robertlane Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Click here for the article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubbyo Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 "Today, the front-wheel-drive Pontiac Grand Prix and G6 passenger cars are nowhere near as successful as the FWD Honda (nyse: HMC - news - people ) Accord and Toyota (nyse: TM - news - people ) Camry. What makes GM think things would be different if Pontiac converted to an all rear-wheel-drive lineup? If all it took for success were rear-wheel-drive vehicles, Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ) would not have killed the Thunderbird or the Lincoln LS." The Honda's are popular because of perceived reliability, superior performance and fuel economy. Not all rear drive vehicles are popular it's true, but exciting styling and performance sell. That's what Pontiac is going for I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bec5150 Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I think Pontiac's problem is that the issue of cheap performance is not there. Ford had the Focus SVT as well as the current Mustang GT. Dodge has the Hemi Charger and Magnum as well as the Caliber SRT 4. But what car can you get from GM's excitement division, below 30K MSRP, that will get out of it's own way? Yeah, they have the Grand Prix with the small block V-8/fwd car, but take the engine away and you are driving the same car that they had 15 years ago. Gee, what do you think about Pontiac offering a real tire burner for under $25K? "It ain't brain surgery, folks!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPITYDAFOOL VIRUSFREE Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I think Pontiac's problem is that the issue of cheap performance is not there. Ford had the Focus SVT as well as the current Mustang GT. Dodge has the Hemi Charger and Magnum as well as the Caliber SRT 4. But what car can you get from GM's excitement division, below 30K MSRP, that will get out of it's own way? Yeah, they have the Grand Prix with the small block V-8/fwd car, but take the engine away and you are driving the same car that they had 15 years ago. Gee, what do you think about Pontiac offering a real tire burner for under $25K? "It ain't brain surgery, folks!!" Solstice is kicking the Miata's Ass. S2000 is only competition for new Gm prodcut. Pontiac/Saturn/?Forgot other Gm convertable under 30 g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubbyo Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 (edited) Solstice is kicking the Miata's Ass. S2000 is only competition for new Gm prodcut. Pontiac/Saturn/?Forgot other Gm convertable under 30 g. Too bad that compact roadsters are such a small market. The Reflex was an interesting concept due to the diesel engine. Are there plans for a MazdaSpeed Miata? The 2.3L Turbo would be pretty sweet in that little car and it would go amazingly fast for it being a scant 2500 (:unsure:?) lbs. Did anyone read the Hot Rod Magazine article about the LS7 Solstice? http://hotrod.com/projectbuild/hdrp_pontia..._project_build/ Edited June 14, 2006 by fubbyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Too bad that compact roadsters are such a small market. The Reflex was an interesting concept due to the diesel engine. Are there plans for a MazdaSpeed Miata? The 2.3L Turbo would be pretty sweet in that little car and it would go amazingly fast for it being a scant 2500 (:unsure:?) lbs. Did anyone read the Hot Rod Magazine article about the LS7 Solstice? http://hotrod.com/projectbuild/hdrp_pontia..._project_build/ MSM with the MZR2.3DISI is coming in 2008 .... Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sa_seahawker Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I think Pontiac's problem is that the issue of cheap performance is not there. Ford had the Focus SVT as well as the current Mustang GT. Dodge has the Hemi Charger and Magnum as well as the Caliber SRT 4. But what car can you get from GM's excitement division, below 30K MSRP, that will get out of it's own way? I thought the fact that only the rental companies seem excited to buy thousands of units hurts em too. The hundreds of people lined up to buy a GXP Pontiac compared to the thousands of Enterprise, Avis, Hertz, or Advantage deals isn't exactly selling Pontiac to the "MASSES". Just my opinion, I could be wrong. Solstice is kicking the Miata's Ass. S2000 is only competition for new Gm prodcut. Pontiac/Saturn/?Forgot other Gm convertable under 30 g. I thought they used that platform for Opel/Saturn/Pontiac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I think Pontiac's problem is that the issue of cheap performance is not there. //Yeah, they have the Grand Prix with the small block V-8/fwd car, but take the engine away and you are driving the same car that they had 15 years ago. An uglier version of it, even. Solstice is kicking the Miata's Ass. S2000 is only competition for new Gm prodcut. Pontiac/Saturn/?Forgot other Gm convertable under 30 g. This is true - http://paultan.org/archives/2006/02/08/200...es-miata-sales/ And the S2000 is going to be replaced, I understand from Jalopnik.com, in like 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bec5150 Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Who cares about the Solstice? It's a nice car and all, but it's not the "bread and butter" performance that's gonna make some money, is it? Mustang is a four seater. Charger is a four door. They need something with some mass appeal and decent performance for the right price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The main reason that the Solstice/Sky are kicking the Miata right now is their newness. There are a lot of people out there that just won't consider the Miata, but will consider a Pontiac or saturn. Once the "initial swell" finishes with their purchases in two years, it will settle into the race that it really is. As for the Miata itself, it is more than competent in pretty much every way with respect to the Solstice/Sky. On the track, they are rather similar performers. The MSM is already in the works to be released late next year. Another thing helping Mazda with the Miata is that its platform is now derived from and partially shared with the RX-8. So, neither vehicle needs gobs of volume to be profitable. Year on year, the Miata is still doing decently, and that's the important part in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc-o Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 The main reason that the Solstice/Sky are kicking the Miata right now is their newness. There are a lot of people out there that just won't consider the Miata, but will consider a Pontiac or saturn. Once the "initial swell" finishes with their purchases in two years, it will settle into the race that it really is. As for the Miata itself, it is more than competent in pretty much every way with respect to the Solstice/Sky. On the track, they are rather similar performers. The MSM is already in the works to be released late next year. Another thing helping Mazda with the Miata is that its platform is now derived from and partially shared with the RX-8. So, neither vehicle needs gobs of volume to be profitable. Year on year, the Miata is still doing decently, and that's the important part in my book. I totally agree... The Miata (the model, the basic look, interior, functionality) has been around for 15 years, and enjoys a loyal following. Plenty of them are used as daily drivers, even in snowbelt areas. Conversely, the Solstice barely even has a trunk. It's also worse on gas than the Miata and harder to use (top, interior). I *can't* see the Solstice being a longterm success... it's one of the least practical cars out there, styling only goes so far until it becomes common place, especially on a 20-some grand car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Conversely, the Solstice barely even has a trunk. I *can't* see the Solstice being a longterm success... it's one of the least practical cars out there, styling only goes so far until it becomes common place, especially on a 20-some grand car. I'm thinking a lot of people said similar things back in 1953.....about the Corvette. Let's give it a fair shake. GM brought a compitent contender to the table. Mazda simply didn't go far enough with the MX-5 redesign. For being the soul of their "zoom zoom", it's somehow the most boring looking vehicle in their entire lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim kakouris Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 i'm a mazda fan for sure, but the miata can't hold a candle to the kappa cars in terms of looks. no way, no how. the fender curves of the solstice are pure sex in real life! we're talking about 2-seater roadsters here, and looks matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc-o Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 I'm thinking a lot of people said similar things back in 1953.....about the Corvette. Let's give it a fair shake. GM brought a compitent contender to the table. Mazda simply didn't go far enough with the MX-5 redesign. For being the soul of their "zoom zoom", it's somehow the most boring looking vehicle in their entire lineup. But the Corvette went in a completely different direction, had a hardtop model and didn't really even hit its stride until the second generation. I agree the current Miata is a bit boring in terms of styling whereas the Solstice is not, but as a driver's car the Solstice is mostly regarded as a disapointment (compared to the Miata, or the Corvette) and I think that limits the car's long term potential. Style works in the short term, for newness... I just don't see the Solstice as a long term success... but if you disagree that's fine, fact is both of us are speculating and anything could happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Style works in the short term, for newness... That's what Chrysler learned big-time. Disappointing to hear the Solstice isn't much of a driver's car - if it had something great in that department, I could see myself in a Solstice (despite my love of four-door large sedans) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinb120 Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Personally I have this feeling that the Solstice is the next Fiero. Miata is a better car, the second gen lost its way but it will win back sales with its return to its roots. Solstice doesn't make the company enough money to turn anything around anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPITYDAFOOL VIRUSFREE Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 (edited) Personally I have this feeling that the Solstice is the next Fiero. Miata is a better car, the second gen lost its way but it will win back sales with its return to its roots. Solstice doesn't make the company enough money to turn anything around anyway. Adding Additional shift at Wilmington Del. They cant make enough for demand. Gen guys going back to work. Its a winner for the time being. Guesswhat guys, All cars will have a short-run of success if they are innovative,attractive,new, etc. Use the Flex-plant mentality to show yourselves where the Automarket is going. HIt or Miss because of competition. U have to get it right the first time out, this is Business 101 Mark talks about this in the Free Press June 16 2006. My head is getting bigger and bigger by the day. IPITYDAFOOL who doesnt listen to their Public Service Announcements. My marketing expertise will be used for the competition. 2008 Ford will lose one of their unsung stars if Im not recoginized soon. Edited June 16, 2006 by IPITYDAFOOL VIRUSFREE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I'm thinking a lot of people said similar things back in 1953.....about the Corvette. Let's give it a fair shake. GM brought a compitent contender to the table. Mazda simply didn't go far enough with the MX-5 redesign. For being the soul of their "zoom zoom", it's somehow the most boring looking vehicle in their entire lineup. The Vette was a sales failure in '53-'55. It almost didn't make the '56 model line. If Zora Duntov hadn't championed the car with Ed Cole it would have died. The '55 T-bird beat it handly sales. I think the Solstice sales was based on pent up demand more than anything else. The car was heavily marketed on The Apprentice. I think it may be the next Fiero. By the time they get it really right they will stop making it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 The Vette was a sales failure in '53-'55. It almost didn't make the '56 model line. If Zora Duntov hadn't championed the car with Ed Cole it would have died. The '55 T-bird beat it handly sales. I think the Solstice sales was based on pent up demand more than anything else. The car was heavily marketed on The Apprentice. I think it may be the next Fiero. By the time they get it really right they will stop making it. Based on how it is selling, Pontiac ALREADY has it right. They just need to keep it fresh and I see no reason why it won't keep up its momentum. It's just sad that nobody here is willing to admit that GM has a winner. Your T-bird vs Corvette comparison is valid to a certain degree. However, the Corvette survived through generational improvement. Where's our beloved T-bird now? I guess this comparison just goes to show that it's impossible to predict how a car will do over the long term based on initial success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RancorKeeper Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Style works in the short term, for newness... The flip side of that argument is the recent Pontiac GTO. Here's a car with tons of performance but virtually no style or presence and it sold 25,159 total between the '04 & '05 models. That's a resounding "No thanks!" from the enthusiast demographic. Personally, you can always bolt-on performance, but you can't add styling presence after the car leaves the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 (edited) The flip side of that argument is the recent Pontiac GTO. Here's a car with tons of performance but virtually no style or presence and it sold 25,159 total between the '04 & '05 models. That's a resounding "No thanks!" from the enthusiast demographic. Personally, you can always bolt-on performance, but you can't add styling presence after the car leaves the factory. Oh, I don't know..... Edited June 19, 2006 by niteflight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Oh, I don't know..... Japanese Superbird? :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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