Wanderinglost Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-0...otiations_N.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hard Driver Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) I saw that. Where are the loudmouths that say other governments are not helping their industries?! Japan understands that they need their manufacturing base...especially to kick our asses if there is ever a war. Many of our sorry leaders (and their brainless followers) won't grasp this until it's too late...then you wont hear from them :gang: Same story: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/18840531/detail.html Edited March 3, 2009 by Hard Driver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem12 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I saw that. Where are the loudmouths that say other governments are not helping their industries?! Japan understands that they need their manufacturing base...especially to kick our asses if there is ever a war. Many of our sorry leaders (and their brainless followers) won't grasp this until it's too late...then you wont hear from them :gang: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/18840531/detail.html oh you'll hear from them but they will be speaking Japanese, chinese and now of late since Bama shrank before Putin most likely Russian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) I saw that. Where are the loudmouths that say other governments are not helping their industries?! Japan understands that they need their manufacturing base...especially to kick our asses if there is ever a war. Many of our sorry leaders (and their brainless followers) won't grasp this until it's too late...then you wont hear from them :gang: Same story: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/18840531/detail.html If you don't think the our politicians are getting kick backs in their personal finances for helping to dismantle the UAW, then you are crazy. It was never about whether or not they were going to give the auto industry money, it was about how they could do it while getting a personal return off of spending government money! Edited March 3, 2009 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-0...otiations_N.htmI'm enjoying the irony in this, but technically it's not Toyota borrowing the money, it's Toyota Financial, their equivalent of Ford Motor Credit. That said, I'm sitting back, enjoying the irony in this. Couldn't be happening to a more deserving group of bastards. Hey, Corker, did you see this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillSing Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 If this isnt the evidence we all need to vote down these damn concessions i dont know what it will take . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 If this isnt the evidence we all need to vote down these damn concessions i dont know what it will take .What kind of freaking logic is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillSing Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 What kind of freaking logic is that? Some would call it common sense. But maybe you need help with that . Lets see , we are in talks to give wage concessions to be competitive with the foreign automakers . Yet the foreign automakers who have less labor costs than Ford also need aid . They need aid ahead of Ford who hasnt asked for any government money . So kind of makes the asking for concessions to be competitive arguement Nil . That easy enough for you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenp77 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Read post #5, toyota automotive is still the richest auto maker on the planet, but that said they are also burning through cash and they are not relying on trucks to keep them afloat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Some would call it common sense. But maybe you need help with that .Lets see , we are in talks to give wage concessions to be competitive with the foreign automakers . Yet the foreign automakers who have less labor costs than Ford also need aid . They need aid ahead of Ford who hasnt asked for any government money . So kind of makes the asking for concessions to be competitive arguement Nil . That easy enough for you ? That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. The labor costs they're taking in Washington is talking about is U.S. assembly plants. Toyota Financial borrowing money to finance cars is irrelevant to the discussion of labor costs. GMAC getting bailout money hasn't affected GM's decision on asking for money from the TARP, not whether they needed to ask for the money, nor how much. Secondly, the only reason Ford hasn't asked for money YET is that they mortgaged everything, including some trademarks, two years ago to get cash. Now the banks aren't loaning money out. And Ford not asking for money so far is dependent on sales. February's numbers came in - down by almost half. Not looking good. Forecast for a turnaround in the second half of the year was the basis for saying "We won't be asking for any federal loans". That forecast is now out the window. Now "We won't be asking for any federal loans" is partially based on this contract passing, and if any of the "no" crowd weren't so fucking shortsighted, they'd realize that. Let me spell this out for you in language you can understand. One way or the other, concessions are going to be forced on the union. Ford has already said they expect pattern bargaining to remain in effect, to be competitive. That means whatever GM & Chrysler negotiate, Ford expects the same exact thing, almost immediately, so that neither GM nor Chrysler get a competitive advantage over Ford. The International knows this. They also know that pattern bargaining can be a bitch both ways. If this passes at Ford, it makes nearly impossible for GM & Chrysler (and the Congressional gas bags in D.C.) to demand more. Pattern bargaining. You're going to get screwed anyway. Either this now, or even more if GM & Chrysler get the first punch in. It's that simple, and there's a nothing you can do about it. Vote it down, GM & Chrysler step up, get even more cuts under the heavy hammer of the federal loan requirements, and then they come back to Ford, with Ford demanding that pattern bargaining and remaining competitive with GM & Chrysler demands that Ford gets the same. Either establish the pattern NOW, or it gets established even harsher and forced on you later. At the very least, Ford can go beg for a small loan, to make the concessions a loan requirement, and then the pattern gets forced on you anyway. This is bleed some now, or hemorrhage even more later, in less than a month. GM & Chrysler have to, and I mean have to, get this done by the end of this month, March 31. PERIOD. Toyota Financial getting a loan from Japan means nothing. It's just amusing to see the darling of the Detroit critics have to ask for money, too, but it means shit regarding this concessionary contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecilmeyer Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. The labor costs they're taking in Washington is talking about is U.S. assembly plants. Toyota Financial borrowing money to finance cars is irrelevant to the discussion of labor costs. GMAC getting bailout money hasn't affected GM's decision on asking for money from the TARP, not whether they needed to ask for the money, nor how much. Secondly, the only reason Ford hasn't asked for money YET is that they mortgaged everything, including some trademarks, two years ago to get cash. Now the banks aren't loaning money out. And Ford not asking for money so far is dependent on sales. February's numbers came in - down by almost half. Not looking good. Forecast for a turnaround in the second half of the year was the basis for saying "We won't be asking for any federal loans". That forecast is now out the window. Now "We won't be asking for any federal loans" is partially based on this contract passing, and if any of the "no" crowd weren't so fucking shortsighted, they'd realize that. Let me spell this out for you in language you can understand. One way or the other, concessions are going to be forced on the union. Ford has already said they expect pattern bargaining to remain in effect, to be competitive. That means whatever GM & Chrysler negotiate, Ford expects the same exact thing, almost immediately, so that neither GM nor Chrysler get a competitive advantage over Ford. The International knows this. They also know that pattern bargaining can be a bitch both ways. If this passes at Ford, it makes nearly impossible for GM & Chrysler (and the Congressional gas bags in D.C.) to demand more. Pattern bargaining. You're going to get screwed anyway. Either this now, or even more if GM & Chrysler get the first punch in. It's that simple, and there's a nothing you can do about it. Vote it down, GM & Chrysler step up, get even more cuts under the heavy hammer of the federal loan requirements, and then they come back to Ford, with Ford demanding that pattern bargaining and remaining competitive with GM & Chrysler demands that Ford gets the same. Either establish the pattern NOW, or it gets established even harsher and forced on you later. At the very least, Ford can go beg for a small loan, to make the concessions a loan requirement, and then the pattern gets forced on you anyway. This is bleed some now, or hemorrhage even more later, in less than a month. GM & Chrysler have to, and I mean have to, get this done by the end of this month, March 31. PERIOD. Toyota Financial getting a loan from Japan means nothing. It's just amusing to see the darling of the Detroit critics have to ask for money, too, but it means shit regarding this concessionary contact. So what does it matter who goes first?You think because Ford goes first,GM will go along with our agreement?Ford workers will vote this in and then when GM declares bankruptcy or gets even more concessions you do not think Ford is coming right back to us crying they cannot be compete so they have to have what GM got?If you vote for this agreement you are a fool.Ford will not honor this agreement anymore than the one we signed in 2007.So just keep giving and giving and see where it gets us.I say we give them nothing.Our concessions are not going to keep Ford out of bankruptcy.One last thing why should we give any concessions why they are steadily investing more and more money in Mexico,Canada,China and Europe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordguy61mi Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 That's funny, I read the whole article and not once did I see anything about the government demanding bullshit concessions from the workers in exchange for government financial aid. Crazy, isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoardpm Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 That's funny, I read the whole article and not once did I see anything about the government demanding bullshit concessions from the workers in exchange for government financial aid. Crazy, isn't it. But, the problem is they are borrowing money from the Japanees government not ours. So our government will not ask them for concessions. They seem to have a more supportive government and general public. Our general public hates us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpc655 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-0...otiations_N.htm wrong forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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