NEW CONTRACT

[Die Wahrheit]

I will be at the Region 1A meeting as well as Local 600 when they have their sales pitch, I will be just as vocal for the same reasons I am on the net.

 

I don't hide who I am on a secure site but when outside shit stirrers like you come on here you have no fucking business knowing who I am and such.

 

Now that I have answered your question care to do the the honor of the question I have asked of you several times now that you keep ducking ?

 

 

You didnt answer my question you just proved me right.. You are a reactor.. What the hell are you going to go to region 1A now for, there is already a tenative contract. YOu knew they were having discussion talks why werent you makiing it known to your union then that you were opposing it. Why werent you marching on region 1A then. All that is left to do now is vote. Once again your are reacting to something. You need to start showiing initiative and getting ahead of the ball. The contract will pass like always because you still havent learned how things work around here. I have been trying to teach you guys something, and since you guys say you read my post maybe you will remember this one. And I quote myself "You Still Dont Get IT" Remember that. I thought by now you would get it...

[TheEagle]

Good questions, but wrong answers.

 

1)Has any good come from the last two agreements? Really? You think nothing good came from them? IUAW fought to keep the Companmy running. VEBA has been HUGE in keeping the doors open to almost every plant. What is keeping Ford in buisiness & away from the bailout? These changes saved the Company BILLIONS. Just think about the billions lost & how much worse it would be without the acounting treatment the Company was able to take. It is hard to understand so most people don't really think about it, but all the Negotiators really came through with a landmark agreement that saved a lot for everyone.

 

2) Is Ford at a disadvantage to the competition? YES. GM & Chrysler don't have loans due to repay like Ford does. Government & bankruptcy erased all of theirs just like that. And don't forget, Ford helped pay for them to come out of bankruptcy. Think of all the mom & pops, workers comp cases & people all over the company that were screwed when GM & Chrysler bailed on all their obligations. These guys are the worst of integrity. Ford kept their promises to suppliers, banks, employees (including over a billion of investment in the US - don't forget). and still has a lot of $$ to pay., Maybe more than we are going to make off of our great products.

 

3) Is the Company unprofitable? YES. ?? Do you think otherwise?

 

4) Have managers taken concessions equal to the average UAW member? YES. Have you ever talked to a salaried employee? There were no buyouts. They were fired with no choice, no advance notice. The # of salaried employees was reduced the same amount as hourly, but much less costly & barely a parachute. You are giving the UAW NO credit for the safety they have negotiated for us to keep our safety net & reduce numbers in a humane way. Salaried has had no pay increases over the last few years, matching hourly. Benefits are reduced more severely than UAW workers. Pensions are gone for new hires years ago. Retiree healthcare? Dental? Vision? fuhgeddaboutit

 

Let's get all the details before getting too worried. Remember the UAW has done well over the years negotiating tough in good times. We need to focus on this AFTER the company gets through the tough times and is making money -- which is not yet, but maybe 2011. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot before then. ANd get all the details before making a decision

 

 

Jeff? You sound just like our Pres...

Edited October 10, 2009 by TheEagle

[lquidspine]

Good questions, but wrong answers.

 

1)Has any good come from the last two agreements? Really? You think nothing good came from them? IUAW fought to keep the Companmy running. VEBA has been HUGE in keeping the doors open to almost every plant. What is keeping Ford in buisiness & away from the bailout? These changes saved the Company BILLIONS. Just think about the billions lost & how much worse it would be without the acounting treatment the Company was able to take. It is hard to understand so most people don't really think about it, but all the Negotiators really came through with a landmark agreement that saved a lot for everyone.

True to a degree a few points

1-past contracts (in good times) should have included tougher language for funding retiree health care and pensions, both funds are/where way underfunded. So in essence the UAW by not addressing this issue we have bailed out the companies for breach of contractual obligations past and present.

2) Is Ford at a disadvantage to the competition? YES. GM & Chrysler don't have loans due to repay like Ford does. Government & bankruptcy erased all of theirs just like that. And don't forget, Ford helped pay for them to come out of bankruptcy. Think of all the mom & pops, workers comp cases & people all over the company that were screwed when GM & Chrysler bailed on all their obligations. These guys are the worst of integrity. Ford kept their promises to suppliers, banks, employees (including over a billion of investment in the US - don't forget). and still has a lot of $$ to pay., Maybe more than we are going to make off of our great products.

They do have loans , they just have a different loan office example

3) Is the Company unprofitable? YES. ?? Do you think otherwise?

Show me a car company within the current market that is...even Toyota has taken government loans from Japan example

 

4) Have managers taken concessions equal to the average UAW member? YES. Have you ever talked to a salaried employee? There were no buyouts. They were fired with no choice, no advance notice. The # of salaried employees was reduced the same amount as hourly, but much less costly & barely a parachute. You are giving the UAW NO credit for the safety they have negotiated for us to keep our safety net & reduce numbers in a humane way. Salaried has had no pay increases over the last few years, matching hourly. Benefits are reduced more severely than UAW workers. Pensions are gone for new hires years ago. Retiree healthcare? Dental? Vision? fuhgeddaboutit

Salaried where reduced at 18% while the hourly workforce cut at 21%....salaried had a buyout window as well example

I will add that salaried do not pay almost 60$ a month to protect them either...well most do not anyway.

 

Let's get all the details before getting too worried. Remember the UAW has done well over the years negotiating tough in good times. We need to focus on this AFTER the company gets through the tough times and is making money -- which is not yet, but maybe 2011. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot before then. ANd get all the details before making a decision

The few details that are already out should be enough for any hourly worker not to support this not even a year after the modification to a contract that was barely a year old.

 

Afterall this is not 1950 information is so easily obtainable it should scare some.

[400member]

No that is the most intelligent post I have read from you ever!

 

How did he do it??? Arbitration by lawhas to draw decisions from the elements of the agreement and the intentions of the parties. Those intentions are usually found in past arbitrations. Now, gong forward, arbitration by a large percentegae favors the company for acouple of reasons.

 

1. they keep a better paper trail on individual employees.
   
2. they keep records of grievances and disiplnary action at many levels (plant/region/company) that will support their positions.
   
3. they have floors of labor relation who's job it is to develop books to standardize LR applications and intent drawn from Arbitrations.
   
4. Plant labor reps are more capable to write for arbitrations vs. union reps who really are not prepared for the practice, leaving the union at a disadvantage from the get go.
   
5. the union does very little to train, support, or develop plant reps in writing or arbitration practices.
   
6. members fail to demand reps be capable in writing or arbitration practice--it's usualy good ole boy elections.
   

Arbitration is not your friend as future so surprisingly says.

[lquidspine]

You didnt answer my question you just proved me right.. You are a reactor.. What the hell are you going to go to region 1A now for, there is already a tenative contract. YOu knew they were having discussion talks why werent you makiing it known to your union then that you were opposing it. Why werent you marching on region 1A then. All that is left to do now is vote. Once again your are reacting to something. You need to start showiing initiative and getting ahead of the ball. The contract will pass like always because you still havent learned how things work around here. I have been trying to teach you guys something, and since you guys say you read my post maybe you will remember this one. And I quote myself "You Still Dont Get IT" Remember that. I thought by now you would get it...

Apparently you do not get it... I respect the chain of order , regardless if I always agree or not.

 

My counsel delegates spoke out against this when they meet on August 5th, I will get my time to speak at the Region 1A meeting when they try to sell this bullshit to the elected officers for the Region...and best of all the rank and file will prove to the negotiators that the Counsel members where not lying when they said they can not support nor will the membership support any concessions at this time.

 

Care to answer my question now or are you waiting for the mods to ban you entirely ?

[TheEagle]

How did he do it??? Arbitration by lawhas to draw decisions from the elements of the agreement and the intentions of the parties. Those intentions are usually found in past arbitrations. Now, gong forward, arbitration by a large percentegae favors the company for acouple of reasons.

 

1. they keep a better paper trail on individual employees.
   
2. they keep records of grievances and disiplnary action at many levels (plant/region/company) that will support their positions.
   
3. they have floors of labor relation who's job it is to develop books to standardize LR applications and intent drawn from Arbitrations.
   
4. Plant labor reps are more capable to write for arbitrations vs. union reps who really are not prepared for the practice, leaving the union at a disadvantage from the get go.
   
5. the union does very little to train, support, or develop plant reps in writing or arbitration practices.
   
6. members fail to demand reps be capable in writing or arbitration practice--it's usualy good ole boy elections.
   

Arbitration is not your friend as future so surprisingly says.

 

I agree, but your missing a simple point...arbitration for wage improvements and benifits ONLY!!!!!

[Die Wahrheit]

Apparently you do not get it... I respect the chain of order , regardless if I always agree or not.

 

My counsel delegates spoke out against this when they meet on August 5th, I will get my time to speak at the Region 1A meeting when they try to sell this bullshit to the elected officers for the Region...and best of all the rank and file will prove to the negotiators that the Counsel members where not lying when they said they can not support nor will the membership support any concessions at this time.

 

Care to answer my question now or are you waiting for the mods to ban you entirely ?

 

 

No one is going to ban me idiot. So stop your complaining. Before that happensEveryone will be banned trust me. You have no clue who you are talking to and its probably good for you that you dont. So try that bullshit with someone else. The right people who mean anything know exctly who i am.

[Stugots]

Die is Marky Fields.

 

He's just pissed at all of us because he lost his cool plane rides.

[Die Wahrheit]

Die is Marky Fields.

 

He's just pissed at all of us because he lost his cool plane rides.

 

 

not quite but close! Darn good guess my friend!!!!

[BTV to SHV Transferee]

Isn't it true that union members can choose to donate their yearly dues to a charity? Let us all do this and see what int thinks then.

 

The answer is NO!

 

You do have the right to have refunded to you each month the amount of your dues that pays for political purposes. Any amount that goes toward the collective bargaining process will not be refunded.

 

If you go to your Local, tell them you want to see the breakdown of where your dues dollars go, and they will have this available to you at all times, due to a NLRB decision, you will see that less than 1% of your monthly dues are given to a political cause.

 

Lets use even numbers here:

 

If your dues were $50.00, then only $.50 = 1% would be refunded to you. Now are you really going to go after the $.50?

 

But, it is your right to have it refunded!

 

Btv to Shv

[lquidspine]

No one is going to ban me idiot. So stop your complaining. Before that happensEveryone will be banned trust me. You have no clue who you are talking to and its probably good for you that you dont. So try that bullshit with someone else. The right people who mean anything know exctly who i am.

I really do not care who you are, prove your an employee or be gone.

 

If you own the site and drop me so what I will post in other forums BON is the not the only site on the net. Empty threats Die, just as you have no idea who you are talking too who gives a shit.

[Stugots]

We can't fight every battle.

 

We must pick our spots.

 

We don't have the language or even the highlights in front of us yet.

 

We haven't had explanations or meetings yet.

 

Even though I feel strongly that Ron and King have strayed from principles of our union I have faith in this membership to weigh the positives and negatives and decide if this is a battle to fight.

 

No assumptions are good assumptions.

 

We can read the wording and interpret intentions of language on this strike clause.

 

If it's as the Eagle has relayed to us (confined to wages and benefits) it may not be the end of the world.

 

We need to put product and job security number 1. Number 2 we have to take care of our retirees.

 

If this contract modification leaves the retirees as they are and gives us actual work that is 2 positives for us.

[BTV to SHV Transferee]

How did he do it??? Arbitration by lawhas to draw decisions from the elements of the agreement and the intentions of the parties. Those intentions are usually found in past arbitrations. Now, gong forward, arbitration by a large percentegae favors the company for acouple of reasons.

 

1. they keep a better paper trail on individual employees.
   
2. they keep records of grievances and disiplnary action at many levels (plant/region/company) that will support their positions.
   
3. they have floors of labor relation who's job it is to develop books to standardize LR applications and intent drawn from Arbitrations.
   
4. Plant labor reps are more capable to write for arbitrations vs. union reps who really are not prepared for the practice, leaving the union at a disadvantage from the get go.
   
5. the union does very little to train, support, or develop plant reps in writing or arbitration practices.
   
6. members fail to demand reps be capable in writing or arbitration practice--it's usualy good ole boy elections.
   

Arbitration is not your friend as future so surprisingly says.

 

Wow, you are very mis-informed. When the UAW goes into arbitration, a team of lawyers prepares the questions to be asked and how to be answered. They play devils advocate and research any possible answer the arbitrator or opposing side may have. Usually the INTL has the arbitration team do the arbitrating anyway. Then after they argue the case before the arbitrator, the team of lawyers has to write a brief argument for the arbitrator, kinda like closing arguments in a trial. Then the arbitrator will take the testimony from each side, do research for or against, make a ruling and state why the ruling was made. Usually the losing side then has to pay for the arbitration services.

 

Been there..................

 

Btv to Shv

[Die Wahrheit]

I really do not care who you are, prove your an employee or be gone.

 

If you own the site and drop me so what I will post in other forums BON is the not the only site on the net. Empty threats Die, just as you have no idea who you are talking too who gives a shit.

 

I dont have to prove anything to you i already stated that I was employed by the company as well am i a investor. So what more do you want from me. Does that make you happy

[homerhero]

hey TheEagle, Have you heard anything about more buyouts for Ford workers?

[Die Wahrheit]

I really do not care who you are, prove your an employee or be gone.

 

If you own the site and drop me so what I will post in other forums BON is the not the only site on the net. Empty threats Die, just as you have no idea who you are talking too who gives a shit.

 

 

I wouldnt dare drop you from this site, i enjoying beating up on you...

[meuaw]

Look the only vote we can give is a NO vote. these are the same promises they made before, they said they would not be back 6 months later their back. We must send a message to them that say we have no more to give. The changes to skilled trades will help eliminate 40% or more of our trades. We hurt the new hires. and maybe we get 1000.00 if they make their goals. come on people wake up. Next the company will want our first born to work for free and the union will say its ok. Well I say enough is enough. Give up your right to strike give up your bargining power what little is left just vote no.

[lquidspine]

I wouldnt dare drop you from this site, i enjoying beating up on you...

Lol appeared to me that everyone on the site did that to you, perception is a bitch isn't it.

 

dont have to prove anything to you i already stated that I was employed by the company as well am i a investor. So what more do you want from me. Does that make you happy

 

Almost: hourly or salaried?

 

Because honestly regardless whatever you supposedly are you are mixed up, you call people here brother, but you scream salaried mindset. Are you really Captian? just throwing that out there.

 

You have only claimed to be an investor from anything I have seen, dumping money into the the leader in the D3 does not qualify you as an employee.

Edited October 10, 2009 by lquidspine

[TheEagle]

hey TheEagle, Have you heard anything about more buyouts for Ford workers?

 

 

No sure did'nt...I did hear somthing about they wanted electric to get thier chance at a buyout eventually. But that was just some ramblings..I will ask him tomorrow, I am having brkfast with him for the 411 in better detail.

[Furious1Auto]

Well for one new work is all over this agreement..2 assembly plants that have no product now do have product..

 

Sterling Romeo Livonia Rawsonville cleveland milan etc...... all have new work guarenteed.

 

More empty promises, and once the next quarterly profit report hits after a ratification people will be rubbing their a-ses from the f-cking they just got. At the same time, they will be able to console their selves when they read in the news that Ford decided to build their product in Mexico. Well at least then they can then walk around the empty floor space where they were going to have a new body shop built. Who is that stupid to trip on the same rock 3 times?

[TheEagle]

More empty promises, and once the next quarterly profit report hits after a ratification people will be rubbing their a-ses from the f-cking they just got. At the same time, they will be able to console their selves when they read in the news that Ford decided to build their product in Mexico. Well at least then they can then walk around the empty floor space where they were going to have a new body shop built. Who is that stupid to trip on the same rock 3 times?

 

We still have the right to strike if the do not give us the products to keep our plants open!! So what would be the issue? OHAP? Walton Hills?

 

Cleveland? they all are getting new product from what I was told.

[Furious1Auto]

We still have the right to strike if the do not give us the products to keep our plants open!! So what would be the issue? OHAP? Walton Hills?

 

Cleveland? they all are getting new product from what I was told.

 

Yeah they said that in the 07' agreement, and the modification. Where is the body shop? Hey how about the modifications get voted down, and we resume these talks after a strike authority vote during the regularly scheduled negotiations in 2011. Ford had their chance, they lead the negotiations for the concessionary modification.

 

After rereading your post I realized if our plants have no product, how effective will the strike be then? "Well if you don't give me a product, I refuse to work"! That is a real strong argument LOL!

Edited October 10, 2009 by Furious1Auto

[400member]

Wow, you are very mis-informed. When the UAW goes into arbitration, a team of lawyers prepares the questions to be asked and how to be answered. They play devils advocate and research any possible answer the arbitrator or opposing side may have. Usually the INTL has the arbitration team do the arbitrating anyway. Then after they argue the case before the arbitrator, the team of lawyers has to write a brief argument for the arbitrator, kinda like closing arguments in a trial. Then the arbitrator will take the testimony from each side, do research for or against, make a ruling and state why the ruling was made. Usually the losing side then has to pay for the arbitration services.

 

Been there..................

 

Btv to Shv

 

your point is correct only to the intl portion, the begining of any arbitration is the investigation, notes, and first stage. none of this is done by the intl arb dept, which is where I began my comments andended them. if the begining is flawed, the ending results will....

as for your devils adovcate idea, that is just a misnomer in this instance. any lawyers will tell you, you don't go into any action with a question, you don't already have the answer for. how many lawyers are at the pplant level?? again my point was the begininig.

 

the arbitrator does not research for or against- this is cause for reversal. How could you even accept an arbtitrator that already does research for or against?? every arbitrator is suposedto be non-biased, the very basis for using them. she/he must develop the decision based on the contracts contents, and then as you say provide their reasoning, from the elements of the contract.

 

but my point was and is, the company has a huge advantage over the union in any arbitration!! for the reasons stated in previous post.

[400member]

Steve morris post from Van dyke work thread.... Thanks steve.

 

This is just my opinion....First off, why did international even go to the table on behalf of Ford when the local bargaining committees clearly stated they were not in favor of anymore concessions?

second, why is International in such a rush to bring Ford down to Gm's and Chryslers level? Did International not ask us to accept concessions already, under the pretext that it would help in negotiations with gm and chrylers? That didn't turn out so well in my opinion.

Here's an idea, instead of taking Ford down to gm and chryslers level, how about leaving us where we are and trying to get gm and chrysler up to our level once they get back on their feet?

 

This bullshit of parity between GM, Chryler, and Ford for the purpose of contracts is just that...Bullshit. We never had TRUE parity to begin with. Not all of our contracts were identical. Ford did not take governmnet money, we should not fall under the same rules and regulations.

 

Last i heard, Ford was gaining market share and was saposed to be on track back to profitability. Now they want their cake and eat it too. Ford didn't want to lose control of their company and did not take any government money but they want all the benefits of filing for bankruptcy. They sent Joe Heinrichs (SP) from plant to plant with his silver tongue and his scare tactics to set the stage and i'm sure an appointed official from International will be in each plant next trying to convince us this is the right thing to do.

Just remember one thing.... these elected officials from International have no say in this. They are soilders following orders. Even if they do not believe that this is the right thing to do, they must go to our plants and try to sell this if they want to keep their appointed jobs. So i hope people will educate themselves and make a decision based off of what they know- not what this International Rep says.

The international Rep. is going to use the same scare tactics that Joe did when he came to the plant.

I personally will vote no. Until i see that Ford HAS to make more concessions or they will fall to bankruptcy, i feel we have given up more than enough already.

[long donkey]

We still have the right to strike if the do not give us the products to keep our plants open!! So what would be the issue? OHAP? Walton Hills?

 

Cleveland? they all are getting new product from what I was told.

 

You still have not answered any of my questions!

 

I'll make it easy on you, forget about the other questions, show me where in the cba it says you can strike over product commitments.

 

You talk a bunch of crap. Have you read your contract?

 

Try reading art. 5 -strikes, stoppages and lockouts.

That will lead you to art.7 sec. 23 (special procedures - production standard, job security and outside contracting, health and safety and new job rate grievances).

That will lead you to art. 4 sec. 4a (production standards), or art. 4 sec. 8 (job security and outside contracting), or art. 10 sec 4 (heath and safety).

 

You will not find any language to back you ignorance up there.

 

So what are the only three things you can strike over? (since your too lazy to read your contract ask your buddy when you have breakfast)

 

Are you not curious as to why product commitment have not been fulfilled, or why the company is eager to trade these for concessions ?

 

Prove me wrong!

 

You do not understand your own contract, which most workers don't. You make our union weak.

 

I tried to tell you, but you would not listen. You continued to spout off how your buddy did you a favor.

 

This is exactly how we got were we are today. Too lazy to learn your own contract.

 

If you have the balls to do that then you can answer the other questions, then you can apologize, then you can learn your contract and try to do something besides help the company hide the weenie in my brothers and sisters.

 

This is the only way out.

 

You are the reason these things get passed. Too many people fought for what we have for you to piss it away on a promise that you cannot force the company to keep.

 

If by chance you do respond and prove me wrong I will apoligize to you.

Does that sound fair?

 

In solidarity

-Donkey