theoldwizard Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 No really new news, just summarizing a lot. The "first fruits" of the Ford/Getrag PowerShift transmission will show up on the 2008 European Focus and the Volvo S30(?) behind the 2.0L diesel. This will be very similar to the trans that Chrysler is planning on building a couple years down the road. The PowerShift for the Verve (or whatever it will be called) has some unique features that, according to one "expert", allow it to get better fuel economy than a manual. From an emissions standpoint, it is much, much easier to calibrate the engine with a PowerShift compared to a manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbmphil Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 You probably don't have an answer for this, but why did Getrag develop all of the other dual clutch transmissions that are listed on their website? I know one's for the M3, but what about the rest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 (edited) You probably don't have an answer for this, but why did Getrag develop all of the other dual clutch transmissions that are listed on their website? I know one's for the M3, but what about the rest? Those are all in "proof of concept" stage. Getrag's "bread and butter" for years has been manual transmission. They are expanding with "automated manuals" (which I think are used in some Ford Transit vans) and now Dual Clutch (a.k.a. PowerShift) I believe that the Chrysler will be building something similar to the Getrag 6DCT250 The PowerShift going into the Verve is a "unique design". Edited December 5, 2007 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 The PoserShift going into the Verve is a "unique design". Posershift? Are you saying it's not really a DCT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 11, 2007 Author Share Posted November 11, 2007 CORRECTION The "first fruits" of the Ford/Getrag PowerShift transmission will show up on the 2008 European Volvo S30 S40 and V50 and European Focus, behind a new 2.0L turbodiesel. This will be very similar to the trans that Chrysler is planning on building a couple years down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devodev Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Any news on where in Mexico the DCTs will come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Any news on where in Mexico the DCTs will come from? How do you know it will be built in Mexico? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexpredator Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Volkswagen has been using Dual Clutch transmissions for years. Look at the DSG in the GTI, R32, and Eos, the thing is freakin awesome and should replace all future automatic transmissions. It shifts faster than a manual, is lighter and stronger than an Automatic. Ford should have been working on this ever since VW debut the first one about 6 years ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 How do you know it will be built in Mexico? Methinks he's being sarcastic about the breaking news that Ford is going to upgrade an assembly plant and manufacturing park in Mexico to produce a vehicle for sale in the US to replace the old Taurus. I think it's going to be called the Fusion or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Volkswagen has been using Dual Clutch transmissions for years. Look at the DSG in the GTI, R32, and Eos, the thing is freakin awesome and should replace all future automatic transmissions. It shifts faster than a manual, is lighter and stronger than an Automatic. Ford should have been working on this ever since VW debut the first one about 6 years ago! At the rate they develop products... they probably have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 At the rate they develop products... they probably have been. Knowing Ford they probably started developing it 5 years before VW did... I'm wondering when we'll see it here? I'm sure Europe will get it first, and we'll get it last, like in 2019 or something like that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 The TwinForce powertrain in the MK S will require it, and that's about a year away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 28, 2007 Author Share Posted November 28, 2007 Ford should have been working on this ever since VW debut the first one about 6 years ago! Ford had a prototype running somewhere around 1985 (I worked on the project). It was way before its time, but it did work. As a prototype, it a) weighted more B) was less efficient and c) more expensive than existing 4 speed automatics. That prototype used an EEC-IV processor (16 bits, no FP, 32 MB). Current work with Getrag started about 5 years ago and has gone through some major changes as its target platform moved down to the B car. I don't know what processor the PowerShift will have, but you can bet it will have 32 bits, FP and at least 1 GB ! My how things have changed ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Ford had a prototype running somewhere around 1985 (I worked on the project). It was way before its time, but it did work. As a prototype, it a) weighted more B) was less efficient and c) more expensive than existing 4 speed automatics. That prototype used an EEC-IV processor (16 bits, no FP, 32 MB). Current work with Getrag started about 5 years ago and has gone through some major changes as its target platform moved down to the B car. I don't know what processor the PowerShift will have, but you can bet it will have 32 bits, FP and at least 1 GB ! My how things have changed ! Do you know if there's any plans to use them in any other cars? And what about the rumors saying the MKS will get one next year?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Do you know if there's any plans to use them in any other cars? And what about the rumors saying the MKS will get one next year?? most if not all TF engines will have PowerShifts .. Also the Fiesta will have a PowerShift - no automatic. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Ford had a prototype running somewhere around 1985 (I worked on the project). It was way before its time, but it did work. As a prototype, it a) weighted more B) was less efficient and c) more expensive than existing 4 speed automatics. That prototype used an EEC-IV processor (16 bits, no FP, 32 MB). Current work with Getrag started about 5 years ago and has gone through some major changes as its target platform moved down to the B car. I don't know what processor the PowerShift will have, but you can bet it will have 32 bits, FP and at least 1 GB ! My how things have changed ! 1GB of data?! holy light, why would a transmission need that much of data? FP, what's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 most if not all TF engines will have PowerShifts .. Also the Fiesta will have a PowerShift - no automatic. Igor Fiesta (B-car) will be the first Ford US application of the Getrag PowerShift. It will also have at least one "unique" feature :beerchug: that no other dual clutch transmissions currently have. I still can not confirm that any other US application will get PowerShift before 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 (edited) Knowing Ford they probably started developing it 5 years before VW did... I'm wondering when we'll see it here? I'm sure Europe will get it first, and we'll get it last, like in 2019 or something like that.. The 2008 Focus 2.0l TDCi with Poweshift is to be launched February 2008. The Ford PowerShift Transmission is a six-speed double-clutch transmission system with the ease of operation of an automatic transmission, and it is completely new to Ford. When combined with the 2.0 litre Duratorq TDCi engine, the result is an approximate 10% improvement in fuel consumption and lower CO2 emission when compared with a conventional six-speed transmission. http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/coming_soon/ms_f0...a_intro/-/-/-/- Early 2008 will also see the introduction of a new 2-litre turbodiesel (2.0D) automatic transmission with Powershift technology for the Volvo C30, S40 and V50 model ranges Edited November 29, 2007 by MKII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 1GB of data?! holy light, why would a transmission need that much of data? Data ? Who said data ? That is mostly good old fashion 3rd generation C code ! Got to control 2 clutches, at the same time. There has to be at least 4 "sliders" inside the transmission that have to be moved. Sure you need some upshift/downshift tables, but most of it is code. I don't know about transmissions, but over 30% of the code in a engine controller was for OBD-II/diagnostics and that was still growing ! BTW, I heard that 3.7L DI-VCT TwinForce was having a problem fitting into 2 GB of memory ! FP, what's that? Floating Point ! EEC-V and below all used hand-coded assmbly language and fixed point binary math (grunt, grunt, grunt) Yep, "programmers" :shades: back then ate lightening and crapped thunder ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 The 2008 Focus 2.0l TDCi with PowerShift is to be launched February 2008. ... Early 2008 will also see the introduction of a new 2-litre turbodiesel (2.0D) automatic transmission with Powershift technology for the Volvo C30, S40 and V50 model ranges That is in Europe only. The US Fiesta (B-car) PowerShift is "different" and in this case different is better ! It can be different because it is going on a smaller, less powerful engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 (edited) That is in Europe only. The US Fiesta (B-car) PowerShift is "different" and in this case different is better ! It can be different because it is going on a smaller, less powerful engine. Apparnetly the C-Max will be offered with the PowerShift as well. Fiesta/Verve with the new 1.6 Turbo with around 180hp ? oops that more power Edited November 29, 2007 by MKII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Data ? Who said data ? That is mostly good old fashion 3rd generation C code ! Got to control 2 clutches, at the same time. There has to be at least 4 "sliders" inside the transmission that have to be moved. Sure you need some upshift/downshift tables, but most of it is code. Still, that shouldn't take more than 1MB (TOPS) of code. Unless they over-coded everything. I don't know about transmissions, but over 30% of the code in a engine controller was for OBD-II/diagnostics and that was still growing ! BTW, I heard that 3.7L DI-VCT TwinForce was having a problem fitting into 2 GB of memory ! Lol, what kind of processors do Ford engines usually use? 2GB is a lot of data... damn I never thought developing software for engines was this annoying. Floating Point ! EEC-V and below all used hand-coded assmbly language and fixed point binary math (grunt, grunt, grunt) Yep, "programmers" :shades: back then ate lightening and crapped thunder ! Holy light, those guys were never payed enough... :ohsnap: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 For just code, 2GB is extreme, even if you are looking at compiled C++ with all of its associated libraries, etc. Optimized code, which this will surely be, can be 1\10th the size of the basic compiled code. Unless they have case tables the size of Texas in there to help their control code in making it through its decision tree in a hurry, I can't see a single reason that the control software has to be 2GB for an engine management system. Though, now that I think about it, the emissions control systems can be quite rediculously complicated as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Ford had a prototype running somewhere around 1985 (I worked on the project). It was way before its time, but it did work. As a prototype, it a) weighted more B) was less efficient and c) more expensive than existing 4 speed automatics. That prototype used an EEC-IV processor (16 bits, no FP, 32 MB). Find that a dedicated computer from 1985 having 32MB of RAM to be out of this world, considering that 32Mb of RAM at the time would ungodly expensive and that most personal computers at the time would only have about 64K or 128K BYTES of memory at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 5, 2007 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 Find that a dedicated computer from 1985 having 32MB of RAM to be out of this world... Who said RAM ! That was 32MB of UV EPROM. There was a separate 2K external RAM chip that was in addition to the 240 bytes of internal (to the CPU chip) RAM. The production parts did not have the quartz window so they could not be erased. EEC-IV was an Intel design, that was unique to Ford, called the 8061. The first application was the 1982 Escort EFI. We did it all in 8KB of ROM. The next year we jumped up to 16 KB of ROM. The closest commercial Intel part was the 8096. Intel fixed the bugs (like signed divide didn't quite work right) we discovered in the 8061 and changed the 8 bit multiplexed address/data bus to a more conventional design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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