than pay pennies on the dollar when the GM and Ford cannot pay pensions

It's hard to beleive but the rest of the USA does not see us as Middle Class but like lottery winners

 

Did any of you cry when Toyota bought the Subaru plant? Did you even know?

[RayBarone]

YOu okay Ray? That ain't your typical post

 

I am not expecting the government to do anything for the big 2.5 other than pay pennies on the dollar when the GM and Ford cannot pay pensions

It's hard to beleive but the rest of the USA does not see us as Middle Class but like lottery winners

 

Did any of you cry when Toyota bought the Subaru plant? Did you even know?

 

Us Ford/GM/UAW workers have to face it there is no one looking out for the middle class and quit falling for the propaganda you are fed by the UAW and Democratic politicians. They have been successful in fooling many into believing they are our savior, unfortunately most are stupid enough to believe there BS. I sure did, but not anymore.

 

Quit depending on others. If you want the government to bail you out, quit your job and go on welfare.

[Imawhosure]

One question to everyone---------->

 

Why do we keep reading topics like, "will the government do something," (save us) will Bush save us, will Hillary save us, will the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or congress (notice who I put congress with don't you, they belong there, lolol) save us.

 

 

Ummmmmmm, hows about are we going to save ourselves??????

 

 

On another note, read today business people from China admit they are not ready to enter the "auto globalization market," as their products will not be ready to compete for at least 6yrs.

 

So then, since not to many Asians admit such fallacys, we should conclude it is accurate, and the posters who insist that next year the big threat is from Chinese vehicles and we are dead, should rethink their position, and also refocus on our real, and present enemies.

 

P.S. Totally on topic, and only my opinion, the government will not allow GM to go under.........they will somehow save it. It is just not the people at GM, but it is a huge part of the economy involved here. Whats more, while the transplants DO have people that vote, it is nothing like the bloc that relys on GM. Understand that outside this industry, most people do not understand our claim of "unfair competition." We do, and the 1 or 2 MILLION people whos largest account is GM understand it too. No politician wants 2 million unhappy voters, and bad ripples running through the economy to boot.

 

Whats more, while I lean towards conservative thinking,(as if you didn't figure that out yet, lol) politicians do not want THE BAD aspect of a globalized econmy brought to light of the scale a GM debacle would be. It certainly would add many more people to the protectionist side of the equation just out of fear and anger.

 

Now then, what affect this will all have on union wages is unclear, but no party, no congress, no politician is going to run on the slogan, "I helped GM/Ford into bankruptcy, and the opposing party will be blowing that trumpet very loudly should it happen. Especially when they point out that the outcome of such a thing has given a monopoly in needed autos to a foreign entity.

 

Thusly, no, no, no, they will be saved, and whichever party proposes to do it.........yes, even if it is the evil republicans, you should instantly(as will I) become their most ardent supporter!(regardless of party affilitation, or what the idiotic UAW says. Vote for Gore and 4 bucks a gallon????? Harumph, HOW DUMB ARE WE?????)

 

P.S.S. If its the democratic party, I am supporting them too!!!!!!! This is business, lolol!!!!!

Edited December 1, 2005 by Imawhosure

[methos]

One question to everyone---------->

 

Why do we keep reading topics like, "will the government do something," (save us) will Bush save us, will Hillary save us, will the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or congress (notice who I put congress with don't you, they belong there, lolol) save us.

 

Because our problems are not just exclusive to us and the problems we are facing other industries have previoulsy dealt with, and now it's our turn. Government did intervene in the steel industry and managed to offer that industry help, at least in the short-run, however, I do not foresee any help for us as long as things do not deteriorate too rapidly. As others have already stated, the transplants are picking up some of the slack and building more facilities here and offering more work to domestic part suppliers.

 

I don't believe anyone is going to be our saviour and step in - solely for being our "saviour", however, given the direction of the economy, and staggering debts the country is incurring, it's time for some one to step up to to the plate and decide on another course. If not the government, then who? Consider, we have gone from a manufacturing to a service, and now to an economy based on consumerism? I am just a factory-rat, so hey what do I know, but it doesn't take a graduate from the Kennedy School of Government to look at the growth in the triumvirate of deficits, national, budget, and current accounts to rationalize that the current course is a failure.

 

Not only are we losing unskilled jobs but we are losing to much in the way of skilled positions to research and manufacturing facilities no longer being built here but in other borders. What is it to much to ask of our government to question these losses and not simply pronounce them as good for us?

[methos]

Thusly, no, no, no, they will be saved, and whichever party proposes to do it.........yes, even if it is the evil republicans, you should instantly(as will I) become their most ardent supporter!(regardless of party affilitation, or what the idiotic UAW says. Vote for Gore and 4 bucks a gallon????? Harumph, HOW DUMB ARE WE?????)

 

P.S.S. If its the democratic party, I am supporting them too!!!!!!! This is business, lolol!!!!!

 

 

I know we have been through this and the fact that you and 32% other union workers do not vote Democrat is amazing. I listen to NPR on my long drives, and I rarely if ever hear of Republican pro-labor legislation, however, I always hear of some democrat trying to pass or fighting for labor issues. I really do not get it and for a long time I just could not fathom the ignorance of folks voting against their economic well-being. Maybe the message is just not getting through the liberal media? I know with all the liberal networks in particular, hmmm lets see, hey there isn't any liberal networks, wtf? Well maybe it is one of the liberal talk show hosts, hmm Donahue, oh yah he was fired. Hey, wasn't he the last real liberal host? So, the corporate-wing AKA right-wing media has Drudge, Hannity, Limpbaugh, O'Reilly, and a host of others, where are the liberals? Where is the supposed liberal slant? In the print media? They favored Bush 2-1 in the editorial pages. It's no wonder we have so many folks voting the way they do... We did have the Fairness doctrine, where both sides of ths issues had to be heard, however, that was too liberal, Reagan got rid of it in 1987.

[bbob]

OH GAWD! another bush supporter......why dont you go to vietnam...OOPS.. i mean IRAQ .... and DIE

you stupid fuck!

 

I couldnt have said it better myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[the prisoner]

just one question what the fuck has the democrates done for the union besides talk it all up we will save you thanks for the check we passed nafta get real both parties are out to screw you over its an accelerated death by republican or a longer but equally deadly death by the hilary democrats face it if there in voote them out if they haven't been in vote them in if turnover happens then they might have to keep there promises . look at good ole democrate ike and his vote on cafta he has no problem getting re elected but he's one of the pro labor the union backs and he was one of the last 2 that sold us out as usual. and with our great v-cap donations too.

[methos]

just one question... an accelerated death by republican or a longer but equally deadly death by the hilary democrats

 

 

Seems like you answered your own question "accelerated death be republicans". At least with Democrats there would be more time to prepare - for all involved. Who said it's a perfect world?

[Imawhosure]

Quick reply to Methos,

 

Methos, you are very intelligent. Your premise about democrats support of labor, as opposed to republicans is dependent upon the fact of IF and only IF you call labor union.

 

Automakers are expanding across the country. Every plant we close is replaced by at least one of our competitors plants, and it is bigger.

 

Now if you wish to discuss how they are not helping us support our pay, I tend to agree with you, but I am not sure they are supposed to.

 

Again, rather it is the UAWs job to insist on conformity in pay to protect us, and them in the process. The government, regardless of what party is in power, will not force our adversaries to raise their pay; unless of course they are paying below the legal wage, which they are not. It is up to our officers to get them under contract.

 

Here, just pretend you are going to be president, and think of how to propose legislation to help the big 2 1/2. Without hurting other Americans that toil for our adversaries in this country, it would be very, very, difficult to do I think. Our adversaries counted on just such a problem, and that returns us to the UAW. It is up to them, and as long as neither party hinders them trying, I can't see for us personally a preference of one or the other, as far is it pertaining to the business end of our lives.

[methos]

Quick reply to Methos,

 

 

 

Here, just pretend you are going to be president, and think of how to propose legislation to help the big 2 1/2. Without hurting other Americans that toil for our adversaries in this country, it would be very, very, difficult to do I think. Our adversaries counted on just such a problem, and that returns us to the UAW. It is up to them, and as long as neither party hinders them trying, I can't see for us personally a preference of one or the other, as far is it pertaining to the business end of our lives.

 

 

It really wouldn't be that hard to not only help the domestic automakers but help the country in general. We have always had two choices when it comes to energy comsumption and our policy has always been more is better, however, it is clear that policy is not going to work. Kerry had the right proposal with funds for research and transitioning to a greener transportation sector. We could have helped the domestics with the premise that all would benefit and for reasons of national security. There would have been some difficulties, but definitly possible.

 

The premise is two-fold. First we need to slow and even cut demand for petroleum and conservation is the fastest and most efficient method. Secondly, global-warming issues can no longer be swept aside and conserving would help not only the country but the international community and bring us back into the fold sort-of-speak. Not to mention help with the trade deficits and defunding the terrorists.

 

To me, and many others, it makes no sense that we aren't doing that, other than the administration is filled with former and current oil and coal special interest's.

[Imawhosure]

But Methos,

 

You are assuming this is what Americans want!!!!! It is not; at least according to what we see. SUV sales would still be through the roof were it not for the price of fuel. I am not suggesting for an instant that you do not have a valid point. What I am suggesting is--------> as a democracy we must work with what we have, and what we are being told by our fellow countrymen.

 

Not to bring you down, or anyone else for that matter who believes as you believe, but most highly respected economists with good track records........insist that the price of oil is artificialy propped up by futures traders. Their take is without a major disruption, the price will fall to between 40 and 45 bucks a barrel by someime next year. The graph shows that if their projections are accurate, gas depending upon the state you purchase it in, will drop to between 1.38 to 1.74.

 

We can debate what is good for America or what is bad Methos; it really makes no difference what we say. This economy is the law of supply and demand, and those traders have been artificially propping up the price of oil, have done both camps a dis-service. If it comes down and stabilizes at what I have posted, you, I, or anyone you wish to put up as a mouthpiece can scream all they want, and I seriously doubt any of our compatriots are going to listen.

 

Necessity is the mother of invention, and if the truth comes through, it is not yet neccessary to create an invention to solve a problem that really is smoke and mirrors.(and oil futures traders, lol. Can we have em arrested????? Just teasing)

 

You may not like it, but I am not sending you on a bum steer. Unless a terroist attacks, if you own oil futures, sell em and watch the (yes, slightly smaller) new crop of SUVs roll within 18 months!!!!!

 

P.S. The solution you seek will happen when the alternative is cheaper than the original. To put anyone in any office to artificially make this happen is......well......against what this country was built upon, sort of, kind of. It is a know fact that autos; or many other fossil fuel burning devices, can be run upon, or altered to, work with renewable sources of energy. It just costs alot!!!!!!!!!!

 

To think Americans are going to buy into this is "pie in the sky" until neccessary, is wishful thinking. How do we know???? Oh, I dunno, just ask the people who buy foreign cars new.......and ask how much they care about destroying manufacturing bases etc for what they perceive to be their own gain. That should give you a barometer about how much most people care about anything, until it comes down to dollars and cents!!!!!

 

America was built upon the premise, and I doubt it will change anytime soon. To try and fool them into doing anyones bidding without consensus of the massess will turn us into something else. Just look at how Bush is perceived because some people put forth the notion he fooled us into a war. True or untrue, I ain't going there and attempting to raise fuel prices to save the whales, and anyone who does shouldn't be throwing stones. (that statement is not meant to you Meth, rather to those who might consider jumping in to insist it is ok cause in their OPINION it is for the countrys good. I don't think they could stand........for any reason being bundled with "lonesome George," so I figured I would cut them off at the pass, lol)

 

Been a pleasure debating with ya!!!!!

 

Good Luck my Friend!!!!!!! And Happy Holidays!

Edited December 3, 2005 by Imawhosure