theoldwizard Posted December 5, 2007 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 For just code, 2GB is extreme, even if you are looking at compiled C++ with all of its associated libraries, etc. Optimized code, which this will surely be, can be 1\10th the size of the basic compiled code. Unless they have case tables the size of Texas in there to help their control code in making it through its decision tree in a hurry, I can't see a single reason that the control software has to be 2GB for an engine management system. Though, now that I think about it, the emissions control systems can be quite ridiculously complicated as well. No one ever said anything about C++. Most applications are still under 1GB, but many are busting out, especially when you add TIVCT and VDE. If you can do better, then go sell your services. Oh yeah, last I heard about 1/3 of the code was for OBD-II. The EPA adds new requirements almost every year. It really should be called OBD-II.12 ! Why do you think Vee engines need 4 HEGOs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 5, 2007 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 ... Holy light, those guys were never payed enough... Pieces of code that I wrote in 1981-82 survived all the way through the end of EEC-V, which was only a couple of years ago ! I'll gladly take donations in non-serialized, unmarked $50 and $100's :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 5, 2007 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) Aren't Christmas Parties fun ! The TwinForce powertrain in the MKS will require it, and that's about a year away. CONFIRMED: The only NA PowerShift application prior to 2012 is the Fiesta/Verve. Development on that is a least 3 months late, but still containable. Edited December 5, 2007 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 5, 2007 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) Any news on where in Mexico the DCTs will come from? The NA PowerShift for Fiesta/Verve is not being built in Mexico. Wrong side of the pond. Edited December 5, 2007 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 5, 2007 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 ... what kind of processors do Ford engines usually use?... Currently they are using Freescale Power Architecture on all engine applications. Some of the standalone transmission controllers use different processors. The future could be different. Funny. Intel and AMD don't want anything to do with the auto powertrain business (at least CPU wise). Profit margins are too low and the volume is better on cell phone CPUs ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 CONFIRMED: The only NA PowerShift application prior to 2012 is the Fiesta/Verve. Development on that is a least 3 months late, but still containable. Um so how is the JV Tranny gonna hold up to the TF 3.5L engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbmphil Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Um so how is the JV Tranny gonna hold up to the TF 3.5L engine? Wastegate management by the ECU that controls boost levels through the first few gears, like the MazdaSpeed 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Wastegate management by the ECU that controls boost levels through the first few gears, like the MazdaSpeed 3. That wouldn't it make it worth the price of admission.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 That wouldn't it make it worth the price of admission.. So your saying since the Mazdaspeed 3 uses the same system, its not worth the price of admission? Seems like every review of the car says otherwise...and I'm sure the MKS TF will be pently fast with that system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 8, 2007 Author Share Posted December 8, 2007 Engine "torque modulation" to "improve transmission shift quality and durability" has been around for a long time on many different applications. With "throttle by wire" it is likely to be easier to hide it than on older cars. Worst example was the FWD Lincoln Continental with the 4.6L. If you were foolish enough to try a redline 1-2 shift at WOT, you might have gotten thrown through the windshield ! Just prior to the shift, the spark was severely retarded and almost all of the fuel was cut, dropping the engine torque to close to zero. The shift was made and a second later, fuel and spark were returned to "normal" for WOT. The first time you tried it, you would have sworn that you broke something until the fuel kicked back in ! Of course the Continental was the "baby Lincoln" only drive by little old blue haired ladies, who couldn't push the pedal down far enough to find WOT ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devodev Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 The NA PowerShift for Fiesta/Verve is not being built in Mexico. Wrong side of the pond. So true since they Europeans are getting all of the goodies right now. But Wiki/Getrag (not the gospel I know) says, "Ford (Mexico)". Since they want to build a zillion of them eventually, it would be nice to have some made a bit more north if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MERKURXR4Ti Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) Ford had a prototype running somewhere around 1985 (I worked on the project)... That prototype used an EEC-IV processor (16 bits, no FP, 32 MB)... Hey a good ol EEC-IV just upgraded my car to an SVO's IV I tend to agree that the TF should go hand in hand with the powershift....too bad I guess that explains why the 3.5ttdi went from 415/415 in concept to about 340/340. Generally though I get the idea that Ford needs more engineers...hint hint right here Edited January 10, 2008 by MERKURXR4Ti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devodev Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 So true since they Europeans are getting all of the goodies right now. But Wiki/Getrag (not the gospel I know) says, "Ford (Mexico)". Since they want to build a zillion of them eventually, it would be nice to have some made a bit more north if possible. Looks like Mexico it is, "In addition, through a joint venture with Getrag (GFT), Ford will establish a new transmission plant in Guanajuato to support various Ford products. Company officials announced the trio of investments jointly with Mexico President Felipe Calderón Hinojosa." - Ford Media Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 Looks like Mexico it is ... Yep, I saw that. I guessing this is a recent decision based on (recently increased) projected volumes for the Fiesta and the possibility of addition, large torque capacity, transmission (not that I have heard anything). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbmphil Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Getrag has already started advertising the PowerShift, as odd as it may seem. There's a billboard or two for it on I-94 in Taylor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Getrag has already started advertising the PowerShift, as odd as it may seem. There's a billboard or two for it on I-94 in Taylor. Any higher torque capable versions of PowerShift on the horizon? ...something that could accommodate a Mustang GT or similar? I realize these trans are all about economy but I think there's also an important hi-po niche based on these in the future. Any thoughts? -Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbmphil Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I'm not the one to be asking, I don't know anything about them. The last couple press releases from Ford did note a new Getrag/Ford joint venture transmission plant in Mexico though..most likely for the PartyShift for the Fiesta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 Any higher torque capable versions of PowerShift on the horizon? ...something that could accommodate a Mustang GT or similar? I'm certain that Ford and Getrag are working on higher torque capacity versions, I just don't have any details on what US vehicles it will show up in next. Where DCT "technology" falls downs is "launching" a heavy load. With no torque converter, there is no torque multiplication at zero RPM of the output shaft. Adding more gears is expensive and adds weight. The other issue is clutch life. Americans expect (demand !) 100k+ durability out of an automatic. Slipping the clutch (for launch and smooth shifts) causes wear. Expect to have to replace both discs somewhere between 100 and 200K. You will never get "tire smoking" launches. The software won't let it happen. As a mater of fact, the software will "give up" is you try to use the accelerator to "hill hold" (or pull a heavily loaded trailer) after only a few seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Good insight ...thanks -- I wondered about clutch life too. Do you know if the present examples are dry- or wet-clutched? I was thinking that eventualy the programming might be opened to the aftermarket or, more likely, 'cracked' by the companies that supply the dyno shops with their tune-management software today such that the DCT (and traction control) becomes part of the mix. Lacking that, it seems DCTs would give the manufacturers another tool/aspect to offer selectable 'personalities/modes' (e.g. std, sport, launch etc.) thru a cohesive total-systems management of the powertrain and it would seem DCTs are a natural for various control-point options (e.g. console-stick, paddle-shift, etc) with exquisitely accurate downshift-rev matching (as is already done on some cars) in certain modes where quicker shifting and minimal clutch 'overlap' time could produce some exciting performance at the touch of a switch ...in theory anyway. It would seem DCTs have the potential to offer many segment-tailoring and marketing benefits, besides economy, especially in the upscale and hi-po segments -- at least eventually -- and, over time, will bring another component into the 'tuner' mix ...probably inevitable, imo. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 Sorry for the late reply. Good insight ...thanks -- I wondered about clutch life too. Do you know if the present examples are dry- or wet-clutched? All of the current DSG use wet clutches, strictly for durability. I was thinking that eventualy the programming might be opened to the aftermarket or, more likely, 'cracked' by the companies that supply the dyno shops with their tune-management software today such that the DCT (and traction control) becomes part of the mix. I don't see any benefits (and a lot of pitfalls) for "tuners" hacking the DSG software. Lots of bad thing CAN happen (I worked on an earlt prototype back in the 1980s.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devodev Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 It looks like the Chrysler-Getrag venture in Indiana has gone up in smoke. So, there is supposedly a nearly-completed DCT plant sitting down there. Can Ford afford to snag it before VW or some other manufacturer? Seems like it could allow them to make many more than just the DCTs for the Fiesta and it's right in the backyard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 It looks like the Chrysler-Getrag venture in Indiana has gone up in smoke. So, there is supposedly a nearly-completed DCT plant sitting down there. Can Ford afford to snag it before VW or some other manufacturer? Seems like it could allow them to make many more than just the DCTs for the Fiesta and it's right in the backyard. If they panic they will pay too much for it. Ford has the money and I think this would be a very good investment for them. I think they can negotiate a good deal with Getrag. Maybe even make transmissions and sell some to Chrysler. I wonder if Ford could get some intellectual rights too? Ford could get DCT to North America faster with this plant. I can see the lighter DCT made in Europe and heavier ones made in the US. Would be great to get them in the Fusion. Get a couple more MPG, and add a little more acceleration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devodev Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I was thinking about the Fusion as well. Ford seems to be willing to allow the Fusion to show its sporty side, so a DCT in that would be an offering that Honda or Toyota could touch in that crowded sedan segment. Heck, I don't think Honda even offers a 6AT in an Accord right now. Chrysler's lost could definitely be Ford's gain in they could make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Since the financial market meltdown Ford has its hands full just trying to find affordable liquidity for capital tool-up to execute on the existing plan. Even with Congressional help (if that happens) to uncork rented funds at affordable rates, I doubt we'll see any 'unplanned' buys anytime soon. Ford just dumped a major portion of it's Mazda stake (from 33.4 to around 13%) to free a half-billion to reinvest in it's own plan. That's how tight money is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Since the financial market meltdown Ford has its hands full just trying to find affordable liquidity for capital tool-up to execute on the existing plan. Even with Congressional help (if that happens) to uncork rented funds at affordable rates, I doubt we'll see any 'unplanned' buys anytime soon. Ford just dumped a major portion of it's Mazda stake (from 33.4 to around 13%) to free a half-billion to reinvest in it's own plan. That's how tight money is. If GM goes under, Ford gets their sales. If GM went under, it would save all auto companies that could last for atleast a year. Only problem would be if GM got a big bail out and Ford did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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