2 tier wages

[bustedknuckles]

I have been giving a great deal of consideration to the 2 tier wage structure and the future ramifications that it will bring. When you pick up the paper or turn on the news all they say is what about the company. My question is there anyone left in this country that cares about the average working men and women anymore? Do they realize we have family's and bills and hopes and dreams ? They only say we are over paid and we need to take pay and benefit cuts . Why should it be that the working people who only do whats asked of them have to pay for the mistakes made by those in positions of authority?I love my country and the ideals it was founded on but I am sick to death of the way it is being run into the ground. This was a great nation of innovative leaders in Manufacturing and technology,but our leaders and the greedy heads of corporations have sold our American dream to any third world nation that they can exploit and profit from. When will the average majority in this country stand up and say enough is enough? when will we take back what is ours? I have 3 children and I sincerely fear for what their future will be in this country. I understand some of the changes are necessary but what they are offering in the latest contracts to G.M. and Chrysler will only hasten the end of middle class America . This can only widen the gap between the haves and the have not's with nobody left in the middle.I cannot in good conscience vote yes for any contract that will further degrade my union and my country. thanks for taking the time to read my rantings

[Trimdingman]

I believe that improved efficiency is for the greater good; however I do not believe that cutting wages will improve efficiency. They are going to end up with an inferior workforce whose members will be quitting in droves when a job that pays five dollars less an hour or better comes along. High pay attracts many applicants giving the company a better choice. Which is worse, paying a few dollars more an hour or having more line stoppages and quality issues?

Edited October 19, 2007 by Trimdingman

[rc38]

I found a interesting paragragh in this link from the Detnews.

 

 

link

 

 

 

The UAW and Chrysler have identified 11,000 noncore union jobs that would eventually be filled by entry-level workers with lower pay and benefits. (Existing workers filling noncore jobs will not be affected by the new wage structure.)

 

Looks to be if you want one of the non-core jobs in the plant,if your a current employee. That you will keep your current wage. The question remains how will the fill the non-core openings,by bid or assigned? What will senority play in this decision?

If you look at the paragraph how it is written,it implies how they are filled in the future by existing workers after a another existing worker has left the job.

Brings up a whole lot more questions to ask. At first i thought the non-core jobs would be filled with new hires or current employees would take a big pay cut,because we all thought that these jobs would be paid under the new two-tier wage structure. But by the way the paragragh is written above,that doesn't seem to be the case as far as current workers goes.

 

Also heard from one of the union people in our plant,that the jobs that were outsourced under the COA's(cleanup,dock and etc.).

These jobs would come back in the plant as non-core jobs, instead of an outside company. Anyone else heard this?

Yes i know it a rumour,just curious if any other plant has heard this.

 

All i can say is they can take there good sweet time doing this contract. I'm in no hurry.

[rtbzdavies]

I have 3 children and I sincerely fear for what their future will be in this country.

 

 

I totally understand. I have two children. Our oldest is almost 16 and has learning disibilities. She struggles in school just to pass remedial courses. I am very scared of her future. I look at her strengths and try to push her into some type of classes they may allow her to one day provide for herself. With us residing in Michigan, I am even more fearful. She has joined a local volunteer group that mentors at risk children in detroit. (Her school was the only trial school they did in the suburbs.) I have been discussing the option of staying with the group after she graduates, and transfer to another state. Maybe then she will have some type of opportunity to beable to provide for herself.

 

IMO People want to see UNION workers take concenssions, because we have what they want. Decent paywage and benefits. They have been brainwashed to believe that a UAW worker is lazy, uneducated, and ungrateful. They believe that the average job is screwing a bolt into the car while it drives down the line. They believe the plant is one big party house where everyone is drunk or high. If they are not those two, then the UAW worker is busy sleeping in a corner somewhere. I think the funniest thing is when I read someone blog that they worked as a UAW member, but left because of the workers ethics. We all know that they couldn't hack it. American people have become lazy, and believe what they hear. That is easier then actually trying to research the truth. I know I for one am very grateful for the job I have. I would just like to know that I will still have a job tomorrow. I know anything that involves us taking major health concessions will get a "SHARPIE" NO vote from me. My wife has had open heart surgery and three strokes this year. There was no mention of how rehab is handled in the GM contract. There is no way that we could have 5 office visits a year. I have no problems paying more for my wife's care, but I can't lose everything we worked so hard for all these years. So the execs can get a bigger bonus. (we recieved the hospital bills for her procedures. The total cost was more than I owe on my house.) All we can do is hope for the best and stand strong with one another. I know right now my family can not afford a strike, but we have survived so much this past year we will figure it out. I have no shame when it comes to feeding my family and will flip burgers at the local mcdonald's.. :slap:

[Quickdraw]

I found a interesting paragragh in this link from the Detnews.

link

The UAW and Chrysler have identified 11,000 noncore union jobs that would eventually be filled by entry-level workers with lower pay and benefits. (Existing workers filling noncore jobs will not be affected by the new wage structure.)

 

Looks to be if you want one of the non-core jobs in the plant,if your a current employee. That you will keep your current wage. The question remains how will the fill the non-core openings,by bid or assigned? What will senority play in this decision?

If you look at the paragraph how it is written,it implies how they are filled in the future by existing workers after a another existing worker has left the job.

Brings up a whole lot more questions to ask. At first i thought the non-core jobs would be filled with new hires or current employees would take a big pay cut,because we all thought that these jobs would be paid under the new two-tier wage structure. But by the way the paragragh is written above,that doesn't seem to be the case as far as current workers goes.

 

Also heard from one of the union people in our plant,that the jobs that were outsourced under the COA's(cleanup,dock and etc.).

These jobs would come back in the plant as non-core jobs, instead of an outside company. Anyone else heard this?

Yes i know it a rumour,just curious if any other plant has heard this.

 

All i can say is they can take there good sweet time doing this contract. I'm in no hurry.

 

No, that says "Existing workers filling noncore jobs" that means employees CURRENTLY in those positions. You can bet that they will NOT allow line people to bid on cleaner, etc, jobs and continue their currect top tier wage.

[Zora]

Well said Brother!!!

[hendew_15]

Two tier is bullshit and causes division with the ranks and that is what the company wants to lead to the downfall of the UAW.The unions top tier wants numbers on the books,if that means 14 dollars working next to 28 dollars and causing a ripple in the workforce,I guess there good with that.We should not be good with that and fight it at all cost!

 

 

 

You know there are going to be those people who are just plain scared to vote no,we see them everyday.These are the people who have been running the same shit job for 10 years because there are scared of change and scared to make waves.Hopefully these people don't outnumber the ones who are willing to fight this travesty.

 

 

Get out a spread the word,get out there and talk to the timid!We have an obligation to to what is best for us and our families if the International Ford Department won't!!!!

 

 

I am just plain sick about this.

[Captain723]

Two tier is bullshit and causes division with the ranks and that is what the company wants to lead to the downfall of the UAW.The unions top tier wants numbers on the books,if that means 14 dollars working next to 28 dollars and causing a ripple in the workforce,I guess there good with that.We should not be good with that and fight it at all cost!

You know there are going to be those people who are just plain scared to vote no,we see them everyday.These are the people who have been running the same shit job for 10 years because there are scared of change and scared to make waves.Hopefully these people don't outnumber the ones who are willing to fight this travesty.

Get out a spread the word,get out there and talk to the timid!We have an obligation to to what is best for us and our families if the International Ford Department won't!!!!

I am just plain sick about this.

Just reading what little I seen of the GM and Chrysler Agreement...Cleaning will not be in Non-core jobs. These all will be outsourced, this will help in the harbour report on Hours Per Unit. This shows how competitive they are with other company's. Does not look like either will be doing cleaning work. Non-core work seems to be a little different at each contract.

They are not saying 2 tier they are saying entry level wages, which would allow these emmployees to bid into the Traditional wages as traditional jobs are vacated through attrition or whatever. People on non-core jobs that attrit will be replaced by entry level employees. They are doing this so that the company can come up with the money to invest in new product, which means more jobs. Once this happens they would use a blended rate to bid on new work or to bring in existing work that was lost because of uncompetitiveness!! Again no current employees will be affected by this and unless you have been unemployeed in the last 4 or 5 yrs FYI $14-$16 jobs are good jobs if you are not working at the big 3. Again reading their language it is only for entry level people. There will be people waitingh in line for these jobs and this will give them the opportunity to move or promote into a highly paid job.

Health care and pension benefits are great for current employees, retirees and their spouces.

Can anyone tell me what Health Care and Pensions benefits these people get if Ford goes bankrupcy? No Health Care and pennies on the dollar for pensions. Dana employees got one of the best I have ever seen and they got around $.70.

So you can have the best contract in the world, but if the company goes bankrupt because of it what did you get? What will you collect when you are unemployeed.

I think that looking at both agreements they really didn't get a bad agreement. If you think so then talk to some people that are not working directly for one of the big 3. They make $9-$12 per hr. They would be happy to have benefits and the opportunity to move to a 26/27 dollar an hr job.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Captain723

[sprinter]

Two tier is bullshit and causes division with the ranks and that is what the company wants to lead to the downfall of the UAW.The unions top tier wants numbers on the books,if that means 14 dollars working next to 28 dollars and causing a ripple in the workforce,I guess there good with that.We should not be good with that and fight it at all cost!

You know there are going to be those people who are just plain scared to vote no,we see them everyday.These are the people who have been running the same shit job for 10 years because there are scared of change and scared to make waves.Hopefully these people don't outnumber the ones who are willing to fight this travesty.

Get out a spread the word,get out there and talk to the timid!We have an obligation to to what is best for us and our families if the International Ford Department won't!!!!

I am just plain sick about this.

 

 

You are absolutely right. It is all about divide and conquer. Armies have been doing it for thousand of years. And just think about this if you vote for a two tier wage structure. In just a few years when you are in retirement and they are in control of the voting, do you think they will screw you as you did them?

[FANTASTICFORD]

You are absolutely right. It is all about divide and conquer. Armies have been doing it for thousand of years. And just think about this if you vote for a two tier wage structure. In just a few years when you are in retirement and they are in control of the voting, do you think they will screw you as you did them?

I agree, we will be out number less than 5 years. More buyouts and retirees will clear out the BIG 3 top paid UAW members. Two tier employees will be in control sooner or later and yes I think they will screw us.

[Mr.Roboto]

What special skills or training qualifies autoworkers for their wages? (crickets chirping)......

 

The wages are based on labor getting together and refusing to work if their demands were not met. Times are different now. If you want to be the last autoworker in the U.S., fine. I personally would like to see a wage correction and have jobs in the future.

 

I believe in one tier! Drop everyone's wages to a reasonable level. If you don't like it, strike. There will be a line around the block of replacement workers.

[Kimber]

What special skills or training qualifies autoworkers for their wages? (crickets chirping)......

 

The wages are based on labor getting together and refusing to work if their demands were not met. Times are different now. If you want to be the last autoworker in the U.S., fine. I personally would like to see a wage correction and have jobs in the future.

 

I believe in one tier! Drop everyone's wages to a reasonable level. If you don't like it, strike. There will be a line around the block of replacement workers.

 

Your ignorance is astounding!

[Furious1Auto]

Just reading what little I seen of the GM and Chrysler Agreement...Cleaning will not be in Non-core jobs. These all will be outsourced, this will help in the harbour report on Hours Per Unit. This shows how competitive they are with other company's. Does not look like either will be doing cleaning work. Non-core work seems to be a little different at each contract.

They are not saying 2 tier they are saying entry level wages, which would allow these emmployees to bid into the Traditional wages as traditional jobs are vacated through attrition or whatever. People on non-core jobs that attrit will be replaced by entry level employees. They are doing this so that the company can come up with the money to invest in new product, which means more jobs. Once this happens they would use a blended rate to bid on new work or to bring in existing work that was lost because of uncompetitiveness!! Again no current employees will be affected by this and unless you have been unemployeed in the last 4 or 5 yrs FYI $14-$16 jobs are good jobs if you are not working at the big 3. Again reading their language it is only for entry level people. There will be people waitingh in line for these jobs and this will give them the opportunity to move or promote into a highly paid job.

Health care and pension benefits are great for current employees, retirees and their spouces.

Can anyone tell me what Health Care and Pensions benefits these people get if Ford goes bankrupcy? No Health Care and pennies on the dollar for pensions. Dana employees got one of the best I have ever seen and they got around $.50.

So you can have the best contract in the world, but if the company goes bankrupt because of it what did you get? What will you collect when you are unemployeed.

I think that looking at both agreements they really didn't get a bad agreement. If you think so then talk to some people that are not working directly for one of the big 3. They make $9-$12 per hr. They would be happy to have benefits and the opportunity to move to a 26/27 dollar an hr job.

You are either a company rep. an investor, or a UAW international rep. trying to sell a bad deal. You now have tallied a whopping 3 posts on your post count and in one of them are attacking my friend and a true union brother. If the company files bankruptcy (which they wont) they will still continue building vehicles. (who will be unemployed) No one registers a new account at contract time and speaks with the assurance that we are doomed if we vote the contract down without an agenda. You must have read the articles and have knowledge that we have been organizing outside of the existing bureaucracy, good luck your talking points are now mute Captain723!

Edited October 20, 2007 by Furious1Auto

[mrballsonya]

What special skills or training qualifies autoworkers for their wages? (crickets chirping)......

 

The wages are based on labor getting together and refusing to work if their demands were not met. Times are different now. If you want to be the last autoworker in the U.S., fine. I personally would like to see a wage correction and have jobs in the future.

 

I believe in one tier! Drop everyone's wages to a reasonable level. If you don't like it, strike. There will be a line around the block of replacement workers.

 

 

You are absolutely correct, why should hard working Americans demand a living wage? What a bunch of assholes we are. All this time.... giving our lives and bodies to the companies we work for...what fools we've been.

 

I guess we should just all roll over and concede to the fact that Chinese workers only get paid $.50 an hour and consequently we must somehow find a way to compete with that. Damn the fact, that we have substantial financial obligations that are based on a decent living wage. Maybe we should just all wave our white flags in defeat, and default on all our mortgages, car payments and other financial commitments. Believe me, it won't just be us that suffer from such wage concessions.

 

Roboto... you sir are a koolaid drinking fool. The current U.S. economy depends on the middle class. Once the middle class stops it's discretionary spending, the economy will collapse. Once middle class workers start to worry more about providing shelter and feeding their family, than buying that flat screen Tv or that Chinese made whatever. The U.S. will cease being a superpower. Gas prices are over $3 a gallon, natural gas and other utilities have all skyrocketed in the past 5 years...in general the cost of living in the U.S. has gone up, and yet we are expected to take one for the team...and let our rich get richer and our middle class get poorer.......BULL SHIT!!!!

 

As I recall, one of the founding principals of our country was "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" not "Shitty Life, Some Liberty, and the pursuit to be subservient to the ultra wealthy".

 

At some point our country was hijacked, and taken away from the average U.S. citizen. The Current U.S. government has become a cesspool of individuals, who will represent whom ever "donates" the most money to their coffers. Our Government no longer serves our interests, we serve theirs.

 

If things continue in this downward spiral, we will be the first generation in U.S history to have the dubious honor of seeing our kids having a worse quality of life than we did.

[bustedknuckles]

What special skills or training qualifies autoworkers for their wages? (crickets chirping)......

 

The wages are based on labor getting together and refusing to work if their demands were not met. Times are different now. If you want to be the last autoworker in the U.S., fine. I personally would like to see a wage correction and have jobs in the future.

 

I believe in one tier! Drop everyone's wages to a reasonable level. If you don't like it, strike. There will be a line around the block of replacement workers.

 

 

Spoken like a true blue company man. I for one as well as many of my union brothers actually have a rather extensive resume . I worked my way up in job shops on the outside ,working in unsafe conditions.I continuously had to take classes in robotics ,resistance welding, metallurgy etc in order to gain in value as an employee . I always had an objective that was to gain enough skill and time to be hired in as a U.A.W. Journeyman at a major manufacturer. I paid my dues in low wages lousy or no benefits and constant belittling from company lackeys. I will admit with my resume and education I can go else where and easily find a job that pays close to what I make at Ford. But I like my job and I make every effort to do it to the best of my ability everyday. I believe Ford is a great company one that has been left in some very in-capable hands over the years.This company has turned profits in the recent past under our current wage and benefit structure and can again. The only true problems that Ford has is public perception and a lack of desirable models. I ask this should the company lower the bar and shoot for 3rd or 4th best just because they do not want to be true innovators anymore? Or will they finally run out of excuses when they get the concessions they are seeking from hourly? I think not, they are rapidly running out of excuses and the markets will be their undertaker

[whereswaldo]

I personally would like to see a wage correction and have jobs in the future.

Just to piss you off is good enough for some.

[fishinguy]

What special skills or training qualifies autoworkers for their wages? (crickets chirping)......

 

Roboto,

The "Special skills" as you put it , have nothing to do with the wages. Its about sacraficing your body.

I dont have the stats on what percentage of retirees leave with injuries, like carple tunnel, roto cuff, buldging discs, bad knees, ect . But I would guess that its very high. That has to count for something dosent it?

Edited October 20, 2007 by fishinguy

[Pioneer]

You guys are arguing with a person who is mad for the sole reason of being laid off before he attained his 90th day. If he had, he would be rising against the two-tier wages.

[fishinguy]

You guys are arguing with a person who is mad for the sole reason of being laid off before he attained his 90th day. If he had, he would be rising against the two-tier wages.

 

Oh,

OK................didnt know that one. Wont waste my time

Thankx Dude

[Pioneer]

Oh,

OK................didnt know that one. Wont waste my time

Thankx Dude

 

 

IIRC, it was the Sandusky plant.

[FANTASTICFORD]

Your ignorance is astounding!

I was thinking Mr. Roboto is a person with a very high IQ genius like special skills with very little training. I think I saw him on the front of Forbes world's Richest people. Bill Gates III Microsoft Chairman#1 Billionaire and Warren Buffett CEO of Berkshire Hathaway Inc#2. I wish I had Margaret C Whitman CEO of ebay income, but I don't have special skills. Anytime a person post on a Ford Employee Forum and say we should drop wages, he or she must be very smart. We are going to keep our wages so we don't see this genius in line around the block waiting to replace us. If you respond to this post please use the words of your choice, I'm trying too be nice to a real Hater...one of many that post on this fourm.

 

[Trimdingman]

What special skills or training qualifies autoworkers for their wages? (crickets chirping)......

 

The wages are based on labor getting together and refusing to work if their demands were not met. Times are different now. If you want to be the last autoworker in the U.S., fine. I personally would like to see a wage correction and have jobs in the future.

 

I believe in one tier! Drop everyone's wages to a reasonable level. If you don't like it, strike. There will be a line around the block of replacement workers.

 

99% of applicants are rejected. It takes smarts to continually improve your skills no matter what the company throws at you. After years of working on the line, you have the manual dexterity and reflexes of a magician. These skills take years to develop.

 

The union does not have any more power than the company allows it to have. Witness what is happening now. The auto companies like unions in general because unionized workers make more money and buy more new cars.

[Mr.Roboto]

You guys are arguing with a person who is mad for the sole reason of being laid off before he attained his 90th day. If he had, he would be rising against the two-tier wages.

 

When have I ever expressed any anger at being laid off? I enjoyed my time at Ford, I was paid and treated well. The only "anger" I ever expressed was the fact that Ohio Assembly personnel took jobs at the Cleveland complex and then did not go back when their jobs re-opened. I don't even know if I'd call that anger, more like an observation of what took place and how it affected me personally.

 

Technically I worked as a summer vacation replacement worker, and did that for 3 years in a row. The last year I was there, my foreman wrote me a letter of recommendation and sent it to 7 persons of authority with the company and union including the hourly personnel manager and plant manager. During my time with the company, I attended nearly all of the union meetings and continued to attend the meetings for about a year afterwards. I still have my handwritten notes from the meetings.

 

As for two-tier, I absolutely do not support them. I believe that the jobs should be paid what they are worht, YES taking into account the drudgery and wear and tear on the body. I DO believe that a wage correction needs to take place as wages were raised artificially during good times that are now gone. High wages are great, but if they are unsustainable then you are shooting yourself in the foot. I currently own and operate a business and am aware every day that if I pay myself too much the business will not survive. The same as Ford and labor, I can pay myself more when profits are high and I have to cut way back when times are hard.

 

 

Come to think of it, when Robert / BON got rid of the employee forum "I" created and paid for a Ford employee discussion forum on EZ Board. But then you probably weren't around then. Hell, you probably think BON is a Ford entheusiest site and don't know its true beginnings.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Mr.Roboto

[Kimber]

 

You are absolutely correct, why should hard working Americans demand a living wage? What a bunch of assholes we are. All this time.... giving our lives and bodies to the companies we work for...what fools we've been.

 

I guess we should just all roll over and concede to the fact that Chinese workers only get paid $.50 an hour and consequently we must somehow find a way to compete with that. Damn the fact, that we have substantial financial obligations that are based on a decent living wage. Maybe we should just all wave our white flags in defeat, and default on all our mortgages, car payments and other financial commitments. Believe me, it won't just be us that suffer from such wage concessions.

 

Roboto... you sir are a koolaid drinking fool. The current U.S. economy depends on the middle class. Once the middle class stops it's discretionary spending, the economy will collapse. Once middle class workers start to worry more about providing shelter and feeding their family, than buying that flat screen Tv or that Chinese made whatever. The U.S. will cease being a superpower. Gas prices are over $3 a gallon, natural gas and other utilities have all skyrocketed in the past 5 years...in general the cost of living in the U.S. has gone up, and yet we are expected to take one for the team...and let our rich get richer and our middle class get poorer.......BULL SHIT!!!!

 

As I recall, one of the founding principals of our country was "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" not "Shitty Life, Some Liberty, and the pursuit to be subservient to the ultra wealthy".

 

At some point our country was hijacked, and taken away from the average U.S. citizen. The Current U.S. government has become a cesspool of individuals, who will represent whom ever "donates" the most money to their coffers. Our Government no longer serves our interests, we serve theirs.

 

If things continue in this downward spiral, we will be the first generation in U.S history to have the dubious honor of seeing our kids having a worse quality of life than we did.

OH HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited October 21, 2007 by Kimber

[Kimber]

I was thinking Mr. Roboto is a person with a very high IQ genius like special skills with very little training. I think I saw him on the front of Forbes world's Richest people. Bill Gates III Microsoft Chairman#1 Billionaire and Warren Buffett CEO of Berkshire Hathaway Inc#2. I wish I had Margaret C Whitman CEO of ebay income, but I don't have special skills. Anytime a person post on a Ford Employee Forum and say we should drop wages, he or she must be very smart. We are going to keep our wages so we don't see this genius in line around the block waiting to replace us. If you respond to this post please use the words of your choice, I'm trying too be nice to a real Hater...one of many that post on this fourm.

 

 

Im trying to control my anger with morons like this..its un-lady like..but pioneer is right...this sheet stain is just angry he didnt make the cut!!