Obama: No choice but to take majority stake in GM

[suv_guy_19]

Most countries in Europe have nationalized health care - people wait months for surgery if the government even considers them a candidate, the governments control major industries, and people are in a classless society. Essentially, most countries practice some form of Socialism. There are no free markets there.

 

 

Ahhh....so you have no idea, in other words.

[silvrsvt]

In case you haven't noticed, the government is now the majority shareholder of GM - they can now dictate the day-to-day operations of the company and control the Board of Directors. Who do you think fired Waggoner? Obama. Case closed.

 

The Federal government wants to dictate how much bank executives get paid and not just for the banks where they lent money. If that isn't government interference, I don't know what is.

 

 

So you would much rather have a total meltdown of the automotive industry in this country instead of whats currently happening?

 

I don't like it either, but the alternative sucks even worse.

[suv_guy_19]

BTW, I'm not saying that America should turn into Europe...but I don't like people rushing to judge another idea that may be no worse than the idea that their country had. Europe is certainly not the hellhole that many on a certain end of the spectrum would have you believe.

[BlueOval5.0]

Ahhh....so you have no idea, in other words.

 

You care to enlighten us on how much the Canadian health care system sucks and why Canadian citizens come to the US for treatment?

 

Then you'll see why I don't want us becoming like the Europeans.

[suv_guy_19]

I'm not getting into this debate again....at least not in this forum....off topic on the other hand.

[BlueOval5.0]

So you would much rather have a total meltdown of the automotive industry in this country instead of whats currently happening?

 

I don't like it either, but the alternative sucks even worse.

 

I would have preferred the Federal Government to have stayed out of it. Instead, they spent $20 Billion in taxpayer money to "save the company" and still ran it into bankruptcy and now we need to spend another $50 Billion to re-structure it.

 

Had GM and Chrysler filed Chapter 11 like most other entities do, private enterprise could have come in and rescued the companies and run them like a business enterprise and not like Social Security.

 

Now, outsiders will not want to invest a cent in American Companies when the Federal Government dictates which creditors get what rather than follow bankruptcy law. This is protectionism at its best here and it will hurt America.

[NickF1011]

Glimmer of hope l noticed it Nick, 100,000 folk have lost their jobs at American Leyland/Chysler dealers, with another GM 14 plants closing yesterday with another 20,000 jellymould makers lost their jobs yesterday, and every American familiy of 4 now owes $750,000 in government debt/personel debt gotta say l can see the green shoots coming up as well Nick futures never been sooooooh gooood.

 

How many plants did Fritz new improved speedy Wagoner Mk2 shutter in China yesterday?

 

It usually gets worse before it gets better. And please don't look in my direction with those debt figures. The only "debt" I have is a mortgage, and well, that is secured by the value of the house, so I don't owe anything to anybody. My future is downright fantastic. :shades:

[morgande]

...Now, outsiders will not want to invest a cent in American Companies when the Federal Government dictates which creditors get what rather than follow bankruptcy law. This is protectionism at its best here and it will hurt America.

 

Lets see.

 

The Japanese government practices protectionism with respect to its auto industry and its electronics industries. The British government didn't...and now there is no British auto industry. There is also no manufacturing industries in the US. Why is that? Why are we the worlds biggest market, yet we create nothing to sell. We just buy buy buy?

 

Smart investing is smart investing. It has nothing to do with who controls what. If there is opp for profit, then there is opp for profit. Right now, there is no profit in the auto biz. Nobody is making any money. So why would an investor want to invest in a an company (or for that mater an industry) that makes no money? Granted this is a blanketed statement, but you get the general argument here. You can't just assume that investors will abandon GM now because its 61% Fed owned.

 

Your argument exist in a vacuum. If you look at government involvement in the mortgage industry for example, you can see that it is possible for the Fed to be involved in an industry and it not be socialism and drive out capitalism but in fact help it thrive. Its only when there are no checks and balances in the system, and it becomes exploited for short term profit that Capitalism begins to breakdown. Your seeing its effects now in both the auto industry and the collapsing of Motor City as well as the Banking and Financial industries.

[NickF1011]

There is also no manufacturing industries in the US.

 

 

HUUUUUH??

[morgande]

 

HUUUUUH??

 

By that I mean, the majority of the manufacturing has been outsourced. Look at how many tech heavyweights there are that are US companies, but whos product is not built here. That goes the same for our auto industry as well.

 

We don't make very much here anymore.

[NickF1011]

By that I mean, the majority of the manufacturing has been outsourced. Look at how many tech heavyweights there are that are US companies, but whos product is not built here. That goes the same for our auto industry as well.

 

We don't make very much here anymore.

 

We make more here than we ever have before in our history (excluding the current hiccup of a recession). Sure, we're also importing more than we ever have before in our history, but that in no way means we've suddenly stopped producing goods ourselves.

[suv_guy_19]

Now, outsiders will not want to invest a cent in American Companies when the Federal Government dictates which creditors get what rather than follow bankruptcy law. This is protectionism at its best here and it will hurt America.

 

So where are they going to invest instead? The United States is still one of the most unregulated markets in the world...bespite the 'socialist'.

[morgande]

We make more here than we ever have before in our history (excluding the current hiccup of a recession). Sure, we're also importing more than we ever have before in our history, but that in no way means we've suddenly stopped producing goods ourselves.

 

 

 

 

HUUUUUUUH?

 

Please explain. Because when I think about just about any commercial good that isn't Food, I see it being created and imported from another country (primarily in Asia).

Edited June 2, 2009 by morgande

[NickF1011]

 

 

HUUUUUUUH?

 

Please explain. Because when I think about just about any commercial good that isn't Food, I see it being created and imported from another country (primarily in Asia).

 

Transportation equipment, construction equipment, computers, electronics, food, beverages, chemicals, machinery, metal/paper/wood/plastic products, automobiles, aircraft, defense systems, satellites, textiles...

 

The list is basically endless. Do we have a monopoly on those markets? Of course not, but that doesn't mean we no longer participate in them at all.

Edited June 2, 2009 by NickF1011

[morgande]

Transportation equipment, construction equipment, computers, electronics, food, beverages, chemicals, machinery, metal/paper/wood/plastic products, automobiles, aircraft, defense systems, satellites, textiles...

 

The list is basically endless. Do we have a monopoly on those markets? Of course not, but that doesn't mean we no longer participate in them at all.

 

Computers? That industry belongs to the Taiwanese. They make all the motherboards, ram, etc. Tech speaking there are still some semiconductor manufacturing biz going on here. But for the most part the electronic biz (including computers) left town long time ago.

 

I said not counting food (that includes beaverages).

 

I would assume that the federal government would not buy defense systems from another country. But how many planes get build in a day or a year vs how many cars? Or computers? Or cell phones?

 

Textiles? Right now nearly every article of clothing on my back was made in somewhere else other than the USA.

 

If what you say is true, then the manufacturing belt would not have dried up. Nor would we have the NAFTA act be needed.

[NickF1011]

As other economies around the world advance, they take up the slack producing less "specialized" goods. Textiles would be a good example of that to some extent. You don't need a highly educated and motivated workforce to stitch together t-shirts or gloves. However, many of the advanced materials those t-shirts and gloves are made of (nylon, lycra, etc) are made in the U.S. and shipped to other countries in bulk to be assembled into various other goods. The U.S. has become a much more specialized manufacturing country, as have all of the developed nations around the world. It's the natural progession of capitalism.

 

Computers? That industry belongs to the Taiwanese. They make all the motherboards, ram, etc. Tech speaking there are still some semiconductor manufacturing biz going on here. But for the most part the electronic biz (including computers) left town long time ago.

 

There are still millions of microchips and computer systems built in the U.S. every year.

 

I said not counting food (that includes beaverages).

 

Exclude it all you want, but we still make it in droves.

 

I would assume that the federal government would not buy defense systems from another country. But how many planes get build in a day or a year vs how many cars? Or computers? Or cell phones?

 

More excuses...

 

Textiles? Right now nearly every article of clothing on my back was made in somewhere else other than the USA.

 

You didn't look very hard when you were shopping for clothes then.

 

If what you say is true, then the manufacturing belt would not have dried up. Nor would we have the NAFTA act be needed.

 

The manufacturing belt dried up because the TYPE of manufacturing the U.S. does has evolved. Those areas of the country which did not evolve their infrastructure and workforce to keep up with the changes were, unfortunately, left behind. Those are the breaks.

[BlueOval5.0]

Lets see....

 

Your argument exist in a vacuum. If you look at government involvement in the mortgage industry for example, you can see that it is possible for the Fed to be involved in an industry and it not be socialism and drive out capitalism but in fact help it thrive. Its only when there are no checks and balances in the system, and it becomes exploited for short term profit that Capitalism begins to breakdown. Your seeing its effects now in both the auto industry and the collapsing of Motor City as well as the Banking and Financial industries.

 

The Federal Government's involvement in the mortgage industry is what caused the collapse in the financial sector. The Libs in congress forced lending institutions to write loans to folks who could not afford them simply to make every American a home owner. There are more than a plethora of checks and balances in the system, they were not used because the Federal Government did not want to.

 

Look at the improprieties at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Congress was warned on two occasions including as recently as 2005 and Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and Ms. Watkins all turned their heads while Franklin Raines was getting paid $90 million over 5 years while bankrupting the agency. Of course, they were more than willing to take contributions from the quasi-government agency for election campaigns as was our current President.

 

Capitalism did not cause the financial collapse or the auto sector failure. GM, Ford, and Chrysler caused their own problems with quality issues, poor products, and awful labor agreements. The foreign competiton passed them by. Fortunately Ford survived but the others did not. That's how Capitalism works, the domestic companies did not make the necessary adjustments to keep up with the competition.

 

I don't know how you can say there is not enough regulation in the auto industry. Look at the ridiculous emissions rules, CAFE standards, among others. The safety standards are being compromised by the pollution controls. The government is causing all these problems, not the automakers.

[morgande]

The Federal Government's involvement in the mortgage industry is what caused the collapse in the financial sector. The Libs in congress forced lending institutions to write loans to folks who could not afford them simply to make every American a home owner. There are more than a plethora of checks and balances in the system, they were not used because the Federal Government did not want to.

 

This is simply not true. Yes Democrats provided opportunities for lower income folks to get loans. There is nothing wrong with that. Home ownership is the cornerstone of wealth in this country. There is nothing wrong with a provision that allows more people to get a piece of the American dream.

 

The problem was not that the government forced institution to loan to folks who could not afford them. The problem was that these institutions went overboard and offered loans to people that were too much for them to afford. They shielded the details on how ARMs work in hopes that they would sell the loans as securities and get out from them long before they were ever to go into default.

 

Everyone deserves a chance at the American dream. But not everyone needs a jumbo loan for 1/2 a million dollars. And that's what people were getting. A lot of these folks were living just outside of their means trying to afford $2500-3000k+ mortages per month. Their ARMs adjust, and now they can't afford them. A lender is just as responsible as a lendee. It was greed on BOTH sides of the table.

 

Look at the improprieties at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Congress was warned on two occasions including as recently as 2005 and Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and Ms. Watkins all turned their heads while Franklin Raines was getting paid $90 million over 5 years while bankrupting the agency. Of course, they were more than willing to take contributions from the quasi-government agency for election campaigns as was our current President.

 

Campaign contributions? Give me a break. How much money did Oil execs pony up to President Bush to turn a blind eye and rape this country for billion dollar profit quarters on top of billion dollar profit quarters. You tell me how a company like Enron and post record profit earnings when during a national disaster. $4 gas is what was the typing point of this recession. It causes everything to crumble. And you want to talk about campaign contributions to Obama? Get out of here!

 

Capitalism did not cause the financial collapse or the auto sector failure. GM, Ford, and Chrysler caused their own problems with quality issues, poor products, and awful labor agreements. The foreign competiton passed them by. Fortunately Ford survived but the others did not. That's how Capitalism works, the domestic companies did not make the necessary adjustments to keep up with the competition.

 

And let me ask you: why did the big 3 continue with quality problems, poor product, etc? That's because they were feasting on sales of trucks and SUVs. And the stock market rewarded them. That's how Capitalism works. Make as much as you can, while you can. If your not growing, your shrinking.

 

I don't know how you can say there is not enough regulation in the auto industry. Look at the ridiculous emissions rules, CAFE standards, among others. The safety standards are being compromised by the pollution controls. The government is causing all these problems, not the automakers.

 

I will agree that the gov is regulating the auto industry right into the ground. However, what I am talking about is a lack of regulation that allowed the crap we just saw a few months ago to happen. Bush set up a TARP fund...and what happened. How many BILLIONS were spent that nobody can even trace? How many banks bought out other banks, just to get bigger so they could position themselves as benefactors of more TARP money (even if they didn't need it).