RichardJensen Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 the woman had put the hot coffee Hot coffee is seldom 180 degrees. 120-130 is more like it. http://www.ur.umich.edu/0304/Apr19_04/18.shtml --- And the point was that EU buyers expect different things than buyers in the US as a general rule. And Toyota/Honda, unlike VW, recognized the difference between their home market and the US, and by adapting to those differences scored success. Ford would be foolish to ignore the lessons apparent from Honda/Toyota's success adapting to the US market, and VW's failure to adapt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUCKRACER Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Wow, big news here guys! BUMMER!!!!!!!!!! No 3-DOOR VERVE?????????? That littel Jewel looks great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUCKRACER Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Wow, big news here guys! BUMMER!!!!!!!!!! No 3-DOOR VERVE?????????? That littel Jewel looks great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hot coffee is seldom 180 degrees. 120-130 is more like it. From the infamous McDonald's Hot Coffee case McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyatherton Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 From the infamous McDonald's Hot Coffee case McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. Thanks for clearing up the coffee case, although having any hot liquid between your legs (120 or 180 deg C) is not a good idea and there are plenty of frivilous law suits in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyatherton Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hot coffee is seldom 180 degrees. 120-130 is more like it. http://www.ur.umich.edu/0304/Apr19_04/18.shtml --- And the point was that EU buyers expect different things than buyers in the US as a general rule. And Toyota/Honda, unlike VW, recognized the difference between their home market and the US, and by adapting to those differences scored success. Ford would be foolish to ignore the lessons apparent from Honda/Toyota's success adapting to the US market, and VW's failure to adapt. You make a valid point about Honda/Toyota realising differences between the two regions. Some companies do make it work though. Mazda, Subaru, BMW and MB have essentially the same vehicles in both Europe and North America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Thanks for clearing up the coffee case, although having any hot liquid between your legs (120 or 180 deg C) is not a good idea and there are plenty of frivilous law suits in the US. Some scientist discovered that when coffee cools, a chemical reaction makes it turn bitter. So McDonalds management set a rule to keep it hot. Despite this Canadians consider McDonald's to have the worse coffee on the market. This may partly be because of regional differences in taste, rather than quality? Recently McDonalds has changed their coffee and it is now much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 You make a valid point about Honda/Toyota realising differences between the two regions. Some companies do make it work though. Mazda, Subaru, BMW and MB have essentially the same vehicles in both Europe and North America. Well, the overal engineering is the same, but the powertrains can vary widely. You can get much smaller and thriftier engines on most of their vehicles in other markets, including diesels (though, I am NOT trying to re-open that can of worms, we all know why they aren't here). Also, with Mazda and Subaru, you can get much better equipped vehicles in other markets that can't be purchased here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) You make a valid point about Honda/Toyota realising differences between the two regions. Some companies do make it work though. Mazda, Subaru, BMW and MB have essentially the same vehicles in both Europe and North America. Consider market share: Mazda & Subaru have a fraction of Honda & Toyota's market share. Consider also, that BMW & MB are not making entry level cars--they're making luxury cars, a market which moves according to its own dynamics Finally consider that BMW & MB have created cars more or less for the US/NA market in a bid to increase sales. Edited July 28, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 See slide 38 ! No mention of 3 door Focus or Fusion. Not at present. Wouldn't exactly be a difficult proposition to add them. Wasn't it originally going to be the other way around -- a 3-door and NOT a 5-door on the Fiesta for the US? Weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Agreed. I can't believe Mustang fans of all people, are against cars that "are great for one person, but you sure as hell can't fit the wife and kids into them". And yes, don't even try to pretend everyone buys a Mustang "just for the weekends" and always travels alone. The closest I ever came to using my Mustang as a "family car" of any sort was putting a baby seat in the back once or twice when I was friends with a gal who had a baby. I wouldn't damn my own children to the back seat of that thing in anything but an emergency. I can't tell you the last time I had a rear seat passenger in there. 6....7 YEARS maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSM Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 No mention of St. Thmoas Assembly plant or panther platform cars? Looks like mercury will be alive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 No mention of St. Thmoas Assembly plant or panther platform cars? Looks like mercury will be alive Many things were not mentioned. Ford will not announce new plant closings in this memo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSM Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 Many things were not mentioned. Ford will not announce new plant closings in this memo. So the end is near... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 Thanks for clearing up the coffee case, although having any hot liquid between your legs (120 or 180 deg C) is not a good idea and there are plenty of frivilous law suits in the US. There are a lot less frivolous lawsuits than you might think. Most personal injury cases are handled on a contingent fee basis. It the lawyer loses he gets nothing and loses the costs investment he has in the case. The increase in civil litigation over the past decade comes primarily from corporate litigation with corporations suing each other. Some of these suits are frivolous. The lawyers in those cases get paid by the hour so it makes less difference if they win or lose. Cases are harder to win these days. Insurance companies are less willing to settle even strong cases with good liability and damages. The fact that a jury doesn't agree with the Plaintiff doesn't make the case frivolous. The Plaintiff carries the burden of proof. I met the lawyer who tried the Stella Liebeck case. McDonalds' defense counsel tried to downplay the actual injury and treated her very disrespectfully on the stand. The jury heard the medical evidence of her burns and the skin grafts she required. The evidence proved that the coffee was served in a manner unfit (too hot) for consumption. They spanked McDonalds for its corporate arrogance and its poor choice of counsel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 (edited) I met the lawyer who tried the Stella Liebeck case. McDonalds' defense counsel tried to downplay the actual injury and treated her very disrespectfully on the stand. The jury heard the medical evidence of her burns and the skin grafts she required. The evidence proved that the coffee was served in a manner unfit (too hot) for consumption. They spanked McDonalds for its corporate arrogance and its poor choice of counsel. BON has got to be the only car forum you can log on to and learn the technical specifications for the correct temperatue at which coffee should be served. To redirect to autos, what kind of car was the lady in? Was that vehicle equipped with devices called cupholders? Did she think "well this coffee is only 140 deg.F. I'll only get first or second degree burns so I don't have to be careful with it" If she had ever ordered it before then she knew how damn hot it was since we have learned all Mcdonalds resturants serve the coffee at the same temperature. This kind of stupid shit is why manufacturers have to put stickers under the hood that state "FAN" don't stick your hand down there dummy. Or "HOT" don't grab the exhaust if the engine has been running. Of course that wasn't enough so if you cant read those 3-letter words they put little pictures of a hand with the universal bar/circle logo. Behind every dumb warning sticker there is a rich lawyer. Why haven't lawyers attacked manufacturers for intentially designing high performance vehicles to be capable of speeds double or triple the legal limits? Edited August 3, 2008 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 Why haven't lawyers attacked manufacturers for intentially designing high performance vehicles to be capable of speeds double or triple the legal limits? It's virtually certain that somebody has probably given it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 BON has got to be the only car forum you can log on to and learn the technical specifications for the correct temperatue at which coffee should be served. To redirect to autos, what kind of car was the lady in? Was that vehicle equipped with devices called cupholders? Did she think "well this coffee is only 140 deg.F. I'll only get first or second degree burns so I don't have to be careful with it" If she had ever ordered it before then she knew how damn hot it was since we have learned all Mcdonalds resturants serve the coffee at the same temperature. IIRC, it was an early Ford Probe without cup holders. The point is that no one expects scalding hot coffee. You expect to be able to drink it. That is what made the coffee defective-unreasonably dangerous for its intended use. Once the product is defective. Strict Liability applies since the producer/seller is the guarantor of their product's safety. This kind of stupid shit is why manufacturers have to put stickers under the hood that state "FAN" don't stick your hand down there dummy. Or "HOT" don't grab the exhaust if the engine has been running. Of course that wasn't enough so if you cant read those 3-letter words they put little pictures of a hand with the universal bar/circle logo. Behind every dumb warning sticker there is a rich lawyer. Why haven't lawyers attacked manufacturers for intentially designing high performance vehicles to be capable of speeds double or triple the legal limits? The stickers are there to warn of a danger that is inherent to the product. Engines need fans - exhausts are hot. Failure to warn is usually a part of a product liability case. Fault analysis dictates that you try to design the danger out of the product. If you can't do that you warn of the danger. The problem with you hypothetical on triple digit speed is that it is illegal to drive that fast outside of a racetrack. There would be no liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 From the infamous McDonald's Hot Coffee case McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. true..through much research the aroma of coffee and taste is best when brewed at 180 degrees..thats is a fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 The point is that no one expects scalding hot coffee. Like I said chances are this was not the very first time she had Mcdonalds coffee therefore she knew first hand what temperature they served it at. And if they didn't serve it hot people would be complaining about that because it's a lot easier to let it cool down than reheat it in the car. Also the temperature at the dispenser is not the temperature in the cup 5-10 minutes after it is poured. No cupholders? Ok set it on the floor or console. They won, now we have a stupid sign that says "caution, coffee is hot." It should be followed by "if you are old enough to be able to read this then you are old enough to know better." Fault analysis dictates that you try to design the danger out of the product. If you can't do that you warn of the danger. The problem with you hypothetical on triple digit speed is that it is illegal to drive that fast outside of a racetrack. There would be no liability. They are intentially designing performance cars to greatly excede the legal speed limit therefore they are not trying to design the danger out of the product. If they were all cars would have a mandatory 75mph speed limiter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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