A.M.A. Opposes Government-Sponsored Healthcare Plan

[suv_guy_19]

Ontario is the worst managed province in the country with out exception. And who knows how old that site is.

 

 

Ontario is having problems (economic), and a lot of the problems rest with Bob Rae and Mike Harris, but Ontario still has one of the best if not the best health care systems and the CIHI wait time statistics show that. They of course have their health problems like every other place, but their health care system is still quite good.

Edited July 24, 2009 by suv_guy_19

[matthewq4b]

Ontario is having problems (economic), and a lot of the problems rest with Bob Rae and Mike Harris, but Ontario still has one of the best if not the best health care systems and the CIHI wait time statistics show that. They of course have their health problems like every other place, but their health care system is still quite good.

 

 

Compared to most of western canada it is a gong show especially in Toronto.

 

 

And the fault does not lay with Bob Rae. That really drives me up the wall when people blame him.

 

The fault lies with Peterson. Bob was made captain of the Titanic just after it hit the iceberg with out any one telling him it had hit one.

 

Peterson more than doubled Ontario's provincial debt in just 4 short years and spent like a drunken sailer on a 3 day shore leave. Perteson took control of province with a strong economy (The strongest yet seen to date in this nation) that was deficit fee with surpluses and tanked it. Peterson gave Bob Rae a province that was at full throttle and burning cash as fast as it could be printed with no oil left in the engine. Bob did not nor did any one else fully know how bad things actually were and once it was realized the economy imploded and they were left nothing to fix it with. Bob Rae is not totally blameless as he did not take the action neesesary to minimize the long term damage. And paid the price for that inaction at the next election. He was more a victim of Peterson's actions than he was his own inaction.

 

Perterson is directly responsible for every singe issue facing Ontario today. If he had stayed on the course Davis had laid out Ontario would most likly be debt free and still be Cananda's economic growth leader and setting the tone for the rest of the nation.

Peterson's liberal Gov't are the ones to blame for Ontario's current situation and the cost cutting that had to happen under Harris. Harris had to cut costs no question but he had no clue how do it properly and further tanked the province.

 

Mc Guinty does not have the ability to fix the damge done in the last 20 odd years. He is trying but is not doing what is really needed to fix it.

 

 

 

Matthew

Edited July 24, 2009 by matthewq4b

[suv_guy_19]

Anyway, I don't want to shift this debate from what it's supposed to be.

Edited July 24, 2009 by suv_guy_19

[suv_guy_19]

To tell you the truth, I only blamed Rae because everyone does. He was facing terrible circumstances....much like a certain US leader.

[RangerM]

To tell you the truth, I only blamed Rae because everyone does. He was facing terrible circumstances....much like a certain US leader.

But is Rae bailing out the water, or is he scuttling the ship......like a certain US leader?

[suv_guy_19]

Well, I would instead used the analogy that Obama is trying to patch the hole, and he has had varying degrees of success in different areas.

[RangerM]

Well, I would instead used the analogy that Obama is trying to patch the hole, and he has had varying degrees of success in different areas.

The hole in what?

 

The only difference between the current economic cycle, and previous ones is that the solutions (and the deficits....the hole, if you will) have got larger.

[fmccap]

Well, I would instead used the analogy that Obama is trying to patch the hole, and he has had varying degrees of success in different areas.

Do you have any examples?

[suv_guy_19]

Do you have any examples?

 

Sure: Some of the bank bailouts (which Obama continued) are working. The economy seems to have stabilized overall now, and both the US Federal Reserve and the Bank of Canada have said that the recession is basically over.

[suv_guy_19]

The hole in what?

 

The only difference between the current economic cycle, and previous ones is that the solutions (and the deficits....the hole, if you will) have got larger.

 

The hold in the economy. The ship was taking on water, and that had to be stopped. I must also point out that almost every economic cycle in the US seems to involve deficits. Hopefully they'll shrink again, but without raising taxes in a year or two, they might not.

[macattak1]

Ontario...Matthew

 

Though it is long , thanks for the well done reply. A lot of good information there. I have not read all of both posts, but I have a feeling, that even though you don't site facts per se, I probably agree with most all of it. Thanks for the well thought out post.

I will finish and get back to you. You put a bit of work into it so I did not want that to go unappreciated.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

Sure: Some of the bank bailouts (which Obama continued) are working. The economy seems to have stabilized overall now, and both the US Federal Reserve and the Bank of Canada have said that the recession is basically over.

 

I have not heard the Feds say anything was over. What I heard them say at most is that we are starting to turn around.

 

When one has sunk below the surface and gone very close to the bottom, turning around is good, but no major accomplishment. One is still way under water and may no longer be sinking as fast or at all. But it does not mean one's mouth is now 2" from the surface.

[mikem12]

Every system has horror stories. No system works perfectly. Some work better than others, and there are things that we can all learn from each other. We should really all be working to improve things within our own countries and not pointing out the flaws in other systems. It's not really all that productive.

 

 

the health care will pass, I just hope your grandmother doesn't need care for any number of maladies that plague the elderly.

 

This bill isn't for the ill or elderly, it's for the healthy. the elderly will be given a green, blue or red pill. They will be told they are just to old to care for.

[Trimdingman]

Mike Harris was a Conservative. At the time he was in office, the federal government was Liberal. It was the federal Liberals who cut funding to Ontario for health care. The Liberal media was all over Harris, just like they were all over Bush in the US. Actually, Harris did a fine job as Premier of Ontario, and I was hopeful that he would become Prime Minister, but the timing was wrong. Harris made substantial cuts to provincial income tax, and brought back the Ontario economy after the NDP government of Bob Rae destroyed it. Jean Chretien, the Prime Minister at the time, tried to hide the positive impact of Mike Harris's tax cuts on workers' pay checks by front-end loading the CPP and EI deductions. Chretien was a spiteful and hateful s.o.b. The present Liberal Premier of Ontario, Dalton McGuinty, is usually characatured with a Pinnochio nose, because he lied so much to get into office.

 

Socialized health care was a mistake, but you can't put the genie back into the bottle. I hope that the U.S. doesn't make the same mistake that we made here in Canada.

[suv_guy_19]

It was the federal Liberals who cut funding to Ontario for health care.

 

You're right, the federal government had a balance to budget and they cut funding big time. Unfortunately, the provinces cut taxes and services at the same time.

[suv_guy_19]

the health care will pass, I just hope your grandmother doesn't need care for any number of maladies that plague the elderly.

 

This bill isn't for the ill or elderly, it's for the healthy. the elderly will be given a green, blue or red pill. They will be told they are just to old to care for.

 

I think you have no proof for that. My grandmother has had several major surgeries under our single payer system. You aren't even getting a single payer system.

[napfirst]

I think you have no proof for that. My grandmother has had several major surgeries under our single payer system. You aren't even getting a single payer system.

The House bill currently being considered does in fact morph into a single payer system by viture of not allowing current program to add new members.....therefore as their current membership ages and the cost increase accordingly, they cease to be viable......

[matthewq4b]

Mike Harris was a Conservative. At the time he was in office, the federal government was Liberal. It was the federal Liberals who cut funding to Ontario for health care. The Liberal media was all over Harris, just like they were all over Bush in the US. Actually, Harris did a fine job as Premier of Ontario, and I was hopeful that he would become Prime Minister, but the timing was wrong. Harris made substantial cuts to provincial income tax, and brought back the Ontario economy after the NDP government of Bob Rae destroyed it. Jean Chretien, the Prime Minister at the time, tried to hide the positive impact of Mike Harris's tax cuts on workers' pay checks by front-end loading the CPP and EI deductions. Chretien was a spiteful and hateful s.o.b. The present Liberal Premier of Ontario, Dalton McGuinty, is usually characatured with a Pinnochio nose, because he lied so much to get into office.

 

Socialized health care was a mistake, but you can't put the genie back into the bottle. I hope that the U.S. doesn't make the same mistake that we made here in Canada.

 

 

The Feds cut funding to all the provinces Ontario was no excpetion. And Harris was and is an idiot not one positive thing came out of his leadership. He left the proince in far worse shape than he got it. Not only did he cut funding to every thing he did nothing to streamline Gov't agceny's he just cut funding. And cut taxes in areas that generated no replacement revenue. Homelessneses skyrocketed as did crime.

 

Alberta was far more hated than Ont was by Chreitan but we had an effecitve leader that was able to roll with the punches and provided real and susbstantial sustnaiable cuts and growth.

 

In a time when Oil was less than $15 (with one year averaging $17) a barrel. Not only was Ralph able to turn Alberta's economy around and reall in spending in what should have been for all intence purposes been a major ressison for Alberta, instead he got the province to post some of the fastest econimic growth in the nation ended budget deficits and payed off the debt to boot. Umemployment went down homelessness dropped Crime dropped and household averge incomes sky rocketed to where we had just about the highest averge incomes in North America and lowest taxes.

 

He cut sepnding with an eye to increasing efficaincy Slashed Corporate Taxes and then cut personal income taxes once average household incomes rose. He lured several major corpaorations head offices to Alberta Including CP rails head office to Calgary that had been in Montreal since forever.

The residents were given prosperity checks and even today a portion of my NG bill is payed for by the Alberta Gov't.

 

Harris's programs did none of this. And left the provinces infastructure social programs and government programs and agency's in a complete shambles. Harris did not tax cut the one thing that would have generated more growth than any thing else the....PST. Instead Ontario resdidents got tax breaks that amounted to pennies in the grand sceme of things and Corporate taxes were cut even less. No wonder Harper has said Ontario is the last place any one would want to invest. Peterson laid the ground work for failure Bob Rae ingnored the issue unitl too late and implimented ineffecitve and further damaging policiy's. Harris gutted the province leaving it completly unable to cope with the ecomomic and social issues surounding an extended economic downturn. Mc Guinty has at least made an effrort to stem the downward spiral but he is not the leader to make it really turn around.

 

The Reform part of the Allince made sure made sure Harris had no involvment in the new Allianace. They knew exactly what he was all about. Harris is looked upon as clown here. A circus act that tried to copy Alberta and was comedic relief for the rest of the nation.

 

20 odd years of destructive and poor managment has taken what was the nations power house and reduced it to a wimpering shell of it's former self.

 

If you think Harris was a good premier it shows how far out of touch of reality you really are.

Harris was a Ralph Klein wanna be that had neither the smarts or intellegance to pull it off.

He sunk the province socially by slashing and burnng and in the end gained nothing for doing so and caused more problems than he fixed.

 

 

 

Matthew

[fmccap]

Sure: Some of the bank bailouts (which Obama continued) are working. The economy seems to have stabilized overall now, and both the US Federal Reserve and the Bank of Canada have said that the recession is basically over.

I see no proof of any bank bailout working.

 

No matter what we did it would stabalize at some point. To me it seems close but not yet.

 

The US Federal Reserve????LOL Who would believe anything they say?

[Trimdingman]

I was living in Ontario during Mike Harris's term. He got people off welfare by the hunderds of thousands. He brought back business that fled the NDP. Property values came back after they plunged under the NDP. He did not make excuses because the province was in a mess from the previous government. He rolled up his sleeves and went to work. The left squealed like stuck pigs because he was doing such a great job, and they feared him. He was the best thing Canada had seen for a long time.

[suv_guy_19]

Wow, you are out of touch. I don't know many people that look back fondly on Mike Harris from any province.

[matthewq4b]

Wow, you are out of touch. I don't know many people that look back fondly on Mike Harris from any province.

 

 

Ya I'll second that one SUV Trim obviously is so far out touch with reality (mind you his post sort of confirm that) it would take an battery of shrinks and 2 pharmaceutical companies working round the clock to get him back in touch.

 

 

Trim is a blind conservative and can not see the good or bad sort of like those MMGW crowd he preaches about. Same kind of affliction.

 

Matthew

[Edstock]

I'll third that.

 

The problem with Trim is that he is ignorant.

 

An example of this is his extolling of the Harris Conservatives, and blaming the NDP government before it.

 

That's what I call "Trimtruth".

 

The real truth is that the NDP government in Ontario didn't do much at all to worsen the Ontario financial mess, and even started to cut back provincial expenditures.

 

Why couldn't the NDP (hailed by the Trim mind as mad spending socialists) do very much?

 

Simple. The Ontario economy went into recession, and the province had become a sales-tax junkie. When the economy tanked, people stopped spending, and the Ontario government went heavily into the red.

 

Why? Because the last 4 Ontario governments before the NDP came to power, both Liberal and Conservative governments, increased Ontario government spending by an average of 5% per year.

 

Because of this, the Ontario government had turned into a bloated monster funded by sales-tax money that was almost twice the size it had been in the 60's.

 

Again, the NDP had virtually nothing to do with this. The Trimtruth, however, is much different.

[Floyd Lawson]

While the cash for clunkers program has been considered a success, the adminisrtation of it has been a failure, from computer system meltdowns to under-estimated demand. This is small compared to what a national healthcare program would be. Now it should be clear the the government can't run anything efficiently and why there would be long lines and rationing.

 

 

Congress moved Friday to inject fresh funds into the wildly popular "cash for clunkers" program after it nearly ran out of money, threatening to become a symbol of government bungling.

 

"This is a great program, but it's also the worst-run program I've ever seen," said Alex Perdikis, Koons's executive vice president.

 

Earlier this week, fears mounted within the administration and among dealers that the sheer volume of sales could prove larger than the legislation -- or the government's clerks -- could handle.

 

Link

Edited August 1, 2009 by Floyd Lawson

[napfirst]

Here's what we'll get with a govt run healthcare plan:

 

 

Death Drugs Cause Uproar in Oregon

Oregon Health Plan