Today's general Council Meeting

[Monroe B Gone]

Well today's meeting was what was expected, the Company wants the same thing that GM and Crysler got in the BK filings in the form of veba and other things (retiree vision and Dental) and good old Ron give it all away Gettlefinger is standing right there with the Company trying to sell this horse sh** to the same people again 3 times in the last year or so. Well Ron How about answering these questions #1 last time Bob King stated "we must all sacrifice equally" we gave up our 3% raise and within 3 weeks everyone at the solidarity house got their 3% bonus equal??? my a** #2 we aproved you to dip into our strike fund to help with organizing why have we only orgainzed less than 500 members with all the money spent? remember Bon Kings "(Wiz kids) the only wizzing, is them on themselves!!!! In the same time frame the IBEW has organized over 4000 members with 25% of the money used that we spent on the 400. Hell I know for a fact that a stamping plant in Alabama has sought out the UAW for representation, and have been ignored!!!! they gave the rep a full copy of names and addresses of each employee that works there (all 560 people) the rep claim he has AL, FL, and MS to service so he doesn't have the time or resourses to work on it at this time??????WTF!!!!! We need the south to be organized for us to be safe in the North!!!!!! How about every retiree of the IUAW give up their dental and vision! then we will talk. Lets put a stop to all the bonus's paid to the IUAW retiree's when they retire. People I am Damn proud to say that I am a UAW member, but at the same time embaressed to have the jack a**'s at solidarity house looking out for my best interest!!! We gave up alot to turn this Company around and now you want to screw the retiree's when we gave them a promise when they retired???? No more give backs!!! Time to change our strategy on organizing!!! Folks we are the UAW... if the IUAW reps are not looking out for us we MUST unite and take back what is rightfully ours. Sorry to all the grammar mistakes in advance!!!

[lquidspine]

I am assuming this was the meeting that was posted on another thread correct ?

 

 

If so what else besides retiree vision and dental do they want ?

Rumors where parity with arbitration and giving up the right to strike in 2011, did that happen ?

[Dale143]

I am assuming this was the meeting that was posted on another thread correct ?

 

 

If so what else besides retiree vision and dental do they want ?

Rumors where parity with arbitration and giving up the right to strike in 2011, did that happen ?

[/quote

 

http://www.freep.com/article/20090805/BUSI...h-Ford-Motor-Co.

[MichiganTruck_Mafia]

Ford has been saying since May it is seeking additional changes to the labor contract comparable to more extensive agreements reached between the UAW, Chrysler Group LLC and General Motors Co., such as a no-strike clause.

 

http://www.freep.com/article/20090805/BUSI...h-Ford-Motor-Co.

 

 

It must be nice to get the same concessions as your bankrupt competitors without having to file bankruptcy yourself.

[Captain723]

Well today's meeting was what was expected, the Company wants the same thing that GM and Crysler got in the BK filings in the form of veba and other things (retiree vision and Dental) and good old Ron give it all away Gettlefinger is standing right there with the Company trying to sell this horse sh** to the same people again 3 times in the last year or so. Well Ron How about answering these questions #1 last time Bob King stated "we must all sacrifice equally" we gave up our 3% raise and within 3 weeks everyone at the solidarity house got their 3% bonus equal??? my a** #2 we aproved you to dip into our strike fund to help with organizing why have we only orgainzed less than 500 members with all the money spent? remember Bon Kings "(Wiz kids) the only wizzing, is them on themselves!!!! In the same time frame the IBEW has organized over 4000 members with 25% of the money used that we spent on the 400. Hell I know for a fact that a stamping plant in Alabama has sought out the UAW for representation, and have been ignored!!!! they gave the rep a full copy of names and addresses of each employee that works there (all 560 people) the rep claim he has AL, FL, and MS to service so he doesn't have the time or resourses to work on it at this time??????WTF!!!!! We need the south to be organized for us to be safe in the North!!!!!! How about every retiree of the IUAW give up their dental and vision! then we will talk. Lets put a stop to all the bonus's paid to the IUAW retiree's when they retire. People I am Damn proud to say that I am a UAW member, but at the same time embaressed to have the jack a**'s at solidarity house looking out for my best interest!!! We gave up alot to turn this Company around and now you want to screw the retiree's when we gave them a promise when they retired???? No more give backs!!! Time to change our strategy on organizing!!! Folks we are the UAW... if the IUAW reps are not looking out for us we MUST unite and take back what is rightfully ours. Sorry to all the grammar mistakes in advance!!!

It is nice that you have all your facts straight..... ......please do some research before you open your mouth!

[whereswaldo]

Well today's meeting was what was expected, the Company wants the same thing that GM and Crysler got in the BK filings in the form of veba and other things (retiree vision and Dental) and good old Ron give it all away Gettlefinger is standing right there with the Company trying to sell this horse sh** to the same people again 3 times in the last year or so. Well Ron How about answering these questions #1 last time Bob King stated "we must all sacrifice equally" we gave up our 3% raise and within 3 weeks everyone at the solidarity house got their 3% bonus equal??? my a** #2 we aproved you to dip into our strike fund to help with organizing why have we only orgainzed less than 500 members with all the money spent? remember Bon Kings "(Wiz kids) the only wizzing, is them on themselves!!!! In the same time frame the IBEW has organized over 4000 members with 25% of the money used that we spent on the 400. Hell I know for a fact that a stamping plant in Alabama has sought out the UAW for representation, and have been ignored!!!! they gave the rep a full copy of names and addresses of each employee that works there (all 560 people) the rep claim he has AL, FL, and MS to service so he doesn't have the time or resourses to work on it at this time??????WTF!!!!! We need the south to be organized for us to be safe in the North!!!!!! How about every retiree of the IUAW give up their dental and vision! then we will talk. Lets put a stop to all the bonus's paid to the IUAW retiree's when they retire. People I am Damn proud to say that I am a UAW member, but at the same time embaressed to have the jack a**'s at solidarity house looking out for my best interest!!! We gave up alot to turn this Company around and now you want to screw the retiree's when we gave them a promise when they retired???? No more give backs!!! Time to change our strategy on organizing!!! Folks we are the UAW... if the IUAW reps are not looking out for us we MUST unite and take back what is rightfully ours. Sorry to all the grammar mistakes in advance!!!

While your facts may or may not be all there, I for one can see the gist of your beefs and generally agree. We will know by the end of the month, but if any more concessions come about, I will be 100% against them. Retirees will be losing more than enough with VEBA. Can anyone tell me if Chrysler ever gave back their 3% raise back when we puked it up a couple yrs ago ?

[chriper]

It is nice that you have all your facts straight..... ......please do some research before you open your mouth!

 

 

i hit the reply button ,and all i could think is,HELL YES I WANT TO REPLY,,,you arrogant ass,if you have the facts

then why arent you sharing with us the members??? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN CUT OTHERS DOWN LIKE YOU ARE BETTER THAN THEM?/ your name must be joel g. cause your arrogance reekes of a true asshole

Edited August 6, 2009 by chriper

[lquidspine]

While your facts may or may not be all there, I for one can see the gist of your beefs and generally agree. We will know by the end of the month, but if any more concessions come about, I will be 100% against them. Retirees will be losing more than enough with VEBA. Can anyone tell me if Chrysler ever gave back their 3% raise back when we puked it up a couple yrs ago ?

No, GM and Chrysler did not start VEBA until the 2007 contract Ford started restructuring back in 2005.

 

Chrysler was getting passed/sold around like a 2 cent hooker so they didn't restructure when market share had first signs on a downturn, GM was to big (ego's) to believe that they would not rebound after the down market. Ford did restructure earlier simply because they where a smaller company, reality hit them first to be honest thats why they did not need the bankruptcy loans.

 

Read the 2007 modifications agreement that was passed earlier this year, just as the JSP committee had the power to make 'adjustments' (hint JSP was suspended until the concessions where passed). The VEBA committee has the same power to 'adjust' distribution and use of the VEBA trust *clue* expect retiree dental and vision to be gone no later than March 2010.

 

 

I am just as pissed about the 3% raises as you are bro, but vent in the right direction tell your local Constitutional Convention Delegate how pissed you are. Because they are the ones sucking on the IUAW rep's nuts and they are the ones that raised and eventually passed that motion at the last Con Con.

 

 

IUAW gives up the right to strike and makes an agreement to allow arbitration for the next contract we might as well all live in a right to work state, the UAW will at that point have no use to any auto worker.

 

Just my opinion though

 

 

I will actually add that to my sig about the retiree vision and dental and the time table I believe it will be gone by, just to see how it all plays out and i know i will forget by then.

[chriper]

No, GM and Chrysler did not start VEBA until the 2007 contract Ford started restructuring back in 2005.

 

Chrysler was getting passed/sold around like a 2 cent hooker so they didn't restructure when market share had first signs on a downturn, GM was to big (ego's) to believe that they would not rebound after the down market. Ford did restructure earlier simply because they where a smaller company, reality hit them first to be honest thats why they did not need the bankruptcy loans.

 

Read the 2007 modifications agreement that was passed earlier this year, just as the JSP committee had the power to make 'adjustments' (hint JSP was suspended until the concessions where passed). The VEBA committee has the same power to 'adjust' distribution and use of the VEBA trust *clue* expect retiree dental and vision to be gone no later than March 2010.

 

i believe you are right ..dent and vis for retirees will be gone very soon,,but i also think all retirees will be forced into a single source program,,like anthem,,with higher copays and no office copays{you pay whole on office visit}

I am just as pissed about the 3% raises as you are bro, but vent in the right direction tell your local Constitutional Convention Delegate how pissed you are. Because they are the ones sucking on the IUAW rep's nuts and they are the ones that raised and eventually passed that motion at the last Con Con.

 

 

IUAW gives up the right to strike and makes an agreement to allow arbitration for the next contract we might as well all live in a right to work state, the UAW will at that point have no use to any auto worker.

 

Just my opinion though

 

 

I will actually add that to my sig about the retiree vision and dental and the time table I believe it will be gone by, just to see how it all plays out and i know i will forget by then.

[chriper]

i hit the reply button ,and all i could think is,HELL YES I WANT TO REPLY,,,you arrogant ass,if you have the facts

then why arent you sharing with us the members??? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN CUT OTHERS DOWN LIKE YOU ARE BETTER THAN THEM?/ your name must be joel g. cause your arrogance reekes of a true asshole

 

 

what a ass you are cappy,,,you magnificent caring for only you shows thru,,true

[Captain723]

what a ass you are cappy,,,you magnificent caring for only you shows thru,,true

Hey whats up crapper.....couple things assclown

 

 

1st 3% raises...how many fking times does this have to be discussed before people realize....the IUAW agreement follows the GM agreement only 1 yr behind to make sure that they align themselves and to get through negotiations before they sit down and negotiate. For instance GM negotiated in 2007, the IUAW negotiated 2008. We got our 3% in 2007, they got theirs in 2008. They didn't get anything that we didn't!! :beatdeadhorse:

 

2nd organizing 500 since the 34th Con Con...where in the fk did that number come from??

 

3rd What rep was talked too about organizing a plant of 500??? The organizing process takes months if not yrs to organize a location. Have you ever been on an organizing campaign??? Didn't think so, but if you have, that is the last thing that goes on in organizing. They give them the tools and assistance to organize themselves. There are many things that have to happen,they evaluate the leaders, they evaluate the interest, they train those who stand out or as many as possible, they train them on company anti union campaigns, they learn them the laws that protect them in organizing, they help them file proper paperwork with the company and state, interview and hold meetings prior to the actual organizing drive and then they take it to a vote....not a weekend thing assclown!!

 

4th what bonus is paid to a retiree can you please explain that....they get their retirement and 401k, they also take up a coloection for those retiring to help pay for their cost of a party, but that is done between each department on their own. So what else you got assclown, I would be interested in knowing??

[Monroe B Gone]

It is nice that you have all your facts straight..... ......please do some research before you open your mouth!

 

Ok I did leave a few fact out like lets see......Hummm Capt...The veba was to be funded with ford stock at a set value of $2.00 a share regardless of the market value plus or minus, when the agreement was made ford stock was trading at $1.80 a share. Now that it is higher the IUAW has allowed ford to fund at the current market value and puts all the risk back on the backs of the retiree's. Seems pretty much one sided to me. We already traded cash for Stock wasn't that enough?? We all know how the stock can bounce up and down, why should we risk our future, we had a pretty good thing going with the set price. We stood pretty good in the risk to reward formula, now it's back to where we assume all the risk once again. I guess you might of took the wiz kid thing a bit personal but the truth is, not enough new members equals risky future for the long run of the uaw. Sooner or later we will all retire, then what??? Capt'n you have a couple of choices, #1 you can go with the flow and be a yes man or #2 you could stand up in a rational way and look out for all our futures (yours, mine, our fathers and mothers, and our next generation) to be honest with you I always thought you would be strong enough to take the #2 route but the jury's still out on that one. Quote "what is right is not always the most popular, as what is popular is not always right"

[Captain723]

Ok I did leave a few fact out like lets see......Hummm Capt...The veba was to be funded with ford stock at a set value of $2.00 a share regardless of the market value plus or minus, when the agreement was made ford stock was trading at $1.80 a share. Now that it is higher the IUAW has allowed ford to fund at the current market value and puts all the risk back on the backs of the retiree's. Seems pretty much one sided to me. We already traded cash for Stock wasn't that enough?? We all know how the stock can bounce up and down, why should we risk our future, we had a pretty good thing going with the set price. We stood pretty good in the risk to reward formula, now it's back to where we assume all the risk once again. I guess you might of took the wiz kid thing a bit personal but the truth is, not enough new members equals risky future for the long run of the uaw. Sooner or later we will all retire, then what??? Capt'n you have a couple of choices, #1 you can go with the flow and be a yes man or #2 you could stand up in a rational way and look out for all our futures (yours, mine, our fathers and mothers, and our next generation) to be honest with you I always thought you would be strong enough to take the #2 route but the jury's still out on that one. Quote "what is right is not always the most popular, as what is popular is not always right"

The ford stock was a risk, but was always fully funded....Ford veba was only changed to give the money in smaller portions more often, but the final timing and $ amount was the same...different than GM/Chrysler's who is given most stock options. Ford did cash out and give cash instead of stock options....that was always what we wanted to begin with...now would the cash option have been better...certainly, but the reaason stock was an option was because they didn't have money....they ponied up and said that they will pay cash...stock could dump in a week or 2 so it is still less of a risk to our retiree benefits. Again once they get it they could not sell immidiately. Just like winning the lotto, do you take the cash or hope you don't die and take the payments??

I am no yes man, but I do keep a open mind and try to look at a bigger picture. Dude, they will be replacing us with entry level wages, which in return allows them to save more money for our retirement. The new employee retirement has been restructured to again save the company money and to allow company contributions into a 401k so that our future and current retirees are taken care of. Let me tell you this, we are almost at a level where the company feels we were going to be...36k traditional blue. It is all up from here, incentives, 0%financing, leasing....alll this will be back in place in the near future and total vehicle sales in US will be back up over 12 million units and there is no way that they will be able to run with the current number of workers...so by this time next year they will have 10k entry level workers (a bit of a stretch). Just my view!! :shades:

[dark270]

it would be nice if the things were listed thoughtfully and not in screaming rant form. All that was missing was the constant capital letters.

 

Leave all the name calling and kindergarten shit out and discuss.

 

 

that's funny, maybe you should follow your own advice?

[Furious1Auto]

No, GM and Chrysler did not start VEBA until the 2007 contract Ford started restructuring back in 2005.

 

Chrysler was getting passed/sold around like a 2 cent hooker so they didn't restructure when market share had first signs on a downturn, GM was to big (ego's) to believe that they would not rebound after the down market. Ford did restructure earlier simply because they where a smaller company, reality hit them first to be honest thats why they did not need the bankruptcy loans.

 

Read the 2007 modifications agreement that was passed earlier this year, just as the JSP committee had the power to make 'adjustments' (hint JSP was suspended until the concessions where passed). The VEBA committee has the same power to 'adjust' distribution and use of the VEBA trust *clue* expect retiree dental and vision to be gone no later than March 2010.

 

 

I am just as pissed about the 3% raises as you are bro, but vent in the right direction tell your local Constitutional Convention Delegate how pissed you are. Because they are the ones sucking on the IUAW rep's nuts and they are the ones that raised and eventually passed that motion at the last Con Con.

 

 

IUAW gives up the right to strike and makes an agreement to allow arbitration for the next contract we might as well all live in a right to work state, the UAW will at that point have no use to any auto worker.

 

Just my opinion though

 

 

I will actually add that to my sig about the retiree vision and dental and the time table I believe it will be gone by, just to see how it all plays out and i know i will forget by then.

 

 

I had doubts with the VEBA, and fears of it's premature insolvency when it was initially proposed. Now our bankrupt competitors have been given an escape form it's initial commitment levels VIA our governments intervention. If this happens, it will just accelerate what I saw coming when we first agreed.

 

What happens when the funding for your medical benefits fall short? You get less coverage, with more cost to you. You all can say otherwise, but I have seen it happen with my own eyes. My father had a government job, he worked as a policeman for the city of Lorain until he retired. His initial cost when he retired was $0 in Premiums, $0 in Co-pays, And $0 for prescriptions. Now he pays $80.00 in premiums, $50.00 in co-pays, and up to $25.00 for prescription co-pays. These were gradual increases that happened over a period of years.

 

That is a far cry from what he was promised upon retirement, and if not for being a vet, and having access to VA hospitals he would be buried in medical bills. I give no-shits what anyone else's view is on social health care, and I have heard all of the arguments from people who believe the hype that the insurers put out. Until we have it, people that have worked their entire lives will have everything they have worked for stripped away if they get sick.

 

 

If the company/Union wants to shed the liability, finish the push for national health care. We are the only industrialized nation out of 20 that does not have it. It is going to cost! The insurance companies will lose the billions they bilk from the public, and private corporations, and without they're inflation we will see what the true market will bare for medical treatment. My buddy Jim has had 3 eye operations over a period of a few years each cost $75,000 a piece. Am I the only one that thinks that that is a little expensive for a procedure that takes 2 hours?

[OAC_Paint]

The ford stock was a risk, but was always fully funded....Ford veba was only changed to give the money in smaller portions more often, but the final timing and $ amount was the same...different than GM/Chrysler's who is given most stock options. Ford did cash out and give cash instead of stock options....that was always what we wanted to begin with...now would the cash option have been better...certainly, but the reaason stock was an option was because they didn't have money....they ponied up and said that they will pay cash...stock could dump in a week or 2 so it is still less of a risk to our retiree benefits. Again once they get it they could not sell immidiately. Just like winning the lotto, do you take the cash or hope you don't die and take the payments??

I am no yes man, but I do keep a open mind and try to look at a bigger picture. Dude, they will be replacing us with entry level wages, which in return allows them to save more money for our retirement. The new employee retirement has been restructured to again save the company money and to allow company contributions into a 401k so that our future and current retirees are taken care of. Let me tell you this, we are almost at a level where the company feels we were going to be...36k traditional blue. It is all up from here, incentives, 0%financing, leasing....alll this will be back in place in the near future and total vehicle sales in US will be back up over 12 million units and there is no way that they will be able to run with the current number of workers...so by this time next year they will have 10k entry level workers (a bit of a stretch). Just my view!! :shades:

 

 

Your UAW economist is either absolutetly terrible or on the take and should be fired immediately.

[Captain723]

Your UAW economist is either absolutetly terrible or on the take and should be fired immediately.

I said it was just my view asshole!

[whereswaldo]

Ok I did leave a few fact out like lets see......Hummm Capt...The veba was to be funded with ford stock at a set value of $2.00 a share regardless of the market value plus or minus, when the agreement was made ford stock was trading at $1.80 a share. Now that it is higher the IUAW has allowed ford to fund at the current market value and puts all the risk back on the backs of the retiree's. Seems pretty much one sided to me. We already traded cash for Stock wasn't that enough?? We all know how the stock can bounce up and down, why should we risk our future, we had a pretty good thing going with the set price. We stood pretty good in the risk to reward formula, now it's back to where we assume all the risk once again. I guess you might of took the wiz kid thing a bit personal but the truth is, not enough new members equals risky future for the long run of the uaw. Sooner or later we will all retire, then what??? Capt'n you have a couple of choices, #1 you can go with the flow and be a yes man or #2 you could stand up in a rational way and look out for all our futures (yours, mine, our fathers and mothers, and our next generation) to be honest with you I always thought you would be strong enough to take the #2 route but the jury's still out on that one. Quote "what is right is not always the most popular, as what is popular is not always right"

Touche' !!!

[whereswaldo]

It is all up from here, incentives, 0%financing, leasing....alll this will be back in place in the near future and total vehicle sales in US will be back up over 12 million units and there is no way that they will be able to run with the current number of workers...so by this time next year they will have 10k entry level workers (a bit of a stretch). Just my view!! :shades:

Crack anyone ? Once clunkers ends, the monthly rate will be back down where it was or slightly better. It sure wont be 12 mil in the next yr. 10k 2nd tier will have to be because we are insourcing a ton of work(dont hold your breathe), not from sales. Of course ....just my view....LOL....

[Captain723]

Crack anyone ? Once clunkers ends, the monthly rate will be back down where it was or slightly better. It sure wont be 12 mil in the next yr. 10k 2nd tier will have to be because we are insourcing a ton of work(dont hold your breathe), not from sales. Of course ....just my view....LOL....

I don't use the cheap stuff!!

Over 2 thousand that have been insourced since 2007 and another 1500 identified, not counting 20% that they could have once they start hiring!!!

[Furious1Auto]

Crack anyone ? Once clunkers ends, the monthly rate will be back down where it was or slightly better. It sure wont be 12 mil in the next yr. 10k 2nd tier will have to be because we are insourcing a ton of work(dont hold your breathe), not from sales. Of course ....just my view....LOL....

 

 

Captain is a soldier, and you at the very least you have to appreciate that he is effective. He understands the language, and is sometimes abrasive in his delivery, but he does know the motives behind his superiors decisions. You can kill the messenger, but he tells it like he is told it is.

 

Cap, you have to understand the importance s of this issue. The concessions are done, they have given enough. I have my own interests, and I still have a significant stake in the company, but they have given to the point it is going to cost the people that have sacrificed to gain what is being given back. At this point I gain every time my brothers/sisters lose, but there has to be an end. If the managers want to see further gains in profitability it has to be through their sacrifices, and not the UAW's.

 

I love it when there is a increase in stock prices, but the retirees are already going to lose with or without a contract reopening.

 

I do respect you, and will debate this issue in private. I also have my motives, but there has to be a point where you realize that even though you may gain it is costing someone else. Just how I see it!

Edited August 9, 2009 by Furious1Auto

[Die Wahrheit]

Ok I did leave a few fact out like lets see......Hummm Capt...The veba was to be funded with ford stock at a set value of $2.00 a share regardless of the market value plus or minus, when the agreement was made ford stock was trading at $1.80 a share. Now that it is higher the IUAW has allowed ford to fund at the current market value and puts all the risk back on the backs of the retiree's. Seems pretty much one sided to me. We already traded cash for Stock wasn't that enough?? We all know how the stock can bounce up and down, why should we risk our future, we had a pretty good thing going with the set price. We stood pretty good in the risk to reward formula, now it's back to where we assume all the risk once again. I guess you might of took the wiz kid thing a bit personal but the truth is, not enough new members equals risky future for the long run of the uaw. Sooner or later we will all retire, then what??? Capt'n you have a couple of choices, #1 you can go with the flow and be a yes man or #2 you could stand up in a rational way and look out for all our futures (yours, mine, our fathers and mothers, and our next generation) to be honest with you I always thought you would be strong enough to take the #2 route but the jury's still out on that one. Quote "what is right is not always the most popular, as what is popular is not always right"

 

 

You cant be serious. Dude do some freakn research before you let this nonsense spill out of your piehole. You cannot possibly be this freakn dumb. Get your facts straight bubba!

[OAC_Paint]

I said it was just my view asshole!

 

Your view is irrelevant. Some of us uneducated grunts have quadrupled on our stocks with just a little foresight as to where the other 2 were going and Ford's future line up/prospects. Your UAW economist(s) have cost you billions, don't defend them..Fire the fuckers. Asshole.

[whereswaldo]

Captain is a soldier, and you at the very least you have to appreciate that he is effective. He understands the language, and is sometimes abrasive in his delivery, but he does know the motives behind his superiors decisions. You can kill the messenger, but tells it like he is told it is.

 

Cap, you have to understand the importance s of this issue. The concessions are done, they have given enough. I have my own interests, and I still have a significant stake in the company, but they have given to the point it is going to cost the people that have sacrificed to gain what is being given back. At this point I gain every time my brothers/sisters lose, but there has to be an end. If the managers want to see further gains in profitability it has to be through their sacrifices, and not the UAW's.

 

I love it when there is a increase in stock prices, but the retirees are already going to lose with or without a contract reopening.

 

I do respect you, and will debate this issue in private. I also have my motives, but there has to be a point where you realize that even though you may gain it is costing someone else. Just how I see it!

Trust me...me and Cappy know each other fairly well. And what issue are you referring to that has to do with 12mil in sales and 10k 2nd tier ??? If not for clunkers, see where sales would have been. And 10k second class union brethren in the next yr ??Unless they plan on moving Fusion and Fiesta to the states, 10k is a shit load of plants. So coke for everyone...make mine a cola.

[whereswaldo]

I don't use the cheap stuff!!

Over 2 thousand that have been insourced since 2007 and another 1500 identified, not counting 20% that they could have once they start hiring!!!

And how many of those are currently 2nd tier employees ?? The Company/IUAW can slaughter hogs all day long ID'ing but its nada til they get rid of more Blue. The days of 15-16 mil sales are over. Even at 12 mil which will be about 25-33% increase over presently, Ford mkt share will have to keep rising. Take a look again at that top 10 of clunker sales. Doesnt look very home grown to me. Hey Cap...I dont mean to look so negative but just like home prices, that $300k home 3-4 yrs ago thats worth maybe 180 now is not going to pop back up by the grace of God. Thats its new value, new ceiling. Its about jobs and credit markets from the consumer standpoint. And thats going to take more time to correct.