jon_the_limey Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 But I would love to work for Ford, so thank you. Trust me, the novelty would soon wear off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 This is America, anything below 2.0 is considered girly. Besides, the 1.6L sucks when it comes to power, no offence. I have it in the Focus. I had a 1.6 (about 116 hp) in my Miata. I always preferred it over the 1.8. It was smooth, willing to rev, and made a great exhaust note. Oh, and I never got below 30 mpg. I have no problem with small engines, just so long as they are GOOD small engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Trust me, the novelty would soon wear off! Never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joihan777 Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 (edited) Its not damage control. But I would love to work for Ford, so thank you. We really don't know all that much yet. It's the truth. Gotta say, I think quite a few of us would love a stint with Ford. (I mean in the design area) I kinda wish Ford would PM us and invite us up for a 'working' vacation or even a long weekend as some kind of focus group just to see what our collaboration would accomplish? Would be waaaay cool. Edited December 18, 2007 by joihan777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waymondospiff Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I have no problem with small engines, just so long as they are GOOD small engines. Exactly. When I was in the UK in the fall I had a 1.2L Corsa. The car was great - it could easily play with America - except for the 1.2L engine. Americans would love the fuel economy but they wouldn't stand the lack of power. A car needs to be able to merge onto the highway at less than full throttle to the redline in every gear... With Ford's past experience in cost cutting exercises I'm at least a little worried when I see Ford deciding on the least-cost option for a very critical product. While I see the point of Ford keeping costs as low as possible if the product ends up feeling cheap - people won't pay for it - mitigating the whole purpose of the new B-Car in the first place. For example the Honda Fit is a relatively stylish, powerful, practical, and affordable small car and sells for near sticker price. If Ford manages to make a relatively stylish, practical and affordable small car with a lousy engine it will not be as good as the Fit and won't sell as well or be as desireable. If demand is lower then the average transaction price is lower. Then what? A downward spiral that could easily be fixed by using a "better", more expensive engine. How much of a cost difference can there really be between the 1.6L "wanna-be Zetec" and the 1.5L MZR in the new Mazda2? A couple hundred dollars? And if the 1.5L MZR is more powerful and more efficient could it bring in more sales at higher transaction prices? I would have to say yes. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joihan777 Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Exactly. When I was in the UK in the fall I had a 1.2L Corsa. The car was great - it could easily play with America - except for the 1.2L engine. Americans would love the fuel economy but they wouldn't stand the lack of power. A car needs to be able to merge onto the highway at less than full throttle to the redline in every gear... With Ford's past experience in cost cutting exercises I'm at least a little worried when I see Ford deciding on the least-cost option for a very critical product. While I see the point of Ford keeping costs as low as possible if the product ends up feeling cheap - people won't pay for it - mitigating the whole purpose of the new B-Car in the first place. For example the Honda Fit is a relatively stylish, powerful, practical, and affordable small car and sells for near sticker price. If Ford manages to make a relatively stylish, practical and affordable small car with a lousy engine it will not be as good as the Fit and won't sell as well or be as desireable. If demand is lower then the average transaction price is lower. Then what? A downward spiral that could easily be fixed by using a "better", more expensive engine. How much of a cost difference can there really be between the 1.6L "wanna-be Zetec" and the 1.5L MZR in the new Mazda2? A couple hundred dollars? And if the 1.5L MZR is more powerful and more efficient could it bring in more sales at higher transaction prices? I would have to say yes. Scott Agreed The Fit is a winner by many counts (none of them mine however!). The Verve will need to have many compelling reasons for people to venture back to Ford. (For many Americans, buying Ford is still considered a gamble.) A safer structure, comparable fuel economy, more features and better performance [better-bang-for-the-buck theory] are REQUIRED for Ford to succeed in the B market. If I were to buy a small car for my cousins or kid sis in HS, the car had BETTER be safe and reliable and not crappy to drive. Even if it cost several hundred more I'd gladly pay it for a superior machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 (edited) The venerable Kent lives on! (Albeit without the pushrods and with an aluminium head) RoCam is not based on the Kent - it is based on the DOHC Duratec (MZI / Sigma Zetec) from Europe. the block is iron instead of aluminum, the head is simplified, and the belt is replaced by a chain. The amazing thing about this engine is that it 108 - 111 ft.lbs of torque (depending on fuel) and 90% of it is available from 1500rpm - that is amazing for a 1.6l engine. Heck I bet my 2.3l MZR in my Mazda3 does not make 80 ft.lbs of torque at 1500rpm. I still think it is weird that Ford allows both MZI (EU Duratec / Sigma Zetec) and MZR (Mazda Duratec) engines to go on - they have practically identical numbers yet share no technology - one of them needs to be killed. Igor Edited December 19, 2007 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 I still think it is weird that Ford allows both MZI (EU Duratec / Sigma Zetec) and MZR (Mazda Duratec) engines to go on This is either a market problem or a bonus ! They are selling 2 totally different engines in England, the Duratec 1.4/1.6 SOHC in Ka and the 1.25/1.4L/1.6L DOHC in the Fiesta. From the current Ford UK Web page 1.6L 8V SOHC (Sportka SE)95 PS @ 5500 RPM 135 Nm @ 4250 RPM (100 lbf-ft) 37.2 mpg 0-100 kph 9.7 sec [*]1.6L 16V DOHC (Fiesta 3/5 door) 100 PS @ 6000 RPM 146 Nm @ 4000 RPM (108 lbf-ft) 43.5 mpg 0-100 kph 9.9 sec I'm certain the 8V SOHC engine is a lot cheaper than the 16V DOHC engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 This is either a market problem or a bonus ! They are selling 2 totally different engines in England, the Duratec 1.4/1.6 SOHC in Ka and the 1.25/1.4L/1.6L DOHC in the Fiesta. From the current Ford UK Web page 1.6L 8V SOHC (Sportka SE)95 PS @ 5500 RPM 135 Nm @ 4250 RPM (100 lbf-ft) 37.2 mpg 0-100 kph 9.7 sec [*]1.6L 16V DOHC (Fiesta 3/5 door) 100 PS @ 6000 RPM 146 Nm @ 4000 RPM (108 lbf-ft) 43.5 mpg 0-100 kph 9.9 sec I'm certain the 8V SOHC engine is a lot cheaper than the 16V DOHC engine. apparently the DOHC Duratec did not fit into the Ka engine bay designed for the OHV Kent engine. The Rocam is apparently smaller -maybe thanks to the iron block. Also the figures on the UK websites are different from those in Brazilian and South African websites -those websites also have the FlexFuel Rocam, while the UK Rocam is not flex fuel. My question however was not about Rocam v. the rest .. Rocam was designed for developing markets are a cheaper engine and one able to go without maintenance and with bad fuel. However my question regarded the 2 unrelated DOHC architectures at Ford: Mazda has the MZR engine - it is DOHC and come as 1.5l (and other sizes) and Ford EU has the MZI DOHC engine that comes as 1.6l (anbd other sizes)- the two engines are completely unrelated - MZR is newer and with a tad less displacement it makes a tad more HP and tad less Torque and gets a tad better economy. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 This is either a market problem or a bonus ! They are selling 2 totally different engines in England, the Duratec 1.4/1.6 SOHC in Ka and the 1.25/1.4L/1.6L DOHC in the Fiesta. From the current Ford UK Web page 1.6L 8V SOHC (Sportka SE)95 PS @ 5500 RPM 135 Nm @ 4250 RPM (100 lbf-ft) 37.2 mpg 0-100 kph 9.7 sec [*]1.6L 16V DOHC (Fiesta 3/5 door) 100 PS @ 6000 RPM 146 Nm @ 4000 RPM (108 lbf-ft) 43.5 mpg 0-100 kph 9.9 sec I'm certain the 8V SOHC engine is a lot cheaper than the 16V DOHC engine. The diesel engine is the best engine of them all fitted in the Fiesta 1400cc (Diesel...) Town MPG 48.0 Out of Town MPG 74.3 Average MPG 62.0 BHP 67 Max Torque 118 lb/ft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_spaniard Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I had a 1.6 (about 116 hp) in my Miata. I always preferred it over the 1.8. It was smooth, willing to rev, and made a great exhaust note. Oh, and I never got below 30 mpg. I have no problem with small engines, just so long as they are GOOD small engines. Seconded. My Civic has a 1.8L, and with the manual it's quite slick. I do wish it got better MPG tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 The engine/tooling might come from Ford Mexico, they use a 1.6L in the locally built Ikon. Dunno if it's imported or not. Anyway, I told you guys Ford NA would find a way to ruin the fine work done by FOE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 The engine/tooling might come from Ford Mexico, they use a 1.6L in the locally built Ikon. Dunno if it's imported or not. Anyway, I told you guys Ford NA would find a way to ruin the fine work done by FOE. i hope your suspicions are wrong.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 (edited) The best thing to do is to take a wait and see approach. Yeah, and two years from now... The best thing to do is to take a wait and see approach for the late fix... err, the refresh. Six years from now: The best thing to do is to take a wait and see approach for the next Fiesta. You just gotta love the "wait and see approach". Edited December 20, 2007 by pcsario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Yeah, and two years from now... Six years from now: You just gotta love the "wait and see approach". Exactly, we've been waiting for years for Ford to get their shit together, they no longer have time on their side, or sales of millions of trucks/SUV's to get them by anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 (edited) Yeah, and two years from now...Six years from now: You just gotta love the "wait and see approach". sometimes it works better than jumping the gun and speculative opinions.....difference between turkry and crow on the Xmas table... Edited December 20, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Exactly, we've been waiting for years for Ford to get their shit together, they no longer have time on their side, or sales of millions of trucks/SUV's to get them by anymore... Things are coming together in most areas, Some simply refuse to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Things are coming together in most areas, Some simply refuse to see it. Or, were just plain tired of the unfulfilled promises, mediocre products, and just plain tired of waiting for Ford to put out a product the general public wants to buy. Most consumers see it. Most analysts see it. You are either too blind, or just too oblivious to see it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 (edited) Or, were just plain tired of the unfulfilled promises, mediocre products, and just plain tired of waiting for Ford to put out a product the general public wants to buy. Most consumers see it. Most analysts see it. You are either too blind, or just too oblivious to see it yourself. Many people don't see it that way. I'm hardly going to take your view into account as you see everything as bad. If you can't see the progress in midsize cars and crossovers, then something is wrong (with you, not me). Edited December 21, 2007 by suv_guy_19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Many people don't see it that way. I'm hardly going to take your view into account as you see everything as bad. If you can't see the progress in midsize cars and crossovers, then something is wrong (with you, not me). God, are you always in defense mode? Why do you think he doesn't like the products that he works for the company it makes? He's leaving building and he's expressing his discontent, that's your answer. Well, Ford is going to pay for his school when he leaves the job, he can't hate someone who's going to pay for that. The truth is, I have yet to see a class-leader from Ford, except for the F-150. That's the truth. That's why people didn't stop from lining up at Toyota's dealers to buy the Camry when the Fusion came, that's why people didn't stop lining up infront of Chrysler's dealers when the 500 made it's debut. Are all of these people wrong? Do you really think you're the only person who's right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 God, are you always in defense mode? Why do you think he doesn't like the products that he works for the company it makes? He's leaving building and he's expressing his discontent, that's your answer. Well, Ford is going to pay for his school when he leaves the job, he can't hate someone who's going to pay for that. The truth is, I have yet to see a class-leader from Ford, except for the F-150. That's the truth. That's why people didn't stop from lining up at Toyota's dealers to buy the Camry when the Fusion came, that's why people didn't stop lining up infront of Chrysler's dealers when the 500 made it's debut. Are all of these people wrong? Do you really think you're the only person who's right? I have got to say that l agree with you and Pioneer on this Lincoln, there is nothing more l would like to do than go out and buy a new Ford car but absolutely nothing appeals to me what’s so ever at the moment, l may be forced into buying a new Ranger which l don’t really want or need. Ford cars never used be this dull in the past you had a job to keep me out of a Ford showroom in the past, now l never go near one. Why don’t Ford build cars that the buyer wants anymore? Good point Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I have got to say that l agree with you and Pioneer on this Lincoln, there is nothing more l would like to do than go out and buy a new Ford car but absolutely nothing appeals to me what’s so ever at the moment, l may be forced into buying a new Ranger which l don’t really want or need. Ford cars never used be this dull in the past you had a job to keep me out of a Ford showroom in the past, now l never go near one. Why don’t Ford build cars that the buyer wants anymore? Good point Lincoln. not defending anyone, both sides are valid, 1/2 full to 1/2 empty discussions going on here, and as of now the lineup of cars ( not trucks ) is a little ho-hum...but seems product IS coming...thus my 1/2 full status...one just needs to exercise patience...some here are in-capable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 not defending anyone, both sides are valid, 1/2 full to 1/2 empty discussions going on here, and as of now the lineup of cars ( not trucks ) is a little ho-hum...but seems product IS coming...thus my 1/2 full status...one just needs to exercise patience...some here are in-capable... And it has to be realized that what we have now is better than what we had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 And it has to be realized that what we have now is better than what we had. I'd buy a Chinese car over the 02 Taurus anyday of the week. IT HAS TO BE BETTER, otherwise Ford would have been dead long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 And it has to be realized that what we have now is better than what we had. Verve will sell well regardless...IF....they don't water down the styling too much...and THAT is my fear.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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