Fobres: The Most Reliable Cars For 2006

[robertlane]

CLICK FOR THE ARTICLE

[OAC Lineman]

And North Americans are listening :tequila:

[swenson88]

CLICK FOR THE ARTICLE

 

I just wish for once an American car could make a list like this. Why is it so hard? Is it penny-pinching? Corner-cutting? Slackers on the assembly line? Poor engineering? I really don't believe it's just media bias because I know too many people know that own both American and Japanese vehicles and the Japanese ones kick the American vehicles' butts in reliability overall. Some day . . . sigh . . .

[swenson88]

How can an all new RAV4 be considered reliable when it is "all-new"? Wouldn't it take time to prove reliability.

 

What a frakkin joke.

 

Or the Lexus IS, or GS for that matter. This is one of the reasons I hope Ford stops changing names on vehicles - long-term reputation. Every time you start with a new nameplate you are starting from scratch when it comes to public perception. Civic, Accord, Corolla, Camry - these are names that have survived decades. Aside from their trucks and the Corvette and Mustang (and the Panthers), are there any other domestic nameplates that have survived for 20 or so years?

[ford-boy]

This is a prime example of making a mountain out of a mole hill. From EVERY SINGLE comparison of initial quality or long term reliability, American cars are within spitting distance of toy/honda/nissan. And as was observed on Autoweek tv show recently, how does the average consumer tell the difference between 115 defexcts per 100 vehicles and 108 defects pe100 vehicles. When differences get down to TENTHS of a defect you can be sure the media, and in particular, FORBES, will make it look HUGE. It is pure media hype.

[Hugh]

It is the most reliable cars for 2006. I think that means 'all-new', but some of those cars (e.g. Corolla) have an established name.

I agree that is is blown-up media hype over a tenth of a hundred.

[marc-o]

This is a prime example of making a mountain out of a mole hill. From EVERY SINGLE comparison of initial quality or long term reliability, American cars are within spitting distance of toy/honda/nissan. And as was observed on Autoweek tv show recently, how does the average consumer tell the difference between 115 defexcts per 100 vehicles and 108 defects pe100 vehicles. When differences get down to TENTHS of a defect you can be sure the media, and in particular, FORBES, will make it look HUGE. It is pure media hype.

 

Problem is why jump ship to something that consumers have (in the past) been satisfied with when the competition offers such a similar reliability ratings? Besides, lots of those defects can include rattles and squeaks, or wind noise or fuel consumption. Are those the kinds of problems that would stop someone from plunking down 30 grand for a car? Apparently not, at least not for most people.

 

Regarding all the all-new vehicles on that list, I'd assume they are using projected reliability ratings of some sort.

 

Still, that "article" read like a big advertisement. Totally one-sided.

[troythetroll]

Still, that "article" read like a big advertisement. Totally one-sided.

 

I have to admit to being a long time lurker, but this particular thread brought me out of the woodwork. While I have to admit that the quality numbers and methodology used to designate one car over another are perhaps debatable, and might actually be biased against the domestics, I believe there are reasonable and fair explanations for this. Like 20 years of historical precedent for starters.

 

I also beleive that most of the automotive press would just PEE themselves to be able to honestly proclaim a domestic model as the latest and greatest and most reliable and a world beater. The problem is....the domestics won't build that car for them, so they can't.

 

I am one of those people that Ford needs. For the 80's and 90's I ignored domestic products, with examples of Chrysler K cars and my buddies GM products matched against my moms cheapo Dodge Colt ( Mitsubishi ) and how THEIR cars failed and moms didn't. This continued into the new millenia, and then, one day, outta the blue, I decided to purchase domestic. Ford domestic, for specific reasons. Those reasons were very similar to some of the arguments being used here. I decided after 2 decades of imports that I would give Ford a try.

 

So one day I committed $35G's into 2 new Fords, one a nice convertible Mustang GT and a little red Ranger for myself. Brand new. Bought them within 60 days of each other.

 

75,000 miles later, 8 warranty repairs between them, some big, some small, and more problems on the horizon, I dumped them both. One for an American built Camry and the other for a Montero Limited. Those two vehicles have since gone 55K miles with no visits to the dealer.

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

The magazines and periodicals and surveys might say that this vehicle is only a little worse off than that one, and one brand is improving more than another, but as long as people who give Fords a try run into the kind of problems I experienced, toyota is gonna take over the world.

 

I'm not looking for a flame war here, I am just stating what happened when one import diehard believed that the domestics were doing better in 2001....and learned his lesson the hard way.

 

And I really, really, want one of those F150 SuperCrews....want it so bad I can taste it. Went and got a Titan instead. A vehicle which Consumer Reports bashes pretty hard I might add. But personal experience with Ford trumps the specific beefs that Consumer Reports has with the Missouri Nissan plant. I hate to admit it, but the sour taste I've got for domestics is good for another decade...maybe two. Then, if it looks like they've gotten their act together, well, MAYBE I'll think about it. I'm guessing they ( Ford and GM ) won't even be around then, at least not in their current form.

Edited April 27, 2006 by troythetroll

[kevinb120]

This is a prime example of making a mountain out of a mole hill. From EVERY SINGLE comparison of initial quality or long term reliability, American cars are within spitting distance of toy/honda/nissan. And as was observed on Autoweek tv show recently, how does the average consumer tell the difference between 115 defexcts per 100 vehicles and 108 defects pe100 vehicles. When differences get down to TENTHS of a defect you can be sure the media, and in particular, FORBES, will make it look HUGE. It is pure media hype.

 

 

Agree 100%. Reliability is almost a non-issue with cars these days. The difference between the perfect red dot and the black dot in CR can be something like one check engine light over a couple years. I remember the days when it got hot outside you would see 3 breakdowns every couple miles, now its nitpicking. Stupid article with several new models only 5-7 months old making the list. Its nothing but favoratisim for the advertising dollar and the media's anti-American obsession.

[hoss96racing]

part of the reason for the reliabilty of the jap cars is that not only has the name stayed the same but for the most part the cars have stayed the same.. with continuos improvment... now the domestics... build crap and never improve anything... when they can't sell it anymore they throw it away and start with a totally new car and a new name and no reliaility and all kinds of new problems...

[kevinb120]

Well, not exactly. They do use the same engines and platforms for decades though, and use components like switchgear for nearly 20 years without changes. They also usually release the vehicles in the home market a year to debug them before bringing them here. Ridgeline and the new Civic are two released directly into the US, and the first-year blues rival any Detroit product.

[troythetroll]

Agree 100%. Reliability is almost a non-issue with cars these days. The difference between the perfect red dot and the black dot in CR can be something like one check engine light over a couple years.

 

 

Actually, according to CR this isn't true. A three year olf domestic has as many problems as like a 12 year old Toyota. Thats a patently terrible way of expressing what "almost as good" apparently means to some people.

[llog215]

Actually, according to CR this isn't true. A three year olf domestic has as many problems as like a 12 year old Toyota. Thats a patently terrible way of expressing what "almost as good" apparently means to some people.

 

That's not true. The statistic is a 3yr old domestic is equivalent to an 8yr old Toyota, according to CR. Still not good.....

[swenson88]

That's not true. The statistic is a 3yr old domestic is equivalent to an 8yr old Toyota, according to CR. Still not good.....

 

Actually it's TERRIBLE.

[bec5150]

I have to admit to being a long time lurker, but this particular thread brought me out of the woodwork. While I have to admit that the quality numbers and methodology used to designate one car over another are perhaps debatable, and might actually be biased against the domestics, I believe there are reasonable and fair explanations for this. Like 20 years of historical precedent for starters.

 

I also beleive that most of the automotive press would just PEE themselves to be able to honestly proclaim a domestic model as the latest and greatest and most reliable and a world beater. The problem is....the domestics won't build that car for them, so they can't.

 

I am one of those people that Ford needs. For the 80's and 90's I ignored domestic products, with examples of Chrysler K cars and my buddies GM products matched against my moms cheapo Dodge Colt ( Mitsubishi ) and how THEIR cars failed and moms didn't. This continued into the new millenia, and then, one day, outta the blue, I decided to purchase domestic. Ford domestic, for specific reasons. Those reasons were very similar to some of the arguments being used here. I decided after 2 decades of imports that I would give Ford a try.

 

So one day I committed $35G's into 2 new Fords, one a nice convertible Mustang GT and a little red Ranger for myself. Brand new. Bought them within 60 days of each other.

 

75,000 miles later, 8 warranty repairs between them, some big, some small, and more problems on the horizon, I dumped them both. One for an American built Camry and the other for a Montero Limited. Those two vehicles have since gone 55K miles with no visits to the dealer.

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

The magazines and periodicals and surveys might say that this vehicle is only a little worse off than that one, and one brand is improving more than another, but as long as people who give Fords a try run into the kind of problems I experienced, toyota is gonna take over the world.

 

I'm not looking for a flame war here, I am just stating what happened when one import diehard believed that the domestics were doing better in 2001....and learned his lesson the hard way.

 

And I really, really, want one of those F150 SuperCrews....want it so bad I can taste it. Went and got a Titan instead. A vehicle which Consumer Reports bashes pretty hard I might add. But personal experience with Ford trumps the specific beefs that Consumer Reports has with the Missouri Nissan plant. I hate to admit it, but the sour taste I've got for domestics is good for another decade...maybe two. Then, if it looks like they've gotten their act together, well, MAYBE I'll think about it. I'm guessing they ( Ford and GM ) won't even be around then, at least not in their current form.

Let's see, here, where do I start.

 

1. You must have used the wrong dealer.

2. Your Camry has problems, but you ignore them because it's a Toyota.

3. Your Toyota really isn't made in America because the profits go to Japan.

4. I have a 1968 Galaxie 500 that has over 300,000 miles on it that will run over your little rice burner.

5. Last but not least, be glad your Toyota isn't a CR-V because if it was, it would most certainly spontainously combust.

 

See, there, I saved everyone from flaming this guy.

[taxman100]

Forbes is always out in left field when it comes to automobiles. However, consider the demographics of their readers - white collar workers to whom a car is a fashion accessory, and if they ever keep a car long enough, pays someone to replace the battery in their car because they don't know where it is located.

 

Forbes is a good magazine if you are into corporate raiding, insider trading, and outsourcing jobs, but lousy at automobile reviews.

[156n3rd]

Another money related rag trying to be everything to everyone. Forbes, the failed pres candidate knows all about cars. Opinons, people, just more stupid, useless, wasteful magazine BS. :titanic:

[troythetroll]

Let's see, here, where do I start.

 

1. You must have used the wrong dealer.

 

In the beginning, you were right. Then when I found the right dealer he got busy replacing the tranny and flywheel and most everything else between the motor and driveshaft. Maybe I shouldn't count those problems because the first dealer was incompetent?

 

2. Your Camry has problems, but you ignore them because it's a Toyota.

 

My Camry has problems? Well then I should take it in for repair...since I can't find anything wrong with it, would you like to mention which problems you think it has?

 

 

3. Your Toyota really isn't made in America because the profits go to Japan.

 

Tell it to the VIN number and the American workers who get paid to put it together. Better us getting the manufacturing jobs than them. And when Ford stops building its vehicles in Mexico, maybe they'll have a point. Until then, I don't see Ford expanding American manufacturing...but I see Toyota doing it.

 

4. I have a 1968 Galaxie 500 that has over 300,000 miles on it that will run over your little rice burner.

 

To bad Ford doesn't make'em like they used to. If they did, maybe they wouldn't be bleeding market share which the Asian manufacturers are gobbling up. Let alone losing billions of dollars because they can't build something to compete against some bare bones family sedan.

 

 

5. Last but not least, be glad your Toyota isn't a CR-V because if it was, it would most certainly spontainously combust.

 

I'm glad my toyota is a toyota, and doesn't combust like CR-Vs AND Fords with the live electrical wire dipped in brake fluid....

[Blueblood]

Did I click on the wrong link, all I saw was a Toyota commercial..

 

:boring:

[llog215]

Tell it to the VIN number and the American workers who get paid to put it together. Better us getting the manufacturing jobs than them. And when Ford stops building its vehicles in Mexico, maybe they'll have a point. Until then, I don't see Ford expanding American manufacturing...but I see Toyota doing it.

 

Here we go again......Ford is shrinking and Toyota is growing in North America, agreed. However, Toyota only assembles about 60% of the 2 million vehicles sold in NA, compared to Ford building 83% of the 3 million vehicles Ford sold in NA. I'll let you do the math. Secondly, there is a difference in assembling and building. Ford employs significantly more people indirectly than Toyota. I'm not trying to tell you what car to purchase just don't try to make it sound like you're doing the US workers a favor by doing so.....

[swenson88]

Here we go again......Ford is shrinking and Toyota is growing in North America, agreed. However, Toyota only assembles about 60% of the 2 million vehicles sold in NA, compared to Ford building 83% of the 3 million vehicles Ford sold in NA. I'll let you do the math. Secondly, there is a difference in assembling and building. Ford employs significantly more people indirectly than Toyota. I'm not trying to tell you what car to purchase just don't try to make it sound like you're doing the US workers a favor by doing so.....

 

I have a tough time arguing with a guy who actively tried to come back to the domestics and suffered poor quality and reliability as a result, only to end up back in an import where he was better off all along. It's stories like his that make our fight so damn tough right now. It's like my girlfriends family - her father drove domestics, primarily GM, for his whole life. In the mid 80's they bought a Toyota minivan, and since then he's never looked back and never had any of the problems he used to have with the GM's. He's owned Hondas, Toyotas, and Subarus with only basic maintenance. He got to gloat at me when the tranny blew on my 95 Bronco, when the oil pan had to be replaced because it rusted through(??!!!), when the clunk returned in my rear for the third time. Why would someone like that ever buy a domestic? He's had nothing but perfectly reliable vehicles from three different Japanese companies, some built in America some not. He's lost to the domestic auto makers, as are many, many carbuyers. It'll take decades of reliability (which Toyota and Honda have) to ever get people like him to even get a twinkle of an idea of POSSIBLY looking at buying a domestic vehicle.

[jsleesma]

I can agree with the stories--if you had lousy vehicles from GM or Ford, but great ones from Toyota, why would you switch back?

 

BUT what I HATE hearing about is Consumer Reports and their stupid quality rankings. Check out this blurb:

 

According to our latest (2005) subscriber survey, Japanese and Korean vehicles still have the fewest problems on average: 12 problems per 100 vehicles. This number, however, has held steady for the newest models since 2002, when they improved from 15 problems per 100 in the previous year. On average, Asian vehicles are by far the most reliable, but their improvement has slowed.

 

Look at those first words. "According to our SUBSCRIBER SURVEY..." As anyone who has ever done statistical work can tell you a SUBSCRIBER SURVEY CAN NEVER BE ACCURATE. Your sample size is totally unpredictible. Who returns the cards? Who SUBSCRIBES TO YOUR MAGAZINE? All this becomes not truly random, and hence is suspect.

 

An accurate survey must randomly select people from the entire population who owns that car, and it MUST interview each person selected.

 

If more import owners subscribe to CR (and I'm SURE that they do) then the sample size for import owners surveyed will be huge--leading, perhaps, to more accurate results. If fewer domestic owners subscribe, the sample size will be small--leading to drastically inaccurate results.

 

This might not be a problem except that these reliability ratings come down to 6 problems per hundred vehicles. Now, that is quite a few problems, but with such bad data, their results may not be statistically significant at that level. What that means is that the bias in their sample (the fact that only import owners subscribe to CR and, hence, get surveyed) means that they may not be able to tell you anything to that level of accuracy.

 

Also, this doesn't really explain the difference in perception. Everybody loves VW and other imports (at least where I live in Chicago) but the European cars are up at like 21 problems per 100 (by far the worst). So I wonder whether reliability is really what's causing the drive to imports.

[OAC Lineman]

What is the big conspiracy here? All I here is that reviewers are biased in their decisions. Magazines are biased. Corporations are biased. Most of these are American companies. Why are they biased against American cars? I'm not an expert by any means, but I would think that if an American car was the best in it's class, these magazines would say so. Why wouldn't they?

 

Ford, and the others need to concentrate on consistency and reliability. Not spending all their time finding an "F" name for each model. Also, like someone posted earlier, when you say Camry or Civic, people have known these cars, and their reputation for years. Besides Fords trucks, which have always been class leading, and the Mustang of course, where are Ford's namesake models? Taurus is now Fusion, or 500 which ever. Tempo went to contour, now nothing. Escort to Focus. Come out with products the public wants, and continue to build on them, we need to give ourselves this reputation of quality and reliability. If we build it, people will come.

[jsleesma]

What is the big conspiracy here? All I here is that reviewers are biased in their decisions. Magazines are biased. Corporations are biased. Most of these are American companies. Why are they biased against American cars? I'm not an expert by any means, but I would think that if an American car was the best in it's class, these magazines would say so. Why wouldn't they?

 

Ford, and the others need to concentrate on consistency and reliability. Not spending all their time finding an "F" name for each model. Also, like someone posted earlier, when you say Camry or Civic, people have known these cars, and their reputation for years. Besides Fords trucks, which have always been class leading, and the Mustang of course, where are Ford's namesake models? Taurus is now Fusion, or 500 which ever. Tempo went to contour, now nothing. Escort to Focus. Come out with products the public wants, and continue to build on them, we need to give ourselves this reputation of quality and reliability. If we build it, people will come.

 

You are totally right. From the company's perspective, you have to assume your cars aren't as reliable and just kill yourself coming up with better and better ones. You are also right about Ford squandering brands. No more Taurus, Escort, Thunderbird, Probe, etc. Why? Who knows.

 

But from the consumer perspective, many people aren't buying these cars based on bad data. Everyone keeps saying "They're not as reliable." Well reliability is a question we can answer. We can get the number of each model sold, find out how many problems each had, and come up with HARD DATA about reliability. Its totally possible. What I'm saying is that Consumer Reports does NOT do this. Its not that they are intentionally biased towards imports, its that the method of sampling they use simply cannot give us accurate information on reliability.

 

I haven't seen JD Power data, but I think that it is much better than Consumer Reports. The problem is that most articles throw CR's data around like it was the gospel truth.

[marc-o]

I haven't seen JD Power data, but I think that it is much better than Consumer Reports. The problem is that most articles throw CR's data around like it was the gospel truth.

 

 

LOL

 

"I haven't seen JD Power data, but I think that it is much better than CR"

 

 

JD Power is no better, in fact any survey has its drawbacks. The main problem with JD Power is that it does not differentiate between minor and major problems, does not address whether they are really problems or just misunderstandings of the vehicle's functioning, and doesn't address how well it was (or wasn't) solved.

 

Obviously you can't go by word of mouth since the "sample" is too small.

 

Of course, you could buy a car that is statistically better, and still buy the biggest lemon - then what?

 

I dont pay much attention to JD Power OR CR, and don't know anyone that does either. My suspicion is they are over-rated in the importance people place on them.