Rear Drive Sedan, SUV?

[mercblue281]

Ok, with the death of the rear-drive BOF Explorer and the now seeming inevitable death of the Panther platform WHAT THE HELL IS A RWD fan supposed to do?

I have been an loyal Ford/Mercury customer my entire life. I never ever thought the company would be KILLING is best, most durable and safe products.

As a Grand Marquis driver, am I to be designated a second class citizen by the company I've done nothing but promote and invest in?

Am I being relegated to a lifetime of buying used Panthers and repairing the ones I already own? I'm only 30! Where's the desirable product Mr. Mullaly? Mr. Fields?

We now will have NO body on frame rear drivers smaller than an Expy or an F-150?

Please! Give us a rear drive sedan to aspire to! You killed the Marauder after a brief stint and never improved the Marquis or Vic since.

I refuse to believe that you want to dump all over your best marketing agents, customers and lifetime believers.

You have the ability. Stop thinking everyone wants a Taurus or a car-ute. Some buyers still want real cars. You've sold 33k Panther platform vehicles year to date. That counts for NOTHING?

 

You've taken away the Bronco, the Excursion, the truck Explorer, now the Crown Vic and the Grand Marquis.

What can you offer us?

[mustang6172]

You want body-on-frame?

[NickF1011]

Ford has 11 2010MY IIHS Top Safety Picks. The Panthers nor the Explorer are amongst them. It's time to move on.

 

If those customers were so loyal, Ford wouldn't have stopped selling GM's to the public and Crown Vic sales would be better than they are. Explorer sales are also down to its lowest levels ever. Those customers have moved on to better, more modern product.

 

Would a RWD Ford sedan be nice? Sure. Is it anywhere close to a priority for the company? No.

[mercblue281]

Heck yeah! If i drove a tweezy unibody it'd be garbage in a year. A good vehicle needs a frame. Making the Explorer a unibody is a HUGE mistake. Does anyone who wants a real SUV buy a Ridgeline? Its a joke.

 

Taking away the Panther platform leaves the market with ZERO substantial cars. I know i can't tell Ford what to do but they're making a mistake blowing off the RWD platform.

 

There are a significant number of people who don't want a stupidly overcomplicated car. They don't want GPS, parking assist, rear cameras, stupid iDrive systems, etc. Simple is sometimes better and Ford shouldn't cede those sales to competitors, particularly the foreigners.

 

Look at GM - they just recalled the washer fluid heater. Is that a feature that anyone ever needed? Rain-X or Prestone De-Icer works pretty good. Manufacturers need to stop adding stupid unecessary complications, it just makes more s**t that breaks

 

I want to buy a full-size RWD car when my Grand Marquis needs to be retired. Right now there are NONE in the market worth the money. The 300 is a ridiculously ugly chrysler turkey thats too small and has poor visibility. I'd never set foot in a hyundai (the genesis is also not full size) and GM doesn't even have an offering yet since they killed Pontiac (which is overpriced). A straightforward, durable, easy to repair V8 RWD sedan is what the market needs and thats what the Grand Marquis offered at good value pricing.

 

they had panther platform sales of roughly 70k thru may this year - thats still a lot of cars they make money on. I don't get why they insist on trashing it.

 

Hey Alan? Mark? little help?

 

 

You want body-on-frame?

[NickF1011]

Heck yeah! If i drove a tweezy unibody it'd be garbage in a year. A good vehicle needs a frame. Making the Explorer a unibody is a HUGE mistake. Does anyone who wants a real SUV buy a Ridgeline? Its a joke.

 

People buying Explorers for the past decade haven't cared about its offroad ability because it already doesn't have any.

 

Taking away the Panther platform leaves the market with ZERO substantial cars. I know i can't tell Ford what to do but they're making a mistake blowing off the RWD platform.

 

You're right. It just leaves with the cars that actually, you know, sell.

 

There are a significant number of people who don't want a stupidly overcomplicated car. They don't want GPS, parking assist, rear cameras, stupid iDrive systems, etc.

 

Yes. Those people are called Hertz, Avis, Enterprise...

 

Look at GM - they just recalled the washer fluid heater.

 

Red herring.

 

I want to buy a full-size RWD car when my Grand Marquis needs to be retired. Right now there are NONE in the market worth the money. The 300 is a ridiculously ugly chrysler turkey thats too small and has poor visibility. I'd never set foot in a hyundai (the genesis is also not full size) and GM doesn't even have an offering yet since they killed Pontiac (which is overpriced). A straightforward, durable, easy to repair V8 RWD sedan is what the market needs and thats what the Grand Marquis offered at good value pricing.

 

Shouldn't the fact that no other automakers make anything remotely similar tell you something? There's no market there.

 

they had panther platform sales of roughly 70k thru may this year - thats still a lot of cars they make money on. I don't get why they insist on trashing it.

 

70K vehicles across three brands, all sold at extensive discount and mostly to fleets. That's not a sustainable business model.

[mercblue281]

screw the safety ratings. they're not relevant to real life.

 

more steel = safer vehicle.

 

A good car inflicts more damage than it sustains.

 

Ford has 11 2010MY IIHS Top Safety Picks. The Panthers nor the Explorer are amongst them. It's time to move on.

 

If those customers were so loyal, Ford wouldn't have stopped selling GM's to the public and Crown Vic sales would be better than they are. Explorer sales are also down to its lowest levels ever. Those customers have moved on to better, more modern product.

 

Would a RWD Ford sedan be nice? Sure. Is it anywhere close to a priority for the company? No.

[NickF1011]

screw the safety ratings. they're not relevant to real life.

 

more steel = safer vehicle.

 

A good car inflicts more damage than it sustains.

 

Never took a physics class, did you?

[mercblue281]

You wanna be the funny guy go ahead. My cousin is still alive because of a grand marquis wagon.

 

The point is that Ford IS missing a very relevant market, maybe not the biggest market but relevant. There has been a market need for a substantive RWD sedan forever, some for consumers, some for law enforcement and livery. These consumers and users need vehicles that are more substantial that your run of the mill FWD midsize. So what if they're fleets? they're money is green and not all of the vehicles have to be identical.

 

If Ford had their heads screwed on straight they'd still have a LS like Lincoln to go head to head with the CTS and the bimmers. They'd also have an everyman RWD car in the works for those of us who don't want stupidly expensive cars.

 

Yes there are models that won't sell 400k units a year but thats was the mistake Ford admitted when it said they can't sell 500k taurus size vehicles. they split the segment adding the fusion. they built a good fwd taurus but i'm sure a bunch of those went to fleets just like the fusions and foci. In the ute market they added the edge, the flex and tried the taurus x. now they want an explorer based on the same? thats a lot of similar vehicles for a flooded market.

 

The market should not be dictated to. If you have a design that you haven't invested in for 10 years and they still turnover 70k vehicles maybe you should BUILD on it instead of trashing it and possibly ceding it to competitors.

 

There is still a portion of the population who don't give a s**t about 40mpg hybrid golf carts, fake car-utes and mid size FWD cars.

 

 

Never took a physics class, did you?

[NickF1011]

You wanna be the funny guy go ahead. My cousin is still alive because of a grand marquis wagon.

 

Glad he is alive. But there's no saying he wouldn't have also survived in another vehicle.

 

The point is that Ford IS missing a very relevant market, maybe not the biggest market but relevant. There has been a market need for a substantive RWD sedan forever, some for consumers, some for law enforcement and livery. These consumers and users need vehicles that are more substantial that your run of the mill FWD midsize. So what if they're fleets? they're money is green and not all of the vehicles have to be identical.

 

Fleets buy at bigger discounts than you or I do. So no, their money really isn't as green as it is in the retail market. And it's not a relevant market anymore. If it was, Ford wouldn't be the last one leaving it.

 

If Ford had their heads screwed on straight they'd still have a LS like Lincoln to go head to head with the CTS and the bimmers. They'd also have an everyman RWD car in the works for those of us who don't want stupidly expensive cars.

 

I said in my first response that it would be nice to see such a vehicle again. It's just not a priority.

 

Yes there are models that won't sell 400k units a year but thats was the mistake Ford admitted when it said they can't sell 500k taurus size vehicles. they split the segment adding the fusion. they built a good fwd taurus but i'm sure a bunch of those went to fleets just like the fusions and foci. In the ute market they added the edge, the flex and tried the taurus x. now they want an explorer based on the same? thats a lot of similar vehicles for a flooded market.

 

The Explorer wasn't selling well enough anymore to warrant its own platform. The Edge, Flex, and Explorer are all quite different in their appearance and utility.

 

The market should not be dictated to. If you have a design that you haven't invested in for 10 years and they still turnover 70k vehicles maybe you should BUILD on it instead of trashing it and possibly ceding it to competitors.

 

The market isn't being dictated to. Ford is listening to it and responding to it. Panther sales have fallen year over year for the better part of two decades now. It's time to put the baby to bed.

 

There is still a portion of the population who don't give a s**t about 40mpg hybrid golf carts, fake car-utes and mid size FWD cars.

 

Yes, a very small portion. Ford may once again cater to them eventually, when they have the resources to do it. Refreshing the archaic Panther chassis wasn't going to solve anything.

[mercblue281]

By all means i'm not INSISTING they keep the panther platform, as much as i would like that. With their resources they could surely do better, start from the ground up. They did the new taurus in a couple years. The new mustangs were ground up designs back when the went retro.

They could do it and they should. They need to keep the public interested though. They tried to tease the new Taurus interceptor and that seems to have been met with a large thud.

 

If the buyers feel abandoned and like i said - the town car, vic and marquis buyers are the most loyal Ford has (as were the Bronco fans) - they'll look elsewhere to spend their cash. Whether it be fleets or consumers a sale is a sale and Ford has always been profitable on the Panthers.

 

Good product has always brought the buyers back. How many guys have been screaming they have to go buy a 300 to spite Ford because they're not offering the desired product? Is the 300 the product they want? No, but they aren't being given good choice or competition. How many people might actually look at a Hyundai Genesis? who knows but they point is that Ford shouldn't cede the cash cows to its competition. It has the resources and market position now to attack ALL sectors of the market. It has been successful in what in the past weren't considered it's typically strongest markets (i.e. mid-size, compact). It shouldn't abandon profitable markets that it has been the strongest in.

 

You can put down the RWD fans and the Panther platform all you want. Ford is still making a mistake here by abandoning this market at a time when it is finally seeming to be run like a company with a growing future instead of a flat or declining future.

[NickF1011]

By all means i'm not INSISTING they keep the panther platform, as much as i would like that. With their resources they could surely do better, start from the ground up. They did the new taurus in a couple years. The new mustangs were ground up designs back when the went retro.

They could do it and they should. They need to keep the public interested though. They tried to tease the new Taurus interceptor and that seems to have been met with a large thud.

 

By whose estimation did the Taurus Interceptor land with a thud? Yours? You have no idea what the police market interest has been.

 

As for the Taurus only taking a couple years -- yeah -- because it was based on existing architecture.

 

The Mustang is very likely in its last iteration on its own platform. Why? The same reason the Panthers are dying all together: not enough volume to justify it anymore. And that's with the Mustang outselling the Panthers.

 

If the buyers feel abandoned and like i said - the town car, vic and marquis buyers are the most loyal Ford has (as were the Bronco fans) - they'll look elsewhere to spend their cash. Whether it be fleets or consumers a sale is a sale and Ford has always been profitable on the Panthers.

 

Most loyal according to whom? You? Many of them are bought used. And those who are buying new are becoming rarer with each passing day. And why would they automatically leave Ford to replace their Panthers? After all, didn't you say that nobody else offers anything comparable either?

 

Good product has always brought the buyers back. How many guys have been screaming they have to go buy a 300 to spite Ford because they're not offering the desired product? Is the 300 the product they want? No, but they aren't being given good choice or competition. How many people might actually look at a Hyundai Genesis? who knows but they point is that Ford shouldn't cede the cash cows to its competition. It has the resources and market position now to attack ALL sectors of the market. It has been successful in what in the past weren't considered it's typically strongest markets (i.e. mid-size, compact). It shouldn't abandon profitable markets that it has been the strongest in.

 

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. Ford's fullsize Taurus is now outselling the 300 and Genesis.

 

You can put down the RWD fans and the Panther platform all you want. Ford is still making a mistake here by abandoning this market at a time when it is finally seeming to be run like a company with a growing future instead of a flat or declining future.

 

I'm not putting down RWD at all (for the third time). Heck, I own a Mustang!! I am putting down the aging Panther though. Ford is only abandoning something that really doesn't exist anymore. Did you decry Ford when they cancelled the Probe and abandoned the FWD coupe market? How about when they cancelled the FWD Capri? That was abandoning the roadster market. They left those markets for the same reason they left the fullsize RWD market -- it was insufficient to warrant their attention at the time.

[mustang6172]

By all means i'm not INSISTING they keep the panther platform, as much as i would like that. With their resources they could surely do better, start from the ground up. They did the new taurus in a couple years. The new mustangs were ground up designs back when the went retro.

 

The new Taurus took 3 years to design. Ford started working on it when it realized the 500 was going to be a dud. Throwing a new grill on the 500 and renaming it Taurus was a knee-jerk reaction to poor sales. And when it began production of the 500 it had taken a few years to redesign a Volvo S80.

 

The current generation Mustang started off in 2000 and didn't finish until 2005. A lot of that time was spent refitting the Dew98 chassis as the D2C.

[akirby]

The new Taurus took 3 years to design. Ford started working on it when it realized the 500 was going to be a dud. Throwing a new grill on the 500 and renaming it Taurus was a knee-jerk reaction to poor sales. And when it began production of the 500 it had taken a few years to redesign a Volvo S80.

 

The current generation Mustang started off in 2000 and didn't finish until 2005. A lot of that time was spent refitting the Dew98 chassis as the D2C.

 

It was only 24 months for the new Taurus - a record I believe. And it wasn't just a "knee jerk" reaction to sales - it was about not throwing away a valuable brand name. At that point the choice was to reuse Taurus or throw it away and keep Five Hundred. Seems like a no-brainer to me, regardless of what happened with sales.

[jpd80]

GRWD is alive and well living in Australia

 

 

 

 

[mercblue281]

GRWD is alive and well living in Australia

 

 

looks pretty sharp. i'd like to give it a try we need some american euro beaters in the market. if they're built in austrailia who cares.

 

people in the states are so clueless that if you took the blue oval off the front they'd think its a new 7-series bmw or an audi

[NickF1011]

people in the states are so clueless that if you took the blue oval off the front they'd think its a new 7-series bmw or an audi

 

Mmmm...not quite.

[94ranger]

I still attest that putting the Mustang, a flagship Lincoln, and Lincoln Coupe on the platform the Territory and Falcon use would be a good move. But what does a 20 years old know?

[94ranger]

People buying Explorers for the past decade haven't cared about its offroad ability because it already doesn't have any.

 

What are you talking about? My 99 Explorer has gone places here in NW PA that a lot of Wranglers get stuck at. I know I've had to pull them out. It's a stock Explorer with all season tires. The worst damage I've done to it on the trail/ washed out logging road/ oil lease/ rail road bed,etc. is a clinched exhaust pipe from me backing into a boulder.

[ehaase]

I still attest that putting the Mustang, a flagship Lincoln, and Lincoln Coupe on the platform the Territory and Falcon use would be a good move. But what does a 20 years old know?

I'd like to see a new Thunderbird and flaghip Lincoln on the same platform - repeat what Ford did in 1961. The new Lincoln MK's are flops, and I don't see how Lincoln can survive with a new Continental. I would just keep the Mustang on its current platform with periodic incremental improvements.

[akirby]

People buying Explorers for the past decade haven't cared about its offroad ability because it already doesn't have any.

 

What are you talking about? My 99 Explorer has gone places here in NW PA that a lot of Wranglers get stuck at. I know I've had to pull them out. It's a stock Explorer with all season tires. The worst damage I've done to it on the trail/ washed out logging road/ oil lease/ rail road bed,etc. is a clinched exhaust pipe from me backing into a boulder.

 

I think that changed a lot when they went to IRS in 2002.

[94ranger]

I think that changed a lot when they went to IRS in 2002.

I can concur with that. My friend's '04 had some trouble but still kept up decently. Another friend's POS '91 showed us both up. Only marginally though. The guy with the '04 just got a '06 Jeep Commander so I'm anxious to see how it fares with the Explorer duo.

[NickF1011]

What are you talking about? My 99 Explorer has gone places here in NW PA that a lot of Wranglers get stuck at. I know I've had to pull them out. It's a stock Explorer with all season tires. The worst damage I've done to it on the trail/ washed out logging road/ oil lease/ rail road bed,etc. is a clinched exhaust pipe from me backing into a boulder.

 

...all of which the new Explorer will probably be able to do in AWD guise also....only it'll do it without handling like a truck. Point is -- hardly anybody will care. Additionally, I said the past decade. Your '99 was built longer ago than that.