jpd80 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) LINK"My preference would have been to stay out of it completelty," Obama said. "But the alternative was to potentially see a liquidation bankruptcy in which (an) enormous institution with a huge impact on our economy, particularly in a lot of Midwestern states, simply gets broken up into pieces, and in the current deep recession that we're in, could have had horrendous effects in terms of the overall economy." Obama defending the government's decision to take a 72.5% stake in GM. Where are the traditional lenders, why don't they step forward now that the credit crunch is easing? The answer is GM is a friggin' $80 billion money pit that no one will touch with a ten foot barge pole and to do nothing is the government's worst nightmare for the community. I hope Americans get their cash back. Hopefully Ford stock double in price in the next couple of months allowing more debt bond swaps setting Ford up for their coming battle against the soon to be sanitized GM. Edited May 31, 2009 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocheese Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Bullshit. Just another step towards socialism. I betcha dollars to donuts Barry is pissed Ford got their shit together before all this came down. While Barry takes over control of GM and Chrysler, the public will buy more and more Fords because they aren't government run. That will only help Ford get stronger. Great news for the public, horrible news for Barry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Obama defending the government's decision to take a 72.5% stake in GM.Where are the traditional lenders, why don't they step forward now that the credit crunch is easing? The answer is GM is a friggin' $80 billion money pit that no one will touch with a ten foot barge pole and to do nothing is the government's worst nightmare for the community. I hope Americans get their cash back. Hopefully Ford stock double in price in the next couple of months allowing more debt bond swaps setting Ford up for their coming battle against the soon to be sanitized GM. The money put toward GM and Chrysler isn't likely coming back. Chrysler's isn't for sure. Basically the American Taxpayer just bought Chrysler (an American company) and gave it to Fiat (a foreign company). One caveat. IIRC, Fiat can opt out as of June 16, if the deal hasn't gone through by then. At that point, it would seem the money was spent for nothing. My guess is that traditional lenders would prefer secured status; which seem perilous at best with this Administration. I understand the feeling of not wanting thousands of people put out of work, not that I'm defending Obama's (or Bush's) actions in this matter. It just seems to me that if we had opened up any/every oil resource available, and gas was still $1.20/gallon, we would not be having this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 The Japs also felt they had to bomb Pearl Harbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswhoscomingtodinner Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Bullshit. Just another step towards socialism. I betcha dollars to donuts Barry is pissed Ford got their shit together before all this came down. While Barry takes over control of GM and Chrysler, the public will buy more and more Fords because they aren't government run. That will only help Ford get stronger. Great news for the public, horrible news for Barry. I agree, Obama is pissed he can't take control of Ford. Watch your back is what I say to Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOval5.0 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 "Government is no the solution to our problem. Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan Big government taking over big business. This administration is a disgrace - look what their doing to Capitalism. GM and Chrysler should have gone bankrupt this past fall before taking taxpayer money. The Federal Government should have stayed out of it, all they are doing is prolonging the agony and dragging out the recession they created in the first place. In 4 months they've taken over the banking and automotive industry and now they want to nationalize health care. May God help us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 In 4 months they've taken over the banking and automotive industry and now they want to nationalize health care. May God help us all. I think "taken over" is a bit extreme wording of the situation. We'll see what happens long-term here. Some banks are already repaying some TARP funds, so the long-term government interference there seems to be temporary at worst. And the government really has no vested interest in being involved in the auto industry either on a long-term basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 "Government is no the solution to our problem. Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan Big government taking over big business. This administration is a disgrace - look what their doing to Capitalism. GM and Chrysler should have gone bankrupt this past fall before taking taxpayer money. The Federal Government should have stayed out of it, all they are doing is prolonging the agony and dragging out the recession they created in the first place. In 4 months they've taken over the banking and automotive industry and now they want to nationalize health care. May God help us all. Calm down, have a Vallium. Unfortunately government intervention was necessary due to the delinquency of the free market. Without a stabilizer that would free up interbank lending the US was heading for depression. Now we have clueless advisors running around criticizing the government but none of them could get their act sufficiently together to avoid a crunch. Judge the government on what they do next, exiting those areas where intervention was needed. The first will be TARP money hand backs from the banks, the next will be getting GM and Chrysler revived. If all goes to plan the government might even make a profit on all that TARP lending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CivicDuty2007 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) Obama defending the government's decision to take a 72.5% stake in GM.Where are the traditional lenders, why don't they step forward now that the credit crunch is easing? The answer is GM is a friggin' $80 billion money pit that no one will touch with a ten foot barge pole and to do nothing is the government's worst nightmare for the community. I hope Americans get their cash back. Hopefully Ford stock double in price in the next couple of months allowing more debt bond swaps setting Ford up for their coming battle against the soon to be sanitized GM. Edited June 1, 2009 by CivicDuty2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CivicDuty2007 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Bullshit. Just another step towards socialism. I betcha dollars to donuts Barry is pissed Ford got their shit together before all this came down. While Barry takes over control of GM and Chrysler, the public will buy more and more Fords because they aren't government run. That will only help Ford get stronger. Great news for the public, horrible news for Barry. LONG LIVE THE BLUE OVAL>>>>>>>>>>>> :happy feet: :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddaughter Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I don't like it either, BUT the last administration made it clear they would of let the industry fold completely. Which means ALL the jobs, retiree pensions, healthcare would have been GONE. There would have been no shot at saving anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgande Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 "Government is no the solution to our problem. Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan Big government taking over big business. This administration is a disgrace - look what their doing to Capitalism. GM and Chrysler should have gone bankrupt this past fall before taking taxpayer money. The Federal Government should have stayed out of it, all they are doing is prolonging the agony and dragging out the recession they created in the first place. In 4 months they've taken over the banking and automotive industry and now they want to nationalize health care. May God help us all. Where do I start. What did they [Obamas admin] do to Capitalism? It was Capitalism that got us in this mess the first place. No discipline. You can't blame a guy who is in over his head on a mortgage any more than you can blame the bank who sold him the mortgage knowing he couldn't afford it in the first place. How many other countries federal governments had to step into their financial industries and auto industries during this global recession? The Japanese government didn't leave Toyota to rot. European governments didn't let their banks fall over. So how why are you expecting Obama to? What would the country be like had FDR not stepped in with the new deal after the depression? Too much of anything is never a good thing (except horsepower and torque). We had too little regulation. Not enough checks and balances in the system. Capitalism went wild with no accountability and we paid for it. Obama is walking a tight rope with what he is going, I will admit. But what alternative would you suggest that wouldn't send this country into a nose dive the likes of which we've never seen? I don't think the government should be in the banking biz or the auto biz. But for right now, we had to do what had to be done. I don't think that Obama plans to have government control these entities for long, and if he did...trust the country would boot him out of the office and change course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 What would the country be like had FDR not stepped in with the new deal after the depression? A bit difficult to tell, but probably a whole lot better. World War 2 got us out of the Great Depression, not anything directly attributable to the New Deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 A bit difficult to tell, but probably a whole lot better. World War 2 got us out of the Great Depression, not anything directly attributable to the New Deal. Well, hopefully it doesn't take World War III to get us out of these times.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Well, hopefully it doesn't take World War III to get us out of these times.... There are glimmers of recovery already starting to surface. The impact of this recession wasn't nearly as broad or deep as the Great Depression, as much as some would like us all to believe it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 The problem today, is perception. Most people alive today, were not alive then............ thus, they have no practical basis for comparison. The average family today, thinks we are in a major depression if they have to cut back their Starbucks runs to twice a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 There are glimmers of recovery already starting to surface. The impact of this recession wasn't nearly as broad or deep as the Great Depression, as much as some would like us all to believe it is. I know that, it's just that global relations aren't exactly at their all-time high right now, with North Korea about to do another nuclear test and Iran the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOval5.0 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Where do I start. What did they [Obamas admin] do to Capitalism? It was Capitalism that got us in this mess the first place. No discipline. You can't blame a guy who is in over his head on a mortgage any more than you can blame the bank who sold him the mortgage knowing he couldn't afford it in the first place. How many other countries federal governments had to step into their financial industries and auto industries during this global recession? The Japanese government didn't leave Toyota to rot. European governments didn't let their banks fall over. So how why are you expecting Obama to? What would the country be like had FDR not stepped in with the new deal after the depression? Too much of anything is never a good thing (except horsepower and torque). We had too little regulation. Not enough checks and balances in the system. Capitalism went wild with no accountability and we paid for it. Obama is walking a tight rope with what he is going, I will admit. But what alternative would you suggest that wouldn't send this country into a nose dive the likes of which we've never seen? I don't think the government should be in the banking biz or the auto biz. But for right now, we had to do what had to be done. I don't think that Obama plans to have government control these entities for long, and if he did...trust the country would boot him out of the office and change course. The Administration is eradicating Capitalism, taking over banks and now the auto industry. Once they get control, they never give it back. The country is headed exactly for a repeat of the FDR Administration - straight to hell. FDR prolonged the economic recovery by making Americans fear everything, just like today. Not only that, he instituted entitlement programs like Social Security and how well has the government run that? Just ask LBJ where the money went. You and I pay for it and will never see a dime. You are incorrect, there was more than enough regulation - it wasn't enforced. The reason that happened was because the Government (under Clinton) wanted everyone to have a house and forced the banks to lend to unworthy people. We're not paying for Capitalism, we're paying for government interference. Bush made a terrible mistake in pushing for the bailouts of the financial industry and Obama made it worse by pushing for the stimulus package. Let the free markets correct themselves. Yes, the pain will hurt more and the recession would have been deeper. But, it would not have lasted as long and the economic recovery would have been quicker and larger. Now, we'll be spinning our wheels in debt and going nowhere other than paying more in taxes to pay off the debt. I don't want this great Country to be like Europe (which Obama does want). This is America, the greatest country in the world. We have liberty and freedom many others don't have and I am grateful for it. I want to be able to buy any car I want regardless of how much it pollutes or the MPG it gets. The thing that gets me is that my riding lawn mower emits more pollutants than my car does over the course of the year yet nobody makes a stink about it. "We the People tell the Government what to do, it doesn't tell us." - Ronald Reagan. This seems to have been forgotten over the past 15-20 years. Whatever happened to States rights? The Constitution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 The Administration is eradicating Capitalism, taking over banks and now the auto industry. Once they get control, they never give it back. Care to back this up at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I don't want this great Country to be like Europe (which Obama does want). And what is Europe like, exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocheese Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 The thing that gets me is that my riding lawn mower emits more pollutants than my car does over the course of the year yet nobody makes a stink about it. This one always makes me laugh. Every year there is a thing in the local paper about people complaining that gas leaf blowers should be banned because they are noisy and they pollute too much. I have one and it gets used once, maybe twice a year. Meanwhile, I never hear anyone complain about my lawnmower running every 5 days, or my snow blower every time it snows. Hippies are so utterly ridiculous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOval5.0 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 And what is Europe like, exactly? Most countries in Europe have nationalized health care - people wait months for surgery if the government even considers them a candidate, the governments control major industries, and people are in a classless society. Essentially, most countries practice some form of Socialism. There are no free markets there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOval5.0 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Care to back this up at all? In case you haven't noticed, the government is now the majority shareholder of GM - they can now dictate the day-to-day operations of the company and control the Board of Directors. Who do you think fired Waggoner? Obama. Case closed. The Federal government wants to dictate how much bank executives get paid and not just for the banks where they lent money. If that isn't government interference, I don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOval5.0 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 From Investors.com: A Matter Of Law Posted 06/01/2009 06:19 PM ET Economy: With General Motors' long-awaited "pre-packaged bankruptcy" finally here, America is on the verge of a new era — one where government, not investors and consumers, is the final arbiter of success. GM's bankruptcy pushes bondholders aside in favor of the U.S. government and the UAW. Though bondholders hold $27 billion in debt, they'll get just 10% of stock. How's that compare with the other "stakeholders?" For spending $50 billion to bail out GM, the government will get 60% of the equity in the new GM; the UAW, which along with other unions gave millions to Democrats, will be repaid for its loyalty with 17.5% of the stock for $10 billion of unsecured debts. So the government, with roughly two times what private bondholders have on the table, gets a stake five times bigger. And the union, with about a third as much "invested," gets a 70% bigger stake. Even the Canadian government, with its $9.5 billion "invested," ends up with 12%. They call it "restructuring." We call it theft. Never in our memory has there been a more thorough, systematic effort to disenfranchise the shareholders and bondholders of a major American firm. It will make investors — domestic and foreign alike — think twice about making any investment in an American stock or bond in the coming years. Why invest if your money and rights as an investor can be arbitrarily stripped from you, as they were in GM's case? But our real issue with this isn't that people will lose money. It's that we don't believe the government's actions are even legal. The White House has basically been manipulating GM into bankruptcy since early this year, putting 31-year-old Brian Deese, a Yale law student, in charge of GM's restructuring. "It is not every 31-year-old who, in a first government job, finds himself dismantling General Motors and rewriting the rules of American capitalism," the New York Times said with tongue in cheek (we think). It used to be that the "rules of American capitalism" came from 200 years of U.S. case law, the Constitution and legitimate federal regulation. But no more. Instead, the job's been given to someone not yet out of law school. This shows shocking contempt for GM, once the world's pre-eminent industrial company, for American capitalism and the rule of law. We don't think this travesty passes constitutional muster and hope to see it vigorously challenged in federal court soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) There are glimmers of recovery already starting to surface. The impact of this recession wasn't nearly as broad or deep as the Great Depression, as much as some would like us all to believe it is. Glimmer of hope l noticed it Nick, 100,000 folk have lost their jobs at American Leyland/Chysler dealers, with another GM 14 plants closing yesterday with another 20,000 jellymould makers lost their jobs yesterday, and every American familiy of 4 now owes $750,000 in government debt/personel debt gotta say l can see the green shoots coming up as well Nick futures never been sooooooh gooood. How many plants did Fritz new improved speedy Wagoner Mk2 shutter in China yesterday? Edited June 2, 2009 by Ford Jellymoulds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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