light comm'l, medium and heavy news

[lfeg]

Quite an acquisition binge there. I am waiting to actually see their emissions system, and how it meets the new standards without urea. And they are seriously going after the vocational market.

 

And since the first of the year, I have seen what looked like a special version of an International heavy medium in snow plow/spreader duty. Out in the snow belt I have seen a few brand new Internationals with what I will call a high mount cab. The Cab sits about a foot higer on the frame than most other Internationals I see, and there are longer front fenders and cab step panels due to this. Actually a pretty good idea, as it puts the driver higher above the plume of snow when plowing for better visibility. But they still look a bit odd that high up.

[Bob Rosadini]

Look at this:

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Navistar-Continues-to-Build-bw-4095807172.html?x=0

 

No mention whatsoever of 'Blue Diamond'. I think that is surprising considering Navistar owns 75% of Blue Diamond.

Again not surprising- if they talk about it in print they would have to use the dreaded "F" word! And they are not about to give "F" any print space.

 

 

IFEG- sure you weren't just looking at a driving front axle set up? Their engines shouldn't have any need for more underhood space ?? or do they? Extra cooling?

[lfeg]

Again not surprising- if they talk about it in print they would have to use the dreaded "F" word! And they are not about to give "F" any print space.

 

 

IFEG- sure you weren't just looking at a driving front axle set up? Their engines shouldn't have any need for more underhood space ?? or do they? Extra cooling?

 

Chassis same as for a standard single axle dump. Non driving beam front axle. First time I saw one I had to look twice, looked like cab was on riser blocks. The state highway dept uses the same trucks, but the state units do not have the raised cab. Both have the same engine driven central hydraulic system for operating plow, spreader, etc. I have not been able to get too close to one, since every time I have seen one it was out working. These trucks are used where they get 120 to 150 inches of snow per season, so they have used some strange lash ups over the years.

[Joe771476]

Jan 2010 sales reports; some highlights by marketshare: Class 7) Int'l 44 percent; Freight 35; Ford 6; Ken & Pete each with about 5. And Bob, Hino only1.53! All the rest are 1 percent or less! Now Class 6) Inter'l 57 percent; Freight 20; Ford 14. Again Bob, Hino only 5 percent! All the remaining 8 mfrs. range from .14 to 1.28 percent! Why even be in the biz? Clearly Ford is in pouncing position if they'd only get their heads out of their rumps!

[Bob Rosadini]

Jan 2010 sales reports; some highlights by marketshare: Class 7) Int'l 44 percent; Freight 35; Ford 6; Ken & Pete each with about 5. And Bob, Hino only1.53! All the rest are 1 percent or less! Now Class 6) Inter'l 57 percent; Freight 20; Ford 14. Again Bob, Hino only 5 percent! All the remaining 8 mfrs. range from .14 to 1.28 percent! Why even be in the biz? Clearly Ford is in pouncing position if they'd only get their heads out of their rumps!

Joe, I agree on those marginal sales that Isuzu, UD etc have. As for Hino, they have to be doing all their volume here in the Northeast. If you base things on what you see on the road, they look like they are a heck of a lot higher than Ford.

[7Mary3]

Remember that Kenworth and Peterbilt are both part of PACCAR, so that puts PACCAR in 3rd. place. Surprising considering what they want for those things and given the state of the economy. Hino currently does very little class 7 as you can see, but they should gain in that segment with their new tandems. More buyers will become aware that Hino competes in the heavier markets. Isuzu should be way off. They are selling off all the leftover GM built models (F series and W series gas models) which have not been manufactured since last July. They are running out of trucks to sell, and their future plans remain shrouded in mystery! I expect they will soon announce a new plant and some new products. I expect Ford to remain very strong in class 4 and 5 IF the new 6.7L Powerstroke turns out to be a good engine. International's new TerraStar could be a threat, and I expect GM to return to class 4 and 5 but probably not before 2012. Ford in class 6 and 7? No idea.

[theDuff]

I expect Ford to remain very strong in class 4 and 5 IF the new 6.7L Powerstroke turns out to be a good engine.

 

 

It looks good. Read my comments in this topic.

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38625-2011-super-duty-starts-at-28020/

[BAM]

Hino is going the other way in a big hurry. A very large part of their gains in the market were due to TFS “buying” the business, a practice that has been stopped after the big shake-up there. TFS has repos everywhere, it’s kind of like Freightliner was back in the Hebe days. The economies of scale really hurt the smaller players in the market when it comes to the new emission standards that the EPA has imposed. The math is pretty simple, the more units that you have to spread the development cost of the EPA mandates and certifications over, the less the cost is per unit. Smaller players trying to compete in big markets have a very hard time being competitive for this reason.

 

As far as GM and the class 4-5 market goes they are done forever. They told their dealers back in 2007 that they would not be building a class 4 or larger truck in 2010; they allocated zero dollars for the 2010 emissions. They said they had 4 options, have Isuzu build it for them, find someone else to build it for them, sell it to someone else, or shut it down. GM has been talking about a “black hole” truck for many years; this is a truck that would fit between the 3500 chassis and the C4500. At this point GM has way bigger fish to fry than getting back into a 30k unit a year total market.

 

Isuzu has already announced the gas chassis is coming back, along with a new 12k GVW NPR chassis with a small fuel efficient diesel engine that is different than the one that will come in the NPRHD-NQR-NRR chassis. They also announced a brand new product that can best be described as a mini walk in or bread truck. The only question at this point is what will replace the 855 cab if anything. The class 6-7 cabover market has been shrinking in size for many years mainly due to the better steering geometry of conventional trucks and economies of scale. Mitsu has also walked away from this and has no plans to return.

 

Many people close to the class 6-8 market still think that Sterling is not the last to go…….

Edited March 27, 2010 by BAM

[Joe771476]

Bob, you're right; judging by what I perceive on the highways, Hino appears to be higher, but I am seeing some new Fords. One question: Can an F750 support a municipal/state hgwy. dump/plow with sander? I could have sworn I saw one in Newington CT a few months ago.

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob, you're right; judging by what I perceive on the highways, Hino appears to be higher, but I am seeing some new Fords. One question: Can an F750 support a municipal/state hgwy. dump/plow with sander? I could have sworn I saw one in Newington CT a few months ago.

Joe- For sure- with a 14,000 lb front and a 23,000 rear the truck comes with a 37,000 lb GVW- and of course the muni market is exempt from the 12 % FET. Town of Ipswich up here has a couple and they are doing well.

[7Mary3]

Joe- For sure- with a 14,000 lb front and a 23,000 rear the truck comes with a 37,000 lb GVW- and of course the muni market is exempt from the 12 % FET. Town of Ipswich up here has a couple and they are doing well.

 

A Cummins ISB pushing around a 37,000 GVW truck? Good luck!

[BAM]

The big reason that the cab on the newer trucks sit higher is because of the additional room needed for EPA stuff, mainly the bigger radiator. I would assume that Navistar really had to jack their cab up because of not using urea to meet 2010 EPA. All of that SCR crap really creates heat....

 

According to our Cummins rep. the new 13L Maxx Force diesel has 11cooling elements on the engine!!

[Bob Rosadini]

A Cummins ISB pushing around a 37,000 GVW truck? Good luck!

Com'on 7M3- the glass is half full not half empty. You just spec it with a rear end around 6.5! Its a municipal truck- doens't have to go fast!

[7Mary3]

Unbeliveable! According to this month's issue of 'Light & Medium Truck', Dodge outsold Ford in class 3 through 7 for January, 4,583 to 4,184. Amazing considering Dodge doesn't even build any class 6 or 7 trucks. I figure Ford's changeover to the 2011 Super Duty 350, 450, and 550 might explain some of it. Maybe some buyers are holding out for the 6.7L Powerstroke too.

[Bob Rosadini]

Unbeliveable! According to this month's issue of 'Light & Medium Truck', Dodge outsold Ford in class 3 through 7 for January, 4,583 to 4,184. Amazing considering Dodge doesn't even build any class 6 or 7 trucks. I figure Ford's changeover to the 2011 Super Duty 350, 450, and 550 might explain some of it. Maybe some buyers are holding out for the 6.7L Powerstroke too.

 

 

7m- I too saw that and had the same reaction. For sure it has to be that the truck guy in the know, has heard all the good things about the 6.7 and is just waiting for them to show up in inventory or for the initial production runs to "seat in" just in case there are some last minute changes. For what the premium is though, the "hobbyist" will be out of the picture- unless he is loaded! But for the guy who does real work and runs high miles, the power and the fuel economy willmake the sale. Still don't understand why they would not put it in the 650- at least in the say under 23,000 gvw version. Given the choice- if I were buying a ramp truck- would I want a 550 or a 650 with a real front end. No question in my mind.

[Joe771476]

Paccar (KW & Pete) is offering all wheel drive mediums? For what applications? Only two I can think of is fire trucks reaching hard to access locations and municipal plow trucks.

[BAM]

Dodge had some pent up orders for the 4/5500, and the pickens are pretty slim for 4/550 dealer inventory lately because of the build out of 2010 SD. I'm sure Dodge is twisting this into something it is not, but just be patient the pendulum will swing back our way.

[Bob Rosadini]

Dodge had some pent up orders for the 4/5500, and the pickens are pretty slim for 4/550 dealer inventory lately because of the build out of 2010 SD. I'm sure Dodge is twisting this into something it is not, but just be patient the pendulum will swing back our way.

So Bam, I gather you are a truck tech in a dealership? What do you hear about 650/750's future?

[Joe771476]

I just saw what I believe to be two BRAND new F750's. One was a yellow Mac Tool truck with a box which must be for shipping only. I can't believe a sales rep would be working out of this type of truck. Another was a 4WD with some kind of tank body but I was zipping past in the opposite direction so I couldn't get the company name that would give me a clue as to what is was. Oshkosh is dropping their custom armored bodies (for police tactical use) on F550 chassis. The only way you would know that it's a Ford, without opening the hood, is by the dashboard!

[7Mary3]

There just might be some medium duty news next month. A 'dark horse' that hasn't done much lately could make an announcement about a new plant and a bunch of new models. Lots of truck dealers looking for new truck franchises now, and these guys know it. Could be interesting. As for Ford, let's hope the 6.7L Powerstroke launch goes smoothly. 650 and 750? Is there a business case? Has a decision been made?

[Bob Rosadini]

There just might be some medium duty news next month. A 'dark horse' that hasn't done much lately could make an announcement about a new plant and a bunch of new models. Lots of truck dealers looking for new truck franchises now, and these guys know it. Could be interesting. As for Ford, let's hope the 6.7L Powerstroke launch goes smoothly. 650 and 750? Is there a business case? Has a decision been made?

7m-If someone can make a case for a new plant right now-who I guess has NOT been a player, that kind of makes the case for Ford- theyare no. 3 with no effort!

[BAM]

So Bam, I gather you are a truck tech in a dealership? What do you hear about 650/750's future?

 

I hear good things about the 6/750, its here to stay. Hearing strong rumors from Ford about gas engines for the F650.

[7Mary3]

7m-If someone can make a case for a new plant right now-who I guess has NOT been a player, that kind of makes the case for Ford- theyare no. 3 with no effort!

 

Number 3 yes, but check the volume. Think they will break 5000 units this year? They won't be able to justify spending to meet 2015 emissions at that level. I think things will get better though.

 

It's not Ford. Plant may not be new, it's new to this manufacturer. This manufacturer is currently selling 'white iron' in the U.S.. Can't say who it is just yet....

 

Other (non-related) news: GM will be selling gasoline engines to Freightliner. PACCAR's in-house DAF diesels look really good, lots of interest.

 

Gas engined Ford F-650??? I doubt it. U-Haul waved a whole bunch of cash in the form of some BIG orders to Ford for a Triton V-10 powered F-650 2 years ago, and Ford (or Blue Diamond or International) wouldn't do it. Too much of a 'disruption' for Escobedo was the excuse. Unless something is about to change.....

 

Got a ride in a brand new big Hino tonight. Very impressive! What wasn't impressive was the Hino was a wrecker sent to rescue me in a broken down Ford truck. That's what I call advertising!

Edited April 18, 2010 by 7Mary3

[BAM]

 

 

Gas engined Ford F-650??? I doubt it. U-Haul waved a whole bunch of cash in the form of some BIG orders to Ford for a Triton V-10 powered F-650 2 years ago, and Ford (or Blue Diamond or International) wouldn't do it. Too much of a 'disruption' for Escobedo was the excuse. Unless something is about to change.....

 

 

 

The market has changed a lot in the last two years:

1) GM has abandoned the class 6 gas market.

2) Landed prices of 2010 EPA class 6 diesel trucks are ridiculous.

3) Fuel mileage advantage of diesel not nearly as great as it used to be.

4) Cost of ownership in low to mid mileage usage really swings toward gas.

5) price of diesel fuel Vs. gas.

6) Having to deal with the regen process, ( the Dodge Cummins is by far the worst, I have first hand experience because we sold a lot of the Sterling Bullet chassis and they have to be driven to go into regen, they will not do a stationary regen. If you application does not allow the truck to be driven at highway speeds you are fuct. The dealer has to do the regen and it is not covered under warranty).

7) Sooner or later the Blue Diamond partnership will be over.

8) It reminds me of when Ford said that they will never build another gas powered ambulance, it took a while but they are building them now...

[theDuff]

 

6) Having to deal with the regen process, ( the Dodge Cummins is by far the worst, I have first hand experience because we sold a lot of the Sterling Bullet chassis and they have to be driven to go into regen, they will not do a stationary regen. If you application does not allow the truck to be driven at highway speeds you are fuct. The dealer has to do the regen and it is not covered under warranty).

 

 

Fords are the same way. Ever since '09 anyway. '08's too if they've been reflashed. Theres too much of a risk for fire if its allowed to regen stationary. What if your parked in a tall prairie grass? That exhaust gets over 1022 degrees! I've noticed when its colder outside the truck does a lot more "active regens" where they run terrible, blow smoke and whatnot, have to be driven 20 miles to finish... When its warmer they go into passive regen and the driver doesn't notice it at all and isn't even alerted by the message center that its doing it.