Three month old order sitting in USOB

[fmorriso]

I think your dealer screwed you on the order due to allocation issues or other issues between the dealer and Ford. It's never a good idea to scream at customers, but sometimes a customer deserves it.

 

Ignoring whatever happened between April and August, here is what you did:

 

After negotiating a price and a contract in April, you waited until August (at least 4 months) to even mention X plan. Not only is this against the X plan rules but it's also not fair to the dealer.

 

After learning of the price increase you asked the dealer to discount it which the dealer declined. This is perfectly within the dealer's rights based on your purchase contract. At which point you threatened to sue the dealer and call the BBB.

 

Your options were to pay the new price (per your contract) or cancel the order and go somewhere else.

 

I worked in retail sales for several years while I was in school. There are certain customers who aren't worth the trouble they create just for one sale. You are one of those customers, whether you believe it or not.

 

I'd say you and the dealer deserve each other.

Where we seem to disagree most is over what exactly my options are. If there is a dispute over the price, I can:

1. Pay the new price.
   
2. Cancel the order and go somewhere else, wasting five months of effort and going to the back of the line if nobody has what I want in stock or wants to charge some outrageous premium over list price.
   
3. Seek relief for the price difference in Small Claims Court.
   

What is it about exercising my rights as a consumer under the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia to have a judge step in and resolve a dispute with a business involving less than $5000 that makes option #3 so bad in your way of thinking? I'm trying to buy a vehicle, not become best friends with the dealer. If the dealer wants a friend, let him go buy a dog.

 

If I had known that I could request an X-plan PIN in April and not use it until September, that's what I would have done. At the time I looked into X-plan PINs during early April, I may have mistakenly placed too much emphasis on the "use it or lose it" rule and decided to not risk losing an X-plan PIN by requesting one too early. Chalk that one up to bad research on my part. Still, it was worth a shot when I finally did get an X-plan PIN. After all, if the dealer felt like he could freely change the price in his favor at practically the last minute, why shouldn't I at least try to change the price back in my favor by asking for X-plan pricing? What's good for the goose....etc., etc., right?

 

Let's see what happens when Ford HQ inquires into why the General Sales Manager enjoys issuing verbal threats against a consumer. Or, maybe Ford HQ will put my letter of complaint in the "round file" (you're probably rooting for the later outcome, I bet). Only time will tell.

 

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Obviously, I'm not all that partial to the "do nothing" approach.

[mountainwoman]

Where we seem to disagree most is over what exactly my options are. If there is a dispute over the price, I can:

1. Pay the new price.
   
2. Cancel the order and go somewhere else, wasting five months of effort and going to the back of the line if nobody has what I want in stock or wants to charge some outrageous premium over list price.
   
3. Seek relief for the price difference in Small Claims Court.
   

What is it about exercising my rights as a consumer under the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia to have a judge step in and resolve a dispute with a business involving less than $5000 that makes option #3 so bad in your way of thinking? I'm trying to buy a vehicle, not become best friends with the dealer. If the dealer wants a friend, let him go buy a dog.

 

If I had known that I could request an X-plan PIN in April and not use it until September, that's what I would have done. At the time I looked into X-plan PINs during early April, I may have mistakenly placed too much emphasis on the "use it or lose it" rule and decided to not risk losing an X-plan PIN by requesting one too early. Chalk that one up to bad research on my part. Still, it was worth a shot when I finally did get an X-plan PIN. After all, if the dealer felt like he could freely change the price in his favor at practically the last minute, why shouldn't I at least try to change the price back in my favor by asking for X-plan pricing? What's good for the goose....etc., etc., right?

 

Let's see what happens when Ford HQ inquires into why the General Sales Manager enjoys issuing verbal threats against a consumer. Or, maybe Ford HQ will put my letter of complaint in the "round file" (you're probably rooting for the later outcome, I bet). Only time will tell.

 

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Obviously, I'm not all that partial to the "do nothing" approach.

 

A key question is whether the price increase was passed on to the dealer from Ford. If so, unless you and the dealer have an agreement that the dealer will bear the risk of a price increase, your options are limited. On the other hand, if the price increase was NOT passed on to the dealer from Ford -- which was supposed to be the case for orders placed before August 1, I think -- then you might consider making a complaint to your attorney general, or whatever official in your state is charged with enforcing your state's consumer protection law. All states have such laws, and I believe that in a few states, the law specifically prohibits an automobile dealer from passing on a price increase that the dealership itself does not have to pay. Even if your state's law is not that specific, I think your attorney general might well find that passing on a price increase that the dealership didn't have to pay is an unfair trade practice.

Edited September 11, 2008 by mountainwoman

[fmorriso]

A key question is whether the price increase was passed on to the dealer from Ford. If so, unless you and the dealer have an agreement that the dealer will bear the risk of a price increase, your options are limited. On the other hand, if the price increase was NOT passed on to the dealer from Ford -- which was supposed to be the case for orders placed before August 1, I think -- then you might consider making a complaint to your attorney general, or whatever official in your state is charged with enforcing your state's consumer protection law. All states have such laws, and I believe that in a few states, the law specifically prohibits an automobile dealer from passing on a price increase that the dealership itself does not have to pay. Even if your state's law is not that specific, I think your attorney general might well find that passing on a price increase that the dealership didn't have to pay is an unfair trade practice.

Good idea. I'll contact Virginia Attorney General Bob McDonnell in Richmond at 1-800-552-9963 tomorrow and see if any applicable laws are being violated by the dealer. A lot may depend on whether the umbrella group that includes this particular dealer operate as a Virginia corporation of an out of state corporation.

 

They may end up referring me to the Virginia Motor Vehicle Dealer Board, also located in Richmond to determine the next step.

Edited September 11, 2008 by fmorriso

[fmorriso]

A key question is whether the price increase was passed on to the dealer from Ford. If so, unless you and the dealer have an agreement that the dealer will bear the risk of a price increase, your options are limited. On the other hand, if the price increase was NOT passed on to the dealer from Ford -- which was supposed to be the case for orders placed before August 1, I think -- then you might consider making a complaint to your attorney general, or whatever official in your state is charged with enforcing your state's consumer protection law. All states have such laws, and I believe that in a few states, the law specifically prohibits an automobile dealer from passing on a price increase that the dealership itself does not have to pay. Even if your state's law is not that specific, I think your attorney general might well find that passing on a price increase that the dealership didn't have to pay is an unfair trade practice.

After checking with the Virginia Attorney General, I:

1. Filed a complaint with Virginia Motor Vehicle Dealers Board.
   
2. Filed a complaint with Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services Office of Consumer Affairs.
   

Both complaints request resolution of the dispute in either of the following manners, whichever turns out to be lower:

1. Sell me the vehicle at the price agreed to on 2008-04-21.
   
2. Sell me the vehicle at X-Plan price (which I already know will be based upon the now higher price, but might end up being the lowest amount when you include incentives).
   

I'm a realist enough to know that the probability of getting X-Plan pricing is somewhere between slim and none at this point, but I figure it won't hurt to ask.

 

The above are in addition to the complaint filed with the Ford Customer Relationship Center.

[akirby]

a:) the dealership is not Ford. This has nothing to do with Ford. The actions of dealer employees is between you and the dealership.

 

b:) it doesn't matter whether or not the Aug. 1st price increase applies to that vehicle or not. The purchase agreement allows the dealer to change the price if the retail price changes, which it did.

 

I am not saying the dealer is doing the right thing here but that doesn't mean it's legally actionable.

 

It's no different than walking into the dealership and saying I want to buy this vehicle and the dealer says the price is X, take it or leave it.

 

If you don't like the terms then walk away. You have no damages. Your lawsuit would be frivolous.

[akirby]

This attitude fits perfectly with the entire Ford customer service philosophy!

If you don't already work for them, you should consider it!

 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Ford. This is a dealership issue.

Why can't you people grasp that concept?

[09feh]

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Ford. This is a dealership issue.

Why can't you people grasp that concept?

 

 

The dealership is an extension of Ford Motor Company by contract agreement.

FoMoCo allowing this to happen at the dealership level is as bad as FoMoCo playing favorites with their dealerships and calling it "Allocation"

 

 

What did you think that big blue oval sign out front displayed?

[fmorriso]

a:) the dealership is not Ford. This has nothing to do with Ford. The actions of dealer employees is between you and the dealership.

 

b:) it doesn't matter whether or not the Aug. 1st price increase applies to that vehicle or not. The purchase agreement allows the dealer to change the price if the retail price changes, which it did.

 

I am not saying the dealer is doing the right thing here but that doesn't mean it's legally actionable.

 

It's no different than walking into the dealership and saying I want to buy this vehicle and the dealer says the price is X, take it or leave it.

 

If you don't like the terms then walk away. You have no damages. Your lawsuit would be frivolous.

Let's see how the various dispute resolution processes work.

 

Then there is Small Claims Court, which in Virginia at least, bans the use of lawyers unless they are representing themselves.

 

After that, we can talk about lawsuits and debate whether or not they are frivolous. We're still pretty early in the process to use the nuclear option.

[Green Lantern]

I am really sorry for all your problems but I have to agree with some others here in that I don't agree with your approach. You did not have a guaranteed price in April, you had an estimated price. You did not ask the dealer if he would accept an x-plan sale at the time which is what was supposed to happen. You are now assuming that the dealer did not have the price raised to him. So as retaliation for the dealer wanting to pass along the price increase (which they are allowed to do) you sought an x-plan price (which was within your right). The dealer refused (which was within his rights) so you now want to take him to court or task through the various methods you have discussed above. The dealer had no right to yell at you as you say he did so I am in agreement with you that this was totally wrong. But I believe you referred to him as whiney. I am sorry but I think that if someone were to go back and read all your posts regarding your vehicle on this board they would come to that same conclusion of you. Quite simply, I hope you get the satisfaction you seek but I don't think you will be satisfied with the outcome. If I were you I would have cut bait a long time ago and either gone to another dealer and ordered another vehicle, got one from a dealer that was getting inventory or simply gone after another vehicle altogether. That is just my opinion and I am sure many will not agree with me.

[fmorriso]

I am really sorry for all your problems but I have to agree with some others here in that I don't agree with your approach. You did not have a guaranteed price in April, you had an estimated price. You did not ask the dealer if he would accept an x-plan sale at the time which is what was supposed to happen. You are now assuming that the dealer did not have the price raised to him. So as retaliation for the dealer wanting to pass along the price increase (which they are allowed to do) you sought an x-plan price (which was within your right). The dealer refused (which was within his rights) so you now want to take him to court or task through the various methods you have discussed above. The dealer had no right to yell at you as you say he did so I am in agreement with you that this was totally wrong. But I believe you referred to him as whiney. I am sorry but I think that if someone were to go back and read all your posts regarding your vehicle on this board they would come to that same conclusion of you. Quite simply, I hope you get the satisfaction you seek but I don't think you will be satisfied with the outcome. If I were you I would have cut bait a long time ago and either gone to another dealer and ordered another vehicle, got one from a dealer that was getting inventory or simply gone after another vehicle altogether. That is just my opinion and I am sure many will not agree with me.

1. I have no idea if the dealer had the price raised to him. He hasn't produced an invoice to prove it one way or the other - and we know his word isn't trustworthy. The dispute resolution process may provide some useful insight into that question.
   
2. Retaliation is not how I view the introduction of the X-Plan PIN into the negotiation process. Remember - everything is negotiable, despite what a dealer may tell you otherwise.
   
3. Tossing out five months of effort and starting from scratch may be your idea of how to handle this. You're certainly welcome to that opinion. To me that's the roll over and surrender option, which is not in my nature.
   
4. What's the difference between me and a Gila Monster? Hint: it ain't lipstick!
   

Edited September 11, 2008 by fmorriso

[Pioneer]

The dealer is not required to sell any vehicle on X-plan. It is totally voluntary, and up to the discretion of that dealer.

 

Personally, I think you have too much time on your hands and are paranoid beyond belief. If the vehicle isn't built yet, and the model had a price increase, you will have to pay the price increase unless you have a signed agreement to the previous price.

[GaryG]

My suggestion to fmorriso is to find a '09 through a search as other are doing. This is clearly a bad dealer problem that would make me walk away long ago. Ford is getting the blame to much for these bad dealers and thank God for Ford allowing ViperPilot to put the truth out about orders. There are good dealers out there who want to make a good name for them and Ford, so screw the bad dealers.

 

I don't think fmorriso should expect X-Plan from this dealer, but orders were price protected prior to August 1. Fmorriso should use his Pin to get X-Plan or a better price from another dealer at this point. Better hurry fmorrico, these are great vehicles!

[GaryG]

Double post deleted

Edited September 12, 2008 by GaryG

[Green Lantern]

1. What's the difference between me and a Gila Monster? Hint: it ain't lipstick!
   

 

Sorry man but I say your whining is no better than that of the dealer. Like GaryG said, I would have walked away and found the vehicle you wanted without all the hassle you feel like you have been put through a long time ago. Sometimes digging your heels in and fighting is just not the right way to go. But, as you said, that is my opinion and you have yours. I just have disagreed with the way you have tried to use this forum as your personal crusade on the evils done unto you. Personally I would not want to deal with a dealer that had treated me as badly as you have been. Why you continue to allow it is confusing to me.

[fmorriso]

Sorry man but I say your whining is no better than that of the dealer. Like GaryG said, I would have walked away and found the vehicle you wanted without all the hassle you feel like you have been put through a long time ago. Sometimes digging your heels in and fighting is just not the right way to go. But, as you said, that is my opinion and you have yours. I just have disagreed with the way you have tried to use this forum as your personal crusade on the evils done unto you. Personally I would not want to deal with a dealer that had treated me as badly as you have been. Why you continue to allow it is confusing to me.

If you leave a Gila Monster alone and don't mess with it, it'll leave you alone too. When you get too close or threaten them, that's when they bite. And it's no ordinary bite. They clamp down better than any vise you've ever seen, don't let go and pretty much make it clear that you've made one of the worst mistakes you'll ever make.

 

The dealer picked the wrong fight with the wrong Gila Monster.

Edited September 12, 2008 by fmorriso

[Green Lantern]

My money is on the dealer in this fight.

[akirby]

The dealer picked the wrong fight with the wrong Gila Monster.

 

Stop being so pig headed and try to understand that the dealer doesn't have to sell you the vehicle at all, whether you ordered it last week or last year. You chose to wait that long, you screwed up the X plan negotiation and you signed a purchase agreement giving the dealer the right to do exactly what they're doing.

 

Take some freaking responsibility for your own actions and stop whining like a spoiled little brat that didn't get his way.

[akirby]

The dealership is an extension of Ford Motor Company by contract agreement.

FoMoCo allowing this to happen at the dealership level is as bad as FoMoCo playing favorites with their dealerships and calling it "Allocation"

 

 

What did you think that big blue oval sign out front displayed?

 

Dealers are independent franchisees and have protection under state law. Ford cannot force a dealer to do anything thanks to state lawmakers. That's why they're buying out dealers to get rid of them instead of just forcing them to close. If Ford tried to change the allocations so that one dealer gets less vehicles they'll be in court so fast you won't believe it. You underestimate the power of state franchise laws and the separation of Ford and dealers. It sucks for Ford but they're stuck.

 

All other franchisers have recourse through their franchise agreements and are not protected by state laws.

[fmorriso]

Stop being so pig headed and try to understand that the dealer doesn't have to sell you the vehicle at all, whether you ordered it last week or last year. You chose to wait that long, you screwed up the X plan negotiation and you signed a purchase agreement giving the dealer the right to do exactly what they're doing.

 

Take some freaking responsibility for your own actions and stop whining like a spoiled little brat that didn't get his way.

If you knew what you were talking about, which you obviously don't, you'd know that I'm the adult and it's the General Sales Manager that is acting like a child, threatening to take his toy [the vehicle on order] and go home if I dare to stand up to him. I only wish I could have legally recorded the conversation that took place at approximately 3:50 PM on September 9, 2008 and play it back for you. There was only one adult during that conversation, it sure as hell wasn't the GSM.

 

If you really think I should bend over, grab the ankles and pay the extra $1030, send me a check.

Edited September 12, 2008 by fmorriso

[Walt]

Still, it was worth a shot when I finally did get an X-plan PIN. After all, if the dealer felt like he could freely change the price in his favor at practically the last minute, why shouldn't I at least try to change the price back in my favor by asking for X-plan pricing? What's good for the goose....etc., etc., right?

 

No, that is not right. :gang:

 

As already posted above, when you got your X-plan PIN, you agreed to NOT do that. You basically have an agreement with Ford that goes with the X-plan PIN, and you can't decide to ignore one of the very clearly stated X-plan rules because it doesn't suit you.

[akirby]

threatening to take his toy [the vehicle on order] and go home if I dare to stand up to him

 

But that's his right as a business owner/manager, which you don't seem to understand. Your only choices are to bend over and grab your ankles or go somewhere else. If the dealer decides he doesn't want to sell you the vehicle that's within their rights also. You can't force someone to sell you a vehicle at the price you want.

 

IF you had a contract that precluded the price increase, then you could buy the vehicle and take them to court to get the difference back. But you don't have such a contract. In fact your agreement specifically ALLOWS the dealer to increase the price.

 

You have the ability to get out of the agreement since the price increased - that's your only legal option.

 

You can't always get what you want or what you think is fair and continuing to cry about makes you look like a spoiled brat.

[akirby]

No, that is not right. :gang:

 

As already posted above, when you got your X-plan PIN, you agreed to NOT do that. You basically have an agreement with Ford that goes with the X-plan PIN, and you can't decide to ignore one of the very clearly stated X-plan rules because it doesn't suit you.

 

The only rules that matter are the rules that are in his favor. The ones that protect the other people don't count.

[Green Lantern]

No, that is not right. :gang:

 

As already posted above, when you got your X-plan PIN, you agreed to NOT do that. You basically have an agreement with Ford that goes with the X-plan PIN, and you can't decide to ignore one of the very clearly stated X-plan rules because it doesn't suit you.

 

 

Walt, actually he never had an x-plan agreement with the dealer. When he ordered his vehicle he never mentioned the x-plan to the dealer. He only got an x-plan pin afterwards and did not ask for x-plan pricing from the dealer until AFTER the dealer told him about the price increase. I still think this is wrong however because it is my understanding that a purchaser is to notify the dealer of the eligiblity toward an x-plan price at the beginning of the process. The dealer then has the option of participating or not in that program.

[Pioneer]

I have a question for fmorriso. Is the new price that the dealer is telling you that you would have to pay for the vehicle the same as what is on the window sticker posted in the VIN tracking section?

[burnsva]

I have a question for fmorriso. Is the new price that the dealer is telling you that you would have to pay for the vehicle the same as what is on the window sticker posted in the VIN tracking section?

 

All Window Stickers blended after August 1st reflect the Aug 1st price increase. This in no way reflects the price protection guarantee on dealer invoice pricing for retail orders placed prior to August 1st. My window sticker showed the new pricing, but it did not impact what I paid. (Order placed May 8th - Produced Aug. 20th - took delivery Sept. 3rd).