Ford Motor Answers Employe Questons

[timmm55]

Fields:

A: Great question — and another key topic where misinformation swayed public opinion. The Fiesta we currently sell in Europe is, in fact, very fuel efficient. So is the one we’ll deliver in North America in early 2010. A key point, however, is that between the conversion from Imperial gallons to the U.S. equivalent and the drive cycle the EU uses to asseess vehicle fuel efficiency, the actual mileage of our ECOnetic(????) Fiesta is just over 40 mpg.

 

And

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Inves...sell-in-us.aspx

"We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

 

I think he's talking about our gas/petro US spec Fiesta.

[battyr]

The Fiesta Econetics only has 90 hp. You add the extra weight to make it legal in the US and the weight of the diesel block, most americans would consider the car to be gutless. To make it US emissions legal, you lose more power and your fuel efficiency drops. You convert to US gallons, mpg drop. Use EPA drive cycle, mpg drop. So the car is heavier and the efficiency drops. You put in a bigger engine and the mpg drops.

 

I could see using an EcoBoost 1.0 L. Should be good for 112 hp. and reasonable fuel efficiency.

[Versa-Tech]

I could see using an EcoBoost 1.0 L. Should be good for 112 hp. and reasonable fuel efficiency.

If Ford Launches the fiesta with the EB1.0, it will absolutely dominate it's market while making Toyota's engineers look like a bunch of clowns :happy feet:

[chucky2]

The reason the Jetta TDI comes up is it's the only affordable diesel car in the US, that's also sold in the EU. So it's really the only example that can be used.

 

To take the difference in gallons out, as previously stated, one must multiply by .8327 So, just to get the EU Jetta TDI into comparable US gallons, you'd need to take the EU highway rating (58.9mpg) and multiply be .8327, which gets it to 49.05mpg.

 

Also as already noted, this only gets the EU Jetta TDI to a highway mpg devised under the EU emissions testing, plus it's done on a Jetta TDI from the EU, so the safety specs differ as well. This is why one cannot use the 49.05mpg highway number of the EU Jetta TDI as what it'd get in the US.

 

To do that, we'd need to have a Jetta TDI that met US crash specs, and was tested under EPA guidelines. Enter the US Jetta TDI. The US Jetta TDI is EPA rated at 40mpg highway. Comparing the EU Jetta TDI, converted to US gallons, and the US Jetta TDI, we can see that to meet US safety and emission requirements, the Jetta TDI took a 18.45% hit on highway mpg to meet US safety and emissions specs.

 

So, after converting from Imperial to US gallons, there's a 18.45% hit on the highway mpg number to meet US safety and emissions specs.

 

Lets see what that does to a, oh, UK Ford Fiesta:

 

1.6L diesel, 78.5mpg (Imperial). 78.5 Imperial gets us 65.37mpg (US). There's still US safety and emissions factor in there though, so that number could not be used. To get close though, and since VW somehow found a way to do it, we can get an idea of what the US version would get. So we take 65.37, multiply by 0.81549439347604485219164118246687 (hey, I had it in the Clipboard), and we get:

 

53.31mpg highway.

 

This would be the estimated number a US Fiesta, that meets US safety and emissions requirements, and is in US gallons, would get on the highway.

 

I'm not sure where they're getting 40mpg, but, either they're way off in their numbers, or, VW has F'ing way better engineers working for them.

 

Imagine what sales Ford could have had, had they had a 50mpg car when gas was 4.something a gallon.......think about that.....

 

Chuck

[battyr]

The reason the Jetta TDI comes up is it's the only affordable diesel car in the US, that's also sold in the EU. So it's really the only example that can be used.

 

To take the difference in gallons out, as previously stated, one must multiply by .8327 So, just to get the EU Jetta TDI into comparable US gallons, you'd need to take the EU highway rating (58.9mpg) and multiply be .8327, which gets it to 49.05mpg.

 

Also as already noted, this only gets the EU Jetta TDI to a highway mpg devised under the EU emissions testing, plus it's done on a Jetta TDI from the EU, so the safety specs differ as well. This is why one cannot use the 49.05mpg highway number of the EU Jetta TDI as what it'd get in the US.

 

To do that, we'd need to have a Jetta TDI that met US crash specs, and was tested under EPA guidelines. Enter the US Jetta TDI. The US Jetta TDI is EPA rated at 40mpg highway. Comparing the EU Jetta TDI, converted to US gallons, and the US Jetta TDI, we can see that to meet US safety and emission requirements, the Jetta TDI took a 18.45% hit on highway mpg to meet US safety and emissions specs.

 

So, after converting from Imperial to US gallons, there's a 18.45% hit on the highway mpg number to meet US safety and emissions specs.

 

Lets see what that does to a, oh, UK Ford Fiesta:

 

1.6L diesel, 78.5mpg (Imperial). 78.5 Imperial gets us 65.37mpg (US). There's still US safety and emissions factor in there though, so that number could not be used. To get close though, and since VW somehow found a way to do it, we can get an idea of what the US version would get. So we take 65.37, multiply by 0.81549439347604485219164118246687 (hey, I had it in the Clipboard), and we get:

 

53.31mpg highway.

 

This would be the estimated number a US Fiesta, that meets US safety and emissions requirements, and is in US gallons, would get on the highway.

 

I'm not sure where they're getting 40mpg, but, either they're way off in their numbers, or, VW has F'ing way better engineers working for them.

 

Imagine what sales Ford could have had, had they had a 50mpg car when gas was 4.something a gallon.......think about that.....

 

Chuck

 

With American emissions, the engine may only be producing 80 hp. Put in a much bigger engine. Diesels may have torque, but they don't have power, nor a flat torque curve. What would be the mpg with a 1.8 L? 2.0 L?

[chucky2]

With American emissions, the engine may only be producing 80 hp. Put in a much bigger engine. Diesels may have torque, but they don't have power, nor a flat torque curve. What would be the mpg with a 1.8 L? 2.0 L?

 

The Jetta TDI is the same engine size, same power numbers, in the EU and US variants. Providing Ford can engineer as well as VW, and given Ford's first class diesels in EU, they can, then it's the same.

 

Chuck

[rmc523]

So, in summary, we have learned that:

 

1) England is not the US, and the US is not England

2) There is only one Jetta TDI available in the US

3) Gallon sizes are different in the US and England

4) Emissions regulations are different in the US and England

5) The EPA driving cycle is different in the US, from England

6) Diesel fuel has a major price disadvantage to gasoline, in the US

7) Jelly will read this, understand nothing, and still continue to spew the same BS over and over.

 

Hopefully I covered everything............... in a remarkably simple way................... so that Jelly might finally understand why things are how they are, "way over here."

 

PS, probably not. :rolleyes:

 

That looks about right, although I think only #7 will end up happening.

[03 LS]

Why are you guys so hard on Jelly? MF lied, plain and simple. To put it nicely, he misinformed people about misinformation. Here's his quote,

A: Great question — and another key topic where misinformation swayed public opinion. The Fiesta we currently sell in Europe is, in fact, very fuel efficient. So is the one we’ll deliver in North America in early 2010. A key point, however, is that between the conversion from Imperial gallons to the U.S. equivalent and the drive cycle the EU uses to asseess vehicle fuel efficiency, the actual mileage of our ECOnetic Fiesta is just over 40 mpg.

He wasn't talking about how a "federalized" diesel fiesta would have faired in EPA testing, he was talking about current EU Econetic Fiesta would be "just over 40mpg" under EPA testing. That's simply not true. Since Ford is not releasing the number, we can only take "educated" guess:

1. Using Jetta TDI as model, Chucky2 got 53.31mpg for Fiesta;

2. Using Prius highway number, 56.3 vs. 45, I got 52.25mpg (btw, I used Chuck's 78mgG, Jelly's 88.3mpG will yield even higher number - 58+).

Either way, it's way more than MF's 40.

 

What you guys are saying, diesel to pass emmission is too expensive, diesel is too expensive, Econetic is too expensive, diesel has bad rap in US, Econetic will be gutless in US, federalize Fiesta will add weight and reduce mpg, etc, are all valid reasons of why not to bring Econectic Fiesta to US, BUT, that's not what MF was talking about. He wasn't telling the trueth, simple as that.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

While I applaud the work of using the Jetta Tdi as a proxy for the Econetic Fiesta for estimating the mileage, we still haven't controlled the Jetta Tdi completely:

 

1) Is the US Jetta Tdi and the most comparable EU model tuned in the same manner (is the US model tuned more for throttle response and the US driving environment vs. the EU version that may be tuned for more efficiency)?

2) Gearing, is the EU Jetta stick geared to the same ratios as the US version?

3) EPA and EU drive cycles are somewhat different, how do you control for differences between how the two vehicles respond to the different cycles. Perhaps the Fiesta Econetic looses a bit more to the US highway cycle. It is more underpowered by US standards than the Jetta and thusly will likely be operating in a possibly more inefficient manner than the EU Jetta.

 

While it may not account for the whole of the issues that seperate MArk Fields number with what we commonly believe it should be, I think that it can be definitely be said that the US experience of a Fiesta EcoNetic will be vastly different than what the European experience is. It won't get anywhere near 70+ US mpg, and likely won't be much above 47-48 mpg unless driven at 56 mph in a straight line for an extended period of time. That being said, with a Fusion Hybrid on the market that is certified at 41+ mpg in the city, using a markedly less expenive fuel, why would you want the Fiesta in the US anyway?

[chucky2]

While I applaud the work of using the Jetta Tdi as a proxy for the Econetic Fiesta for estimating the mileage, we still haven't controlled the Jetta Tdi completely:

 

1) Is the US Jetta Tdi and the most comparable EU model tuned in the same manner (is the US model tuned more for throttle response and the US driving environment vs. the EU version that may be tuned for more efficiency)?

2) Gearing, is the EU Jetta stick geared to the same ratios as the US version?

3) EPA and EU drive cycles are somewhat different, how do you control for differences between how the two vehicles respond to the different cycles. Perhaps the Fiesta Econetic looses a bit more to the US highway cycle. It is more underpowered by US standards than the Jetta and thusly will likely be operating in a possibly more inefficient manner than the EU Jetta.

 

While it may not account for the whole of the issues that seperate MArk Fields number with what we commonly believe it should be, I think that it can be definitely be said that the US experience of a Fiesta EcoNetic will be vastly different than what the European experience is. It won't get anywhere near 70+ US mpg, and likely won't be much above 47-48 mpg unless driven at 56 mph in a straight line for an extended period of time. That being said, with a Fusion Hybrid on the market that is certified at 41+ mpg in the city, using a markedly less expenive fuel, why would you want the Fiesta in the US anyway?

 

I can't answer your #1, really only VW could.

 

As for your #2, I used the auto trans numbers, as that's what most people in the US prefer.

 

For #3, that is taken into account in my calculation, when I take the EU 49.05 highway number (corrected for Imperial to US gallons), and compare it to the US 40mpg highway number. That number is, obviously, the EPA rated US Jetta TDI highway number, which is done under the US EPS testing standard, on a Jetta TDI that must meet US safety specs; and the EU Jetta TDI likewise under the EU systems/reg's.

 

Comparing those two numbers is completely valid.

 

The real lesson here is that:

 

1.) VW and Mercedes made it work.

2.) Ford could have made it work, had they not been making excuses.

3.) We could have Ford very high mileage clean diesel in the US market for the past couple of years.

4.) Given #3, Ford would have enjoyed what I'm sure few will argue as Sold Out status of those high mpg offerings had they actually had them when gas was $4.something/gal.

5.) Ford continues to perpetuate the lie with "only 40mpg" misinformation.

6.) The US consumer has been denied a superior option because of bias/incompetence/and who knows, collusion with Big Oil.

7.) Hybrids absolutely have a place, especially and primarily with people who do short trip and city driving.

8.) The end.

 

Chuck