Sea Ice Ends Year at Same Level as 1979

[RangerM]

Link to article.

 

Thanks to a rapid rebound in recent months, global sea ice levels now equal those seen 29 years ago, when the year 1979 also drew to a close.

 

Ice levels had been tracking lower throughout much of 2008, but rapidly recovered in the last quarter. In fact, the rate of increase from September onward is the fastest rate of change on record, either upwards or downwards.

 

The data is being reported by the University of Illinois's Arctic Climate Research Center, and is derived from satellite observations of the Northern and Southern hemisphere polar regions.

 

Each year, millions of square kilometers of sea ice melt and refreeze. However, the mean ice anomaly -- defined as the seasonally-adjusted difference between the current value and the average from 1979-2000, varies much more slowly. That anomaly now stands at just under zero, a value identical to one recorded at the end of 1979, the year satellite record-keeping began.

 

Sea ice is floating and, unlike the massive ice sheets anchored to bedrock in Greenland and Antarctica, doesn't affect ocean levels. However, due to its transient nature, sea ice responds much faster to changes in temperature or precipitation and is therefore a useful barometer of changing conditions.

 

Earlier this year, predictions were rife that the North Pole could melt entirely in 2008. Instead, the Arctic ice saw a substantial recovery. Bill Chapman, a researcher with the UIUC's Arctic Center, tells DailyTech this was due in part to colder temperatures in the region. Chapman says wind patterns have also been weaker this year. Strong winds can slow ice formation as well as forcing ice into warmer waters where it will melt.

 

Why were predictions so wrong? Researchers had expected the newer sea ice, which is thinner, to be less resilient and melt easier. Instead, the thinner ice had less snow cover to insulate it from the bitterly cold air, and therefore grew much faster than expected, according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center.

 

In May, concerns over disappearing sea ice led the U.S. to officially list the polar bear a threatened species, over objections from experts who claimed the animal's numbers were increasing.

[stephenhawkings]

cool or cold!

http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/..._timeseries.png

 

http://grace.jpl.nasa.gov/news/index.cfm?F...ws&NewsID=6

Edited January 2, 2009 by stephenhawkings

[RangerM]

cool or cold!

 

http://grace.jpl.nasa.gov/news/index.cfm?F...ws&NewsID=6

 

Greenland is losing ice at a rate of about 62 cubic miles per year.

 

It contains 1,771,000 cubic miles of ice.

 

Be sure to say, "I told you so" in about 28,500 years.

 

I'm sure I'll care then about as much as I do now.

Edited January 2, 2009 by RangerM

[mikem12]

Greenland is losing ice at a rate of about 62 cubic miles per year.

 

It contains 1,771,000 cubic miles of ice.

 

Be sure to say, "I told you so" in about 28,500 years.

 

I'm sure I'll care then about as much as I do now.

 

according to the scientific clubs we have been actualy cooling off for the last 10 years. Hey, we should jump on the Gore doomsayer machine just after he tells us how he invented the internet. This whole movement is a sham. But it will make Gore, Pickens, Pelose and a lot more politicians rich if we let them continue.

[RangerM]

according to the scientific clubs we have been actualy cooling off for the last 10 years. Hey, we should jump on the Gore doomsayer machine just after he tells us how he invented the internet. This whole movement is a sham. But it will make Gore, Pickens, Pelose and a lot more politicians rich if we let them continue.

 

Even worse, one of Gore's chief scientific shills has even advocated for carbon taxes (to counter MMGW) because of it's "progressive" taxation (ie tax the rich), and using the proceeds to pay for welfare.

 

Apparently MMGW can be used to redistribute the wealth, too. Remember, it's "good for America". (Where have we heard THAT before?)

 

His name is James Hansen (wiki article). He is the chief scientist at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (at NASA).

 

Here is an excerpt of a letter he wrote to Barack Obama:

 

29 December 2008

 

Michelle and Barack Obama

Chicago and Washington, D.C.

United States of America

 

Dear Michelle and Barack,

 

We write to you as fellow parents concerned about the Earth that will be inherited by our children, grandchildren, and those yet to be born.

 

Barack has spoken of "a planet in peril" and noted that actions needed to stem climate change have other merits. However, the nature of the chosen actions will be of crucial importance....

 

...A rising price on carbon emissions is the essential underlying support needed to make all other climate policies work........A rising carbon price is the one practical way to obtain compliance with codes designed to increase energy efficiency.

 

A rising carbon price is essential to “decarbonize” the economy.........The most effective way to achieve this is a carbon tax (on oil, gas, and coal) at the well-head or port of entry. The tax will then appropriately affect all products and activities that use fossil fuels.........

 

The public will support the tax if it is returned to them, equal shares on a per capita basis........A person reducing his carbon footprint more than average makes money. A person with large cars and a big house will pay a tax much higher than the dividend..........

 

....A carbon tax is honest, clear and effective. It will increase energy prices, but low and middle income people, especially, will find ways to reduce carbon emissions so as to come out ahead.......

 

The carbon tax has social benefits. It is progressive. It is useful to those most in need in hard times, providing them an opportunity for larger dividend than tax........

 

"Cap and trade" generates special interests, lobbyists, and trading schemes, yielding non productive millionaires, all at public expense. The public is fed up with such business. Tax with 100% dividend, in contrast, would spur our economy, while aiding the disadvantaged, the climate, and our national security.

 

Science isn't supposed to have social agenda (see: Eugenics).

 

Makes me want to puke.

Edited January 3, 2009 by RangerM

[Trimdingman]

Even worse, one of Gore's chief scientific shills has even advocated for carbon taxes (to counter MMGW) because of it's "progressive" taxation (ie tax the rich), and using the proceeds to pay for welfare.

 

Apparently MMGW can be used to redistribute the wealth, too. Remember, it's "good for America". (Where have we heard THAT before?)

 

His name is James Hansen (wiki article). He is the chief scientist at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (at NASA).

 

Here is an excerpt of a letter he wrote to Barack Obama:

 

 

 

Science isn't supposed to have social agenda (see: Eugenics).

 

Makes me want to puke.

 

 

We need to do away with this shit, not bring it on. Eugenics really fucked up my people, the Mi'qmac. The government tried to wipe us out, and almost succeeded. The ones who were left didn't have much self-esteem, to say the least. Think about people on welfare. They accept the handouts, but what do their kids think? Their kids feel inferior, and a whole underclass of people is created. People need to know that they are just as capable as anyone else, because they are. They will see it once they try. It takes generations to get back pride, once it is broken. If you are constantly being pushed this way and that way by a higher authority, you come to think less and less of yourself, and are quick to bow down. It is time to do away with 99% of government.

 

Say no to carbon tax. Say no to religion. Say no to slave wages. Say no to collective government programs. Say no to any new tax, and demand tax cuts. Let everybody advance on his own merit, and be tolerant and respectful of different cultures, even if they are violent towards one another. Living among you was not their choice.

 

You can't fix the damage that has been done, but you can change the future.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Trimdingman

[jpd80]

Interesting thing about floating ice, check this out next time you have a drink:

When Ice melts, the liquid level does not change.

 

Ice floats because it is less dense than water, when it melts it becomes more dense

and replaces the space occupied within the liquid or more simply, the level doesn't change!

 

Places like Antartica have huge fresh water ice sitting on the continent - now that different

and will cause a problem if it melts.

 

Lowering man made CO2 is good for the planet but I do not accept we are at any imminent tipping point.

I think a lot of scientists eager for grants, overstated the effect of CO2 and are now afraid to recant

in fear that they will be ridiculed and their whole work dismissed. Guess we'll see in 20 years time.

[Trimdingman]

Interesting thing about floating ice, check this out next time you have a drink:

When Ice melts, the liquid level does not change.

 

Ice floats because it is less dense than water, when it melts it becomes more dense

and replaces the space occupied within the liquid or more simply, the level doesn't change!

 

Places like Antartica have huge fresh water ice sitting on the continent - now that different

and will cause a problem if it melts.

 

Lowering man made CO2 is good for the planet but I do not accept we are at any imminent tipping point.

I think a lot of scientists eager for grants, overstated the effect of CO2 and are now afraid to recant

in fear that they will be ridiculed and their whole work dismissed. Guess we'll see in 20 years time.

 

 

There is over 19 million cubic miles of ice. If it all melts, anything less than about 200 feet above sea level will be wet. There is about 1/8th of one cubic mile of people. We are not going to make a dent in 19,000,000 cubic miles of ice with our puny CO2 output. The only thing that can melt the ice is the sun, and we can't control that with carbon taxes. There is a better chance if you sculpt a Sun God and pray to it, and that would make more sense, also, as long as you don't ask for tax "offerings" to it.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Trimdingman

[stephenhawkings]

Interesting thing about floating ice, check this out next time you have a drink:

When Ice melts, the liquid level does not change.

 

Ice floats because it is less dense than water, when it melts it becomes more dense

and replaces the space occupied within the liquid or more simply, the level doesn't change!

 

Places like Antartica have huge fresh water ice sitting on the continent - now that different

and will cause a problem if it melts.

 

Lowering man made CO2 is good for the planet but I do not accept we are at any imminent tipping point.

I think a lot of scientists eager for grants, overstated the effect of CO2 and are now afraid to recant

in fear that they will be ridiculed and their whole work dismissed. Guess we'll see in 20 years time.

 

ice floats because it is less dense than water!

[fmorriso]

We need to do away with this shit, not bring it on. Eugenics really fucked up my people, the Mi'qmac. The government tried to wipe us out, and almost succeeded. The ones who were left didn't have much self-esteem, to say the least. Think about people on welfare. They accept the handouts, but what do their kids think? Their kids feel inferior, and a whole underclass of people is created. People need to know that they are just as capable as anyone else, because they are. They will see it once they try. It takes generations to get back pride, once it is broken. If you are constantly being pushed this way and that way by a higher authority, you come to think less and less of yourself, and are quick to bow down. It is time to do away with 99% of government.

 

Say no to carbon tax. Say no to religion. Say no to slave wages. Say no to collective government programs. Say no to any new tax, and demand tax cuts. Let everybody advance on his own merit, and be tolerant and respectful of different cultures, even if they are violent towards one another. Living among you was not their choice.

 

You can't fix the damage that has been done, but you can change the future.

Finally, an intelligent person of color (my assumption - correct me if I'm wrong) that has figured out "it's OK to leave the plantation" of liberal government programs that are nothing more than a modern form of "share cropping" designed to keep people of color in their place, at the bottom of the economic ladder.

 

Please tell me there are others out there with similar smarts.

[jpd80]

ice floats because it is less dense than water!

That's what I said, read my post.

[Trimdingman]

Finally, an intelligent person of color (my assumption - correct me if I'm wrong) that has figured out "it's OK to leave the plantation" of liberal government programs that are nothing more than a modern form of "share cropping" designed to keep people of color in their place, at the bottom of the economic ladder.

 

Please tell me there are others out there with similar smarts.

 

 

[i have enough Aboriginal roots to have a status card, but I have white skin and blue eyes.]

 

The Trojans also fell for a "gift" from the Greeks.

 

If you accept charity you are admitting inferiority. It is better to bear some suffering and keep your self-respect.

 

[i don't pay PST, but I do not regard money that I prevent the government from robbing from me as charity.]

Edited January 4, 2009 by Trimdingman

[stephenhawkings]

That's what I said, read my post.

yes but ice isn't the same density as water its less dense, a unique situtation(shaped molecule) in the physical world, when water freezes it expands.

[RangerM]

yes but ice isn't the same density as water its less dense, a unique situtation(shaped molecule) in the physical world, when water freezes it expands.

 

Did you even read jpd80's post?

[jpd80]

yes but ice isn't the same density as water its less dense, a unique situtation(shaped molecule) in the physical world, when water freezes it expands.

 

Let's look at my original post:

 

Interesting thing about floating ice, check this out next time you have a drink:

When Ice melts, the liquid level does not change.

 

Ice floats because it is less dense than water, when it melts it becomes more dense

and replaces the space occupied within the liquid or more simply, the level doesn't change!

 

Now, what were you saying?

[retro-man]

Sea Ice also does not change the salinity of the oceans - the only thing the presence or absence of sea ice affects is the planet's albedo. Glacial ice is more of a problem.

[stephenhawkings]

Interesting thing about floating ice, check this out next time you have a drink:

When Ice melts, the liquid level does not change.

 

Ice floats because it is less dense than water, when it melts it becomes more dense

and replaces the space occupied within the liquid or more simply, the level doesn't change!

 

Places like Antartica have huge fresh water ice sitting on the continent - now that different

and will cause a problem if it melts.

 

Lowering man made CO2 is good for the planet but I do not accept we are at any imminent tipping point.

I think a lot of scientists eager for grants, overstated the effect of CO2 and are now afraid to recant

in fear that they will be ridiculed and their whole work dismissed. Guess we'll see in 20 years time.

 

the level doesn't change even though density does?

it might be such a small change that your not seeing it in your cocktail glass, but the level does change it drops, which is contrary to goresque witch doctor flood scenerio.

 

once again ice less dense more volume, water more dense less volume.

[NickF1011]

the level doesn't change even though density does?

it might be such a small change that your not seeing it in your cocktail glass, but the level does change it drops, which is contrary to goresque witch doctor flood scenerio.

 

once again ice less dense more volume, water more dense less volume.

 

Well, much of the expected rise in water level isn't from sea ice, but from glacial ice which, when melted, mostly all ends up in the ocean eventually. Not saying it's going to happen, but it's one thing to consider if you are analyzing a predicted rise in ocean levels due to melting.

[stephenhawkings]

it's also possible the wster could go in to the air and we could experience increased cloud cover and some global cooling.

[NickF1011]

it's also possible the wster could go in to the air and we could experience increased cloud cover and some global cooling.

 

That is certainly a valid theory also in most circles. It really comes down to us not having nearly enough data to come to any solid conclusions at this point, which is why I find it ludicrous to be acting the way we are about it.

[akirby]

the level doesn't change even though density does?

it might be such a small change that your not seeing it in your cocktail glass, but the level does change it drops, which is contrary to goresque witch doctor flood scenerio.

 

once again ice less dense more volume, water more dense less volume.

 

Wrong. Ice has more volume than water (about 9% more) but it has the same weight (mass), therefore it displaces the same amount of water.

 

Warmer temperatures will melt more ice and it may cause a slight increase in sea volume but that's due strictly to expansion of the sea water due to the temperature increase and not caused by the melting ice.

 

Freshwater/ground ice is a different story, but we're talking about sea ice here.

[matthewq4b]

That is certainly a valid theory also in most circles. It really comes down to us not having nearly enough data to come to any solid conclusions at this point, which is why I find it ludicrous to be acting the way we are about it.

 

 

Uh not quite. Water vapour is the biggest green house gas.

Cloud cover holds heat in. Yes you do not get the thermal gain during the day. But you also get way way

less thermal loss at night.

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

Uh not quite. Water vapour is the biggest green house gas.

Cloud cover holds heat in. Yes you do not get the thermal gain during the day. But you also get way way

less thermal loss at night.

 

 

Matthew

 

Depends how much water vapor you are talking about. Enough water vapor and you get rain, which has extremely powerful cooling effects. The more cloud cover you have, the more likely you will have more rain also.

[stephenhawkings]

er thats wht i typed

[streetline51]

Well now it seems we have another [problem] . Extreme Alaska cold grounds planes, disables cars. I hope oh Al is stuck up there .

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_...ka_extreme_cold