Gay Protections trump Religious Freedom

[armadamaster]

Could Gay Protections Trump Religious Freedom?

 

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. -- Gay rights advocates often claim that gay Americans are denied employment, fired from their jobs, or otherwise discriminated against just because they are gay.

 

In response, advocacy groups have been pushing for a federal law to protect lesbian, gay, bi-sexual or transgendered individuals from employment discrimination.

 

But some wonder if such a law could endanger the religious freedom Americans have enjoyed since this country was founded.

 

Currently, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act or ENDA forbids employers from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. Now, the U.S. House of Representatives will vote soon on a bill that would create special protections for gays.

 

For more on the impact ENDA could have, click play for comments from Regent University law professor Bradley Jacobs, following Heather Sells' report.

 

Many Christians fear this protection will come at the expense of their freedom and what it could mean for businesses and public schools.

 

"ENDA is in principle a good idea -- that is to say continuing protections for employees against unjustified discrimination," explained Dr. Stanley Carlson-Thies, president of the Institutional Religious Freedom Alliance. "The difficulty here is that the behavior in question is homosexuality."

 

Religious Employers Not Exempt

 

ENDA has been introduced in every Congress except one since 1994. But this year, the momentum to pass the bill appears much stronger. The real question for people of faith is just how robust are its religious exemptions?

 

Right now, a number of loopholes exist. Under the ENDA legislation's current configuration, Christian retailers are not exempt. That means any Christian business with 15 or more employees would have to comply if the law was passed.

 

Scottie Velvin and her husband have owned The Harvest Company, a Christian bookstore in Chesapeake, Va., for more than 20 years. They're following ENDA closely although they have fewer than 15 workers. They believe ENDA could influence the publishers whose books they buy and possibly future employees.

 

"Long-term we may see some changes," Velvin told CBN News. "I'm not naive enough to think this is the end of it. Bills in the past have been altered and amended and it could very easily happen to this one."

 

A Cause for Concern

 

Attorney Austin R. Nimocks with the The Alliance Defense Fund, a conservative Christian non-profit organization, argues that Christian businesses like Velvin's have every reason to be concerned.

 

"A law that would require an organization to retain employees who don't fulfill that organization's mission is a dangerous law," he said. "It's like requiring an environmental group to fill up its board with a bunch of lumberjacks or requiring a Democratic senator to hire a bunch of Republican staffers."

 

 

 

 

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[armadamaster]

Lawsuit Claims College Ordered Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality, Or Be Dismissed

By Joshua Rhett Miller

 

A graduate student in Georgia is suing her university after she was told she must undergo a remediation program due to her beliefs on homosexuality and transgendered persons.

 

The student, Jennifer Keeton, 24, has been pursuing a master's degree in school counseling at Augusta State University since 2009, but school officials have informed her that she'll be dismissed from the program unless she alters her "central religious beliefs on human nature and conduct," according to a civil complaint filed last week.

 

"[Augusta State University] faculty have promised to expel Miss Keeton from the graduate Counselor Education Program not because of poor academic showing or demonstrated deficiencies in clinical performance, but simply because she has communicated both inside and outside the classroom that she holds to Christian ethical convictions on matters of human sexuality and gender identity," the 43-page lawsuit reads.

 

Keeton, according to the lawsuit, was informed by school officials in late May that she would be asked to take part in a remediation plan due to faculty concerns regarding her beliefs pertaining to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender issues.

 

"The faculty identifies Miss Keeton's views as indicative of her improper professional disposition to persons of such populations," the lawsuit reads.

"The university has told Jennifer Keeton that if she doesn't change her beliefs, she can't stay in the program," he told FoxNews.com. "She won't even have a chance to counsel any students; she won't have a chance to get a counseling degree; she'll be expelled."

 

Keeton, who is not available for interviews according to French, believes that people have "moral choices" regarding their sexuality, he said.

 

"A student has a right to express their point of view in and out of class without fear or censorship or expulsion," French said.

 

 

 

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[armadamaster]

Court Upholds Expulsion of Counseling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality

By Todd Starnes

 

Published July 28, 2010

| FoxNews.com

 

A federal judge has ruled in favor of a public university that removed a Christian student from its graduate program in school counseling over her belief that homosexuality is morally wrong. Monday's ruling, according to Julea Ward's attorneys, could result in Christian students across the country being expelled from public university for similar views.

 

“It’s a very dangerous precedent,” Jeremy Tedesco, legal counsel for the conservative Alliance Defense Fund, told FOX News Radio. “The ruling doesn’t say that explicitly, but that’s what is going to happen.”

 

U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

 

The university contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association code of ethics.

 

“Christian students shouldn’t be expelled for holding to and abiding by their beliefs,” said ADF senior counsel David French. “To reach its decision, the court had to do something that’s never been done in federal court: uphold an extremely broad and vague university speech code.”

 

Eastern Michigan University hailed the decision.

 

“We are pleased that the court has upheld our position in this matter,” EMU spokesman Walter Kraft said in a written statement. “Julea Ward was not discriminated against because of her religion. To the contrary, Eastern Michigan is deeply committed to the education of our students and welcomes individuals from diverse backgrounds into our community.”

 

 

 

 

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[akirby]

Here's an idea - if you're a Christian and don't like homosexuality - then don't do it.

 

Religious freedom means YOU are free to pursue whatever beliefs and religion YOU wish. It doesn't give you the right to enforce those religious beliefs on others.

 

If I remember correctly, homosexuality is no more of a sin than telling a lie, so are the Christian stores going to disquality potential employees who have at one time or another told a lie? Or had premarital sex? Of course not.

 

Hiring a homosexual to work in your store doesn't compromise an individual's religious beliefs.

 

As for the student - keep your biases to yourself. A school counselor who openly shows bias towards any group of students is not fit for that job. I'm sure the first thing she would do is counsel the gays not to be gay and that's NOT her job.

 

 

I am SO sick and tired of Christians who think religious freedom gives them the right to force their religion on everyone else publicly. At least the Mormons only do it in private wearing short sleeve white shirts and carrying backpacks and when you tell them no they go away quietly.

[RangerM]

Here's an idea - if you're a Christian and don't like homosexuality - then don't do it.

 

Religious freedom means YOU are free to pursue whatever beliefs and religion YOU wish. It doesn't give you the right to enforce those religious beliefs on others.

 

If I remember correctly, homosexuality is no more of a sin than telling a lie, so are the Christian stores going to disquality potential employees who have at one time or another told a lie? Or had premarital sex? Of course not.

 

Hiring a homosexual to work in your store doesn't compromise an individual's religious beliefs.

 

As for the student - keep your biases to yourself. A school counselor who openly shows bias towards any group of students is not fit for that job. I'm sure the first thing she would do is counsel the gays not to be gay and that's NOT her job.

 

 

I am SO sick and tired of Christians who think religious freedom gives them the right to force their religion on everyone else publicly. At least the Mormons only do it in private wearing short sleeve white shirts and carrying backpacks and when you tell them no they go away quietly.

Conversely, many Christians don't appreciate being told they must accept (as opposed to simply tolerate) a person's behavior.

 

As a Christian, I have no problem with homosexuality, per se. It's the "openly" homosexual behavior I have a problem with. Most homosexuals (that I know of) are just folks, same as me. I don't discuss my sex life with them, and really don't want to hear about theirs.

 

I think A-M's post was trying to drive home the point that any more it seems that certain moral values are favored (and/or protected) over others.

 

I don't wish to go "convert" the homosexual anymore than I want him/her to "convert" my way of thinking. We should be able to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

[suv_guy_19]

So, Christians should be able to refuse to hire someone because the person is homosexual?

[RangerM]

So, Christians should be able to refuse to hire someone because the person is homosexual?

Yes. People are (and should be) free to be ignorant, and others are free to shun them.

 

People (as in private individuals or companies) are (and should also be) free to refuse to hire someone for being Christian, too.

 

It's an ugly part of human nature, but it's a part of the world we live in. People can't (and won't) change unless these things are out in the open and can be addressed.

[suv_guy_19]

I really don't see how such a position addresses anything. The right to discriminate is one freedom that really shouldn't (and in this case, doesn't) exist.

[RangerM]

The right to discriminate is one freedom that really shouldn't......exist.

Draw the line.

 

At what point is the ability for one to discriminate what he/she deems acceptable not an individual right?

 

Then explain how this doesn't violate the discriminater's individual rights?

[suv_guy_19]

I don't see the discriminator's rights as being more important than those of the person being discriminated against. In such a case, only one person is really being hurt, and it isn't the discriminator.

[RangerM]

I don't see the discriminator's rights as being more important than those of the person being discriminated against. In such a case, only one person is really being hurt, and it isn't the discriminator.

Noone's rights are more important, which is why we have to defend even those with whom we don't agree.

 

I would counter by saying that in these cases, one person is hurt, and the other one suffers.

 

People who hate always suffer.

[ibinubu12]

Personally, those are awful examples.

 

If an environmental organization found out they employed a lumberjack, the shouldn't be able to fire him for that reason. If he re-writes the "Cutting Down Forests is Bad" pamphlet, then yes.

 

All this does is force employers to employ and fire based on WHAT the employees do, not WHO they are.

[partsisparts]

Didn't Christ say " Love thy neighbor as thyself" ? Or did he say "Love thy neighbor as thyself, except for the gay ones"?

 

Why don't Christians listen to Christ?

[akirby]

Didn't Christ say " Love thy neighbor as thyself" ? Or did he say "Love thy neighbor as thyself, except for the gay ones"?

 

Why don't Christians listen to Christ?

 

Exactly! Hypocrites.......

[akirby]

Conversely, many Christians don't appreciate being told they must accept (as opposed to simply tolerate) a person's behavior.

 

How is that any of your business? If you don't like what other people are doing - then leave. I don't like to see people smoking - do I have any recourse against these people or their behavior? Or course not. I don't like seeing really fat people either - can we force them not to go out in public?

 

This is so typical of Christian mentality - if it goes against Christian values then it should be outlawed regardless of whether the people affected share those same values or not.

 

Selling alcohol on Sunday is a prime example. It doesn't stop anybody from buying it on Saturday and drinking it on Sunday. And whether I have a beer on Sunday or not has absolutely no effect on anyone else. Yet Christians think it's terrible that other people are allowed to do it.

[Trimdingman]

Everybody should be free to hire who they want. If they are discriminating against any group, tell the world about it and encourage them to boycott the company if you don't like they way they are operating. That way, everything will be as the people want.

[RangerM]

How is that any of your business? If you don't like what other people are doing - then leave. I don't like to see people smoking - do I have any recourse against these people or their behavior? Or course not. I don't like seeing really fat people either - can we force them not to go out in public?

 

This is so typical of Christian mentality - if it goes against Christian values then it should be outlawed regardless of whether the people affected share those same values or not.

 

Is that what you think I said? If so, where?

 

Most Christians I know don't wish to go out and compel others to their way of thinking, however they do NOT wish to be told to change theirs either.

 

Example: The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, a Methodist-owned organization, owns a community center along the beach in New Jersey. A lesbian couple sued, and won, for the right to have their civil union held at the community center. Is that what you mean that Christians should just leave? They should just leave their property?

 

You said you don't like smoking or fat people. According to this case, you'd have no recourse in whether or not they camp out on your property (if you allow others who aren't fat or don't smoke to camp there). Tell me how that's right. Whose rights were violated? Were the lesbian couple forced to hold their ceremony at the Methodist-owned venue, or were the Methodists forced to relent their property rights?

 

People must have the freedom to associate with whom they wish. Conversely, they should also have the right to disassociate with anyone they wish. And that's all I've ever said.

 

Selling alcohol on Sunday is a prime example. It doesn't stop anybody from buying it on Saturday and drinking it on Sunday. And whether I have a beer on Sunday or not has absolutely no effect on anyone else. Yet Christians think it's terrible that other people are allowed to do it.

Some do. Most don't. But if a community votes to disallow it, then so be it. Allowing a private business owner to sell something is not the same as saying he must.

 

Trim's post is the most correct.

[RangerM]

Didn't Christ say " Love thy neighbor as thyself" ? Or did he say "Love thy neighbor as thyself, except for the gay ones"?

 

Why don't Christians listen to Christ?

Don't twist the meaning to suit your view.

 

Christ also said (paraphrased) "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

 

Loving your neighbor doesn't mean you must condone his behavior, but just because you don't condone his behavior, it doesn't give license to subdue him.

[akirby]

I can see this is going nowhere, as usual. For the record, I would support a church not allowing a gay marriage in their building. However, if a group of people wanted to rent it for a family reunion and some of the attendees happened to be gay then that should be allowed.

 

The problem you have is that according to the bible a sin is a sin and one sin is no worse than another. Therefore homosexuals are no worse than adulterers or liars yet you don't see Christian bookstores saying that they don't want to hire someone because they had an affair or lied.

 

Hypocrites.

[RangerM]

I can see this is going nowhere, as usual. For the record, I would support a church not allowing a gay marriage in their building. However, if a group of people wanted to rent it for a family reunion and some of the attendees happened to be gay then that should be allowed.

 

The problem you have is that according to the bible a sin is a sin and one sin is no worse than another. Therefore homosexuals are no worse than adulterers or liars yet you don't see Christian bookstores saying that they don't want to hire someone because they had an affair or lied.

 

Hypocrites.

You give up too easily.

 

We actually agree here, more than you think.

[ibinubu12]

Example: The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, a Methodist-owned organization, owns a community center along the beach in New Jersey. A lesbian couple sued, and won, for the right to have their civil union held at the community center. Is that what you mean that Christians should just leave? They should just leave their property?

 

Methodist Church:

 

UMC states that "basic human rights and civil liberties are due all persons... regardless of sexual orientation," and supports the lawful claims of contractual relationships such as mutual power of attorney, guardianship, shared material resources, etc. between two people regardless of sexual orientation as a simple justice issue. The UMC also "seek to live in Christian community, welcoming, forgiving, and loving one another, as Christ has loved and accepted us. [The UMC] implore families and churches not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends.

 

So, to paraphrase: "Gays are alright, just not you two". I can see why they'd be upset.

[RangerM]

What part of "not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends" means they think they're alright?

 

To wit, if I tolerate you, does that mean I think you're alright?

[partsisparts]

Don't twist the meaning to suit your view.

 

Christ also said (paraphrased) "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

 

Loving your neighbor doesn't mean you must condone his behavior, but just because you don't condone his behavior, it doesn't give license to subdue him.

 

I did not twist words, that was a quote. Jesus taught love your fellow man, not hate and intolerance. The church is the one teaching intolerance.

 

It is not my place or the church's to judge anyone. What other people do in their lives is none of my business. What would I care if they were gay or not? Why should you? Are they good people? Do they hurt you in any way? That is all you need to know.

[akirby]

I did not twist words, that was a quote. Jesus taught love your fellow man, not hate and intolerance. The church is the one teaching intolerance.

 

It is not my place or the church's to judge anyone. What other people do in their lives is none of my business. What would I care if they were gay or not? Why should you? Are they good people? Do they hurt you in any way? That is all you need to know.

 

It's ok to be gay, just don't act like it in public.

 

Most Christians simply can't grasp the concept that gays don't choose to be gay any more than we choose to be heterosexual and that God made them the way they are. They'd rather believe that it's a free choice and a behavioral issue because that fits their beliefs better than the truth.

[RangerM]

I did not twist words, that was a quote. Jesus taught love your fellow man, not hate and intolerance.

You're right. You did quote.

 

He said to love them, but he never said you must love everything about them.

The church is the one teaching intolerance.

Which church? One of them? Some of them? All of them? Because a church chooses not to associate, that is intolerance? Intolerance to me would seem to mean they would attempt to subdue the other party.

It is not my place or the church's to judge anyone. What other people do in their lives is none of my business. What would I care if they were gay or not? Why should you? Are they good people? Do they hurt you in any way? That is all you need to know.

It is your place to judge others' actions in the context of what you would prefer to be around (or your kids be around).

 

I'm not saying you should or should not care if someone is gay (or a smoker, or fat to quote akirby). But you have the right to decide for yourself, using whatever criteria you choose. But just as you look upon others, so shall you be observed BY others.