August Sales

[akirby]

Lincoln's doing well at present although the real test is whether or not they can sustain their sales growth when their newer models start to age.

 

Are you forgetting about the new models - MKS and Lincoln-ized Flex?

[NickF1011]

Are you forgetting about the new models - MKS and Lincoln-ized Flex?

 

And the fact that their newer models (at least the MKZ and MKX...who knows about the Navigator...) will be getting facelifts within 1 and 2 years time, respectively.

 

Lincoln is finally starting to look coherent again.

 

Now they just need to bring that continuity to the Ford lineup.

[ShockFX]

And the fact that their newer models (at least the MKZ and MKX...who knows about the Navigator...) will be getting facelifts within 1 and 2 years time, respectively.

 

Lincoln is finally starting to look coherent again.

 

Now they just need to bring that continuity to the Ford lineup.

 

Ohh wait, snap, it's already there. MkZ = Fusion, MkS = Taurus, MkZ = Edge, Navigator = Expedition. Even Town Car = CV.

[RichardJensen]

Continuity of design and continuous updates you knob.

Edited September 11, 2007 by RichardJensen

[NickF1011]

Ohh wait, snap, it's already there. MkZ = Fusion, MkS = Taurus, MkZ = Edge, Navigator = Expedition. Even Town Car = CV.

 

All of those vehicles either have completely unique interiors, completely unique exteriors, or both. The upcoming Lincoln people-mover should be an ever more drastic departure from its Ford platform mates. I fully expect every Lincoln forthcoming to expand upon that.

 

Now, go find me a full-line automaker who DOESN'T share platforms between its main brand and its luxury brand....

[RichardJensen]

Now, go find me a full-line automaker who DOESN'T share platforms between its main brand and its luxury brand....

What about Cadillac? Their most profitable vehicle is a gussied up Tahoe.

[TStag]

Are you forgetting about the new models - MKS and Lincoln-ized Flex?

 

No I was thinking about how their latest models like the MKS age. Not the older models which are due for replacement. Personally I've always been impressed by car manufacturers who get away without facelifting cars mid life to boost sales. Examples being the MINI MK2, Range Rover, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes C class, etc who survive without the need to whack a new bumper on. The Jaguar XJS is getting a facelift to try and boost sales, to me this shows that sales haven't been that good or much lower than expected. If the MKS survives without a facelift then Lincoln will be doing very well. But back to my original point when BMW, VW, Volvo, etc launch their new models then it will be interesting to see how the MKS stands up....can they make back the development costs (probably as it's just a sexed up Ford). Frankly speaking Land Rover is the only Ford premium brand that really acts like a pure premium brand aimed squarely at the German premium car makers/ Lexus. Even Volvo can't pull off the sales miracle that Land Rover has delivered. Lincolns challenge long term is to match these car brands. In this context only Fords desire to dispose of Jaguar makes a sale of Land Rover logical. It's Fords only competitive premium car brand.

[NickF1011]

No I was thinking about how their latest models like the MKS age. Not the older models which are due for replacement. Personally I've always been impressed by car manufacturers who get away without facelifting cars mid life to boost sales. Examples being the MINI MK2, Range Rover, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes C class, etc who survive without the need to whack a new bumper on. The Jaguar XJS is getting a facelift to try and boost sales, to me this shows that sales haven't been that good or much lower than expected. If the MKS survives without a facelift then Lincoln will be doing very well. But back to my original point when BMW, VW, Volvo, etc launch their new models then it will be interesting to see how the MKS stands up....can they make back the development costs (probably as it's just a sexed up Ford). Frankly speaking Land Rover is the only Ford premium brand that really acts like a pure premium brand aimed squarely at the German premium car makers/ Lexus. Even Volvo can't pull off the sales miracle that Land Rover has delivered. Lincolns challenge long term is to match these car brands. In this context only Fords desire to dispose of Jaguar makes a sale of Land Rover logical. It's Fords only competitive premium car brand.

 

How in the hell did you turn this discussion into something about Land Rover?

 

Only TStag.....

[suv_guy_19]

How in the hell did you turn this discussion into something about Land Rover?

 

Only TStag.....

 

 

He's very very sneaky . Besides. The Range Rover has had 2 facelifts now in this generation.

[TStag]

He's very very sneaky . Besides. The Range Rover has had 2 facelifts now in this generation.

 

...er it has??? Obviously they were big enough to be noticable.

 

No not a sneak attempt to move back on to land Rover. I was just pointing out that Lincoln's benchmarks are Japanese, German or Land Rover. That's where they must prove they can sell on their own merits. Long term Lincoln needs to begin to demonstrate that is can do better than breath on Ford designs and then hope to compete with the likes of Audi or Caddilac. Long term Lincoln must break free of rehashing Ford designs. It needs to be able to operate in the same kind of way Land Rover does. Jag and Volvo are both relative failures within the Ford fmily. That's why Ford should bench mark Lincoln profitability and model replacement programes against Land Rover. Fords only true and sucessfull premium car brand.

 

..anyway why not drag Land Rover into this? Isn't this a thread about August's sales. Do we want to be all negative about a 14% sales drop? Did Land Rover not lift sales by 6%? Perhaps we should talk about some of Fords other sucess stories, we've done Lincoln.......erm......any other 100% owned Ford brands increasing sales.....maybe if we split Land Rover and Range Rover and add Lincoln we can count 3.....

[Ford Jellymoulds]

...er it has??? Obviously they were big enough to be noticable.

 

No not a sneak attempt to move back on to land Rover. I was just pointing out that Lincoln's benchmarks are Japanese, German or Land Rover. That's where they must prove they can sell on their own merits. Long term Lincoln needs to begin to demonstrate that is can do better than breath on Ford designs and then hope to compete with the likes of Audi or Caddilac. Long term Lincoln must break free of rehashing Ford designs. It needs to be able to operate in the same kind of way Land Rover does. Jag and Volvo are both relative failures within the Ford fmily. That's why Ford should bench mark Lincoln profitability and model replacement programes against Land Rover. Fords only true and sucessfull premium car brand.

 

..anyway why not drag Land Rover into this? Isn't this a thread about August's sales. Do we want to be all negative about a 14% sales drop? Did Land Rover not lift sales by 6%? Perhaps we should talk about some of Fords other sucess stories, we've done Lincoln.......erm......any other 100% owned Ford brands increasing sales.....maybe if we split Land Rover and Range Rover and add Lincoln we can count 3.....

 

Ford Fiesta & Ford Transit sales both up on last year first 7 months, Ford of Europe sales up 1.4% on last year.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[jon_the_limey]

For all of TStag's posts banging on about Land Rover and however much it may annoy others.....

 

TStag does have a point!

 

Land Rover is successful now and has been for a few years, has it's strongest product line up in it's history, and has improving quality (albeit from a low starting base). Most of all it is profitable.

 

Ford has done a great job IN ONLY SEVEN YEARS of taking Land Rover from the fucked up mess BMW left it in. Probably because they applied the lessons learnt from Jaguar about interfering too much and let them get on with the things they are good at and giving guidance when required.

 

Just a shame that Ford desperately needs the cash to fund this VEBA trust they're trying to set up.

 

Needs must when the devil drives, and all that I suppose!

[suv_guy_19]

For all of TStag's posts banging on about Land Rover and however much it may annoy others.....

 

TStag does have a point!

 

Land Rover is successful now and has been for a few years, has it's strongest product line up in it's history, and has improving quality (albeit from a low starting base). Most of all it is profitable.

 

Ford has done a great job IN ONLY SEVEN YEARS of taking Land Rover from the fucked up mess BMW left it in. Probably because they applied the lessons learnt from Jaguar about interfering too much and let them get on with the things they are good at and giving guidance when required.

 

Just a shame that Ford desperately needs the cash to fund this VEBA trust they're trying to set up.

 

Needs must when the devil drives, and all that I suppose!

 

 

But LR isn't making all that much money. From what I've read here, it's not enugh to fund new model development. Despite the job that Ford has done with LR, they still have awful quality, the worst in the industry. Maybe ford should have interfered more. That was the problem with Jaguar. They let them stick with their old designs. Everything else was good but the design. With LR, its the qualiy that will kill repeat buyers.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

But LR isn't making all that much money. From what I've read here, it's not enugh to fund new model development. Despite the job that Ford has done with LR, they still have awful quality, the worst in the industry. Maybe ford should have interfered more. That was the problem with Jaguar. They let them stick with their old designs. Everything else was good but the design. With LR, its the qualiy that will kill repeat buyers.

 

935 LR2 sales & 865 LR3 sales sold last month can't be generating a lot of revenue for Ford, Land Rover sales, how many LR2 did they sell last year it looks like none, so they are going to be up on last year.

[jon_the_limey]

But LR isn't making all that much money. From what I've read here, it's not enugh to fund new model development. Despite the job that Ford has done with LR, they still have awful quality, the worst in the industry. Maybe ford should have interfered more. That was the problem with Jaguar. They let them stick with their old designs. Everything else was good but the design. With LR, its the qualiy that will kill repeat buyers.

 

Perhaps you shouldn't believe what you read on here, or what you read from "industry experts" in the media, or perhaps even what I'm posting!

 

Land Rover does have crap quality by JD Power and other "Public Domain Quality Report" standards. But what were those reports measuring and also what vehicles they reporting on. Do these publications go into the levels of proper Warranty Data Analysis with full component failure reports that can be used for parametric or non-parametric life data analysis? Also if Land Rover has only had vehicles in the field, which were fully designed and developed under Ford's control and ownership, for less than three years then how do we know from these reports that things have or have not improved under Ford. Well we don't and no one else here or anyone who reports in the media knows either!

 

Also what makes you think that Jaguar going for the retro-designs wasn't a directive from Dearborn?

 

So if someone says Land Rover is doing fantastic without proof then treat it with suspicion.

 

Conversely if someone says Land Rover is doing shit without proof then treat it with suspicion.

 

Nihilism is great, isn't it?

[ShockFX]

All of those vehicles either have completely unique interiors, completely unique exteriors, or both. The upcoming Lincoln people-mover should be an ever more drastic departure from its Ford platform mates. I fully expect every Lincoln forthcoming to expand upon that.

 

Now, go find me a full-line automaker who DOESN'T share platforms between its main brand and its luxury brand....

 

Because if it looks different it must BE different right? How about you show me another luxury brand that does not even have ONE platform of its own.

[suv_guy_19]

Because if it looks different it must BE different right? How about you show me another luxury brand that does not even have ONE platform of its own.

 

 

Why does everything always have to be compared like that. Maybe they should be like Infiniti, they seem to be doing well in sales numbers.....not. Lincoln was never really unique from Ford anyway.

Edited September 12, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[ShockFX]

Why does everything always have to be compared like that. Maybe they should be like Infiniti, they seem to be doing well in sales numbers.....not. Lincoln was never really unique from Ford anyway.

 

Total Lincoln Brand 120,476 in 2006 http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_dis...m?release=25114

Infiniti Division Total 121,146 in 2006 http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/01/03/032862.html

 

40,000 of those Lincoln sales were Towncars. I'm sure Ford would love to have the profits Infiniti has versus the profits Lincoln made.

[LincolnFan]

Total Lincoln Brand 120,476 in 2006 http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_dis...m?release=25114

Infiniti Division Total 121,146 in 2006 http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/01/03/032862.html

 

40,000 of those Lincoln sales were Towncars. I'm sure Ford would love to have the profits Infiniti has versus the profits Lincoln made.

 

Er... I am sure it's the other way around... Do you even know how much it costs to make a Town Car?

[Edstock]

I'm sure Ford would love to have the profits Infiniti has versus the profits Lincoln made.

 

And those profits are what, exactly? You seem to imply that the hot-selling Q and M sedans are making more money than the Town Car and other Lincoln product.

 

Please try to make your brain work a little harder. I know it's not easy, when you're hard-of-thinking, but if you try, you can do better.

 

Thanks for playing

 

[ShockFX]

And those profits are what, exactly? You seem to imply that the hot-selling Q and M sedans are making more money than the Town Car and other Lincoln product.

 

Please try to make your brain work a little harder. I know it's not easy, when you're hard-of-thinking, but if you try, you can do better.

 

Thanks for playing

 

 

Retail rebates on the Town Car top $7k, and dealers have even more cash to close a sale. I shudder to think what fleets buy them for.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/lincoln/to...55&state=MA

[LincolnFan]

Retail rebates on the Town Car top $7k, and dealers have even more cash to close a sale. I shudder to think what fleets buy them for.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/lincoln/to...55&state=MA

 

The TC starts @ 40K IIRC, that means 33K for the standard. Now a Crown Vic costs in 12 ~ 15K to make IIRC, I don't the Town Car would cost more than that, let's say 20K.

 

That's 13K in profits on a standard model, Infiniti can only WISH they made this much on any car they make (except for that SUV)

[ShockFX]

The TC starts @ 40K IIRC, that means 33K for the standard. Now a Crown Vic costs in 12 ~ 15K to make IIRC, I don't the Town Car would cost more than that, let's say 20K.

 

That's 13K in profits on a standard model, Infiniti can only WISH they made this much on any car they make (except for that SUV)

 

That implies that retail actually buys town cars. What do fleets pay?

[suv_guy_19]

That implies that retail actually buys town cars. What do fleets pay?

 

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Town Car is still about 50% retail.

[RichardJensen]

Because if it looks different it must BE different right? How about you show me another luxury brand that does not even have ONE platform of its own.

That would be Lexus and Acura.

 

 

That is a Toyota Crown. It is RWD and is engineered along with the GS & LS.