Ford and Bosch Debate Future of Diesels in U.S.

[Inselaffe]

Our Barb Samardzich sure showed him where to go!

 

Stupid and perfidious Bosch Engineer trying to peddle his expensive but pointless diesel technology on us. You'll have to do better than that our Teutonic friends!

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

 

I bet it was just banter, they both know the score! Also I bet he's quite phlegmatic about the commercial cards being stacked against diesel in the US for the near future.

 

And before we go too far into the Bosch bashing, over the last two decades they have probably done more than anyone else to bring useful and working gasoline direct injection technology to the wider market. They are an engineering led company that thinks long term without the constraints of having to achieve so-called "shareholder value". Bosch are arrogant, intransigent and expensive but they can afford to be because they are the best in the business and usually right. The only reason the OEMs hate Bosch is because they are the only supplier in the world that will not be talked down to and can tell them to piss off!

[97 F350]

Ford needs to take the 4.4L diesel and stick it into the Crown Vic and also make a Country Squire wagon and a Ranchero version. Then export a right-hand version to the UK.

 

Then Jelly, the St. Thomas union folk, the Panther mafia, Fordbuyer, the Ranger mafia and all the other why-no-diesel-cars-in-the-US-conspiracy crowd will finally shut up and stop posting these same inane threads over and over.

 

Of course then BON would have zero activity.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

And here's what many Americans still think of diesels...

 

http://www.viddler.c...log/videos/789/

 

LOL brilliant.

 

This is what most Europeans think of whispering quiet diesels

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrRVqH89fI4&feature=related

 

WTCC

LINK

 

DAKAR

LINK

Edited August 5, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[RichardJensen]

Of course, diesels get 'equivalency' rules at the ACO that make darn sure they aren't 'equivalent' to gas engines.

[RichardJensen]

Kind of like how diesels get favorable treatment on emissions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And fuel taxes.

[92merc]

Anyone know how much of Ecoboost is Ford and how much is Bosch? Injectors? Turbo? Software?

 

Point I'm getting at is this could be the start of Ford moving away from Bosch now that they got some things figured out. Sort of like the move from Navistar.

[silvrsvt]

Point I'm getting at is this could be the start of Ford moving away from Bosch now that they got some things figured out. Sort of like the move from Navistar.

 

 

Apparently they already are.

 

 

[Inselaffe]

Anyone know how much of Ecoboost is Ford and how much is Bosch? Injectors? Turbo? Software?

 

Point I'm getting at is this could be the start of Ford moving away from Bosch now that they got some things figured out. Sort of like the move from Navistar.

 

I would never put Bosch and Navistar in the same paragraph together!

 

Bosch will provide the fuel injection pump, injectors and PCU hardware and software, Bosch have only just got into the turbo business with Mahle. Ford could probably start doing their own PCU hardware and software, but it is very unlikely they will ever get into the business of making their own injectors and pumps. The other big players in the FIE (fuel injection equipment) field are Continental, Delphi and Denso, and they understandably hate it and makes things difficult when the OEMs start mixing and matching hardware from different sources.

 

I've seen this all before after working on diesels at FoE; Ford would get pissed off at Bosch and select one of the other major FIE suppliers for their new engine; find out they can't deliver the functionality they promised, be just as inflexible without the capability, and/or have lots of warranty issues; Ford would then on the next engine upgrade go crawling back to Bosch. Rinse and repeat.

 

I'm not against Ford going with other companies and doing stuff themselves, but I'm against doing it for the wrong reasons and not making sure they understand and adapt to strengths and weaknesses of their chosen suppliers.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Inselaffe

[92merc]

I would never put Bosch and Navistar in the same paragraph together!

 

Bosch will provide the fuel injection pump, injectors and PCU hardware and software, Bosch have only just got into the turbo business with Mahle. Ford could probably start doing their own PCU hardware and software, but it is very unlikely they will ever get into the business of making their own injectors and pumps. The other big players in the FIE (fuel injection equipment) field are Continental, Delphi and Denso, and they understandably hate it and makes things difficult when the OEMs start mixing and matching hardware from different sources.

 

I've seen this all before after working on diesels at FoE; Ford would get pissed off at Bosch and select one of the other major FIE suppliers for their new engine; find out they can't deliver the functionality they promised, be just as inflexible without the capability, and/or have lots of warranty issues; Ford would then on the next engine upgrade go crawling back to Bosch. Rinse and repeat.

 

I'm not against Ford going with other companies and doing stuff themselves, but I'm against doing it for the wrong reasons and not making sure they understand and adapt to strengths and weaknesses of their chosen suppliers.

 

So are you saying the parts are all Bosch, but all the programming to make it all work is all Ford? I was just trying to find out the extent of Bosch's involvement in the creation of Ecoboost. Who owns the parts doesn't concern me as much as who is the one that is making Ecoboost successful.

[jpd80]

So are you saying the parts are all Bosch, but all the programming to make it all work is all Ford? I was just trying to find out the extent of Bosch's involvement in the creation of Ecoboost. Who owns the parts doesn't concern me as much as who is the one that is making Ecoboost successful.

That is correct, the genius of "Ecoboost" is the software and utilization of DI, Turbo and downsized engine capacity.

 

As theoldwizard has said Ford is moving away from Bosch parts on Gen II, particularly Injectors.

I wouldn't be surprised if ultimately they change the ECU too.

[theoldwizard]

So are you saying the parts are all Bosch, but all the programming to make it all work is all Ford? I was just trying to find out the extent of Bosch's involvement in the creation of Ecoboost. Who owns the parts doesn't concern me as much as who is the one that is making Ecoboost successful.

That is correct, the genius of "Ecoboost" is the software and utilization of DI, Turbo and downsized engine capacity.

Most of the software on the 3.5L EcoBoost is Bosch software as are most of the sensors, actuators, including injectors and PCM.

 

As theoldwizard has said Ford is moving away from Bosch parts on Gen II, particularly Injectors.

I wouldn't be surprised if ultimately they change the ECU too.

Ford is doing much more of the software on the N.A. 2.0L EcoBoost, but still not 100%. Bosch is still supplying the PCM and some of the software (less than 50%; maybe less than 25%). Some of the other sensors and actuators are not Bosch.

Edited August 6, 2010 by theoldwizard

[theoldwizard]

Bosch will provide the fuel injection pump, injectors and PCU hardware and software, Bosch have only just got into the turbo business with Mahle. Ford could probably start doing their own PCU hardware and software, but it is very unlikely they will ever get into the business of making their own injectors and pumps.

I was directly (or indirectly) involved with Electronic Engine (and Transmission) Controls from EEC-I through EEC-V and PTEC. During those 25 or so years Ford designed and built PCMs, injectors and pumps and other sensors. Some of the designs were licensed from other manufacturers, but some were original. Ford Microelectronics (defunct) actually did much of the design work on the CPU chip inside the EEC-V (there was a lot of carry over from the EEC-IV chip).

 

Things really ramped up with EEC-IV and the creation of the Electronics Division. Ultimately this was spun off as Visteon, but Ford kept software development "in house". For some period of time Ford of Europe and Ford of Australia both attempted software development.

 

To the best of my knowledge all Ford specific software development is done in Dearborn. Some vehicles still use "systems" (which include software) purchased from outside (I'm pretty certain Fiesta is an example).

[Ford Jellymoulds]

"I anxiously await the revised quote from Bosch," she retorted.

 

I grinned.

 

Expensive diesels are built with expensive parts.

 

Only American made vehicle that the USA 300 million Americans can come up with to sell to the UK is Jeep gotta say l might considering buying one. It pushes all the right buttons it is one of the few American imports to the UK that come with a steering wheel fitted on the R/H side & a LPG gasoline/diesel engine options only but where it is an epic fail here it is a typical American gas guzzler that nobody can afford to fill up thats why American made cars SUV etc will never sell in Europe. Your laws are hypocritical you ban exclude diesels but Californian loved the smell of NOx at LAX airport one of the most polluted in the world, Californians also enjoy sniffing in more NOx from shipping, guzzle through more gasoline/diesel/kerosene bunker fuels than China which is not bad for just one State in the US.

 

UK car sales were 51% Diesel, 48% Gasoline & others 1% in July, can't help but think our roads would be flooded out with Toyhonda's if we did not do diesels Richard, BMW are the only company with better gasoline engines in Europe when ever you go online punch in cars with over 100,000 miles on the clock and with bodies that have not fallen apart into AutoTrader. BMW alway have one of the highest numbers of old car with high mileage to sales ratios when it comes to gasoline cars. Mondeo & Focus fleet/rental diesels sales are very high here they would wiped out if we ever banned diesels here Richard.

 

 

Jeep was the biggest selling American Import into the UK in July, Brits brought 71 gas guzzling Jeeps in July how does that compare to diesel sales Stateside? When l see Obama preaching about the US selling more American made products with American made hands l think to myself you have not got a hope in hells chance with 71 gas guzzling Jeep sales and we are more open you can sell just about any Jeep, Dodge or Chevy Silverado you wanted in Europe but nobody would be able to fill them up here thats why we buy diesels, and when peak oil peaks, dips and $147 oil becomes the norm the US rule books will be rewritten overnight on diesels the same thing happened here the UK has gone from almost zero to over 50% diesel sales last month in just over a decade Richard, l used to think the same as you do about diesels about 15 years ago Richard, but l have changed maintenance is a piece of cake, the engines are much more durable the MPG is a big bonus, better torque, lower CO2 global warming crap l don't give a shit about it and the VW Golf 1.6 (Mentioned above not sold in the USA) pumps out less NOx than your Prius, so most Europeans don't give a shit what you think Richard.

 

New VW Golf diesel (Not sold in the USA) NOx 0.00129g/km

£18685

LINK

New Toyota Prius NOx 0.006g/km

£19,905

LINK

 

You can keep your cancerous Prius Stateside Richard.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Inselaffe]

So are you saying the parts are all Bosch, but all the programming to make it all work is all Ford? I was just trying to find out the extent of Bosch's involvement in the creation of Ecoboost. Who owns the parts doesn't concern me as much as who is the one that is making Ecoboost successful.

 

Very simplistically that's true, it is always Ford's responsibility to make the engine work. It is the job of Ford to specify the control architecture (sensors, actuators, etc) and also develop the strategy (algorithms, look-up tables, etc) that control the powertrain. Sometimes Ford will go for outside help if they haven't got the capability or resources to do this, they will use a consultancy like Ricardo, AVL, or FEV and this happens more often than people realise.

 

Bosch have only ever been a component & systems supplier, they have never been the one to develop or calibrate the engine nor are they willing to do so. However they are the ones who have been at the forefront of developing GDI systems (with a lot of crossover technology from their diesel fuel system business) and they will have an excellent understanding of anticipating the needs and requirements to enable these strategies reliably. The perils of mixing and matching systems and components from different suppliers (including developing in-house components again) must never be under-estimated.

 

I was directly (or indirectly) involved with Electronic Engine (and Transmission) Controls from EEC-I through EEC-V and PTEC. During those 25 or so years Ford designed and built PCMs, injectors and pumps and other sensors. Some of the designs were licensed from other manufacturers, but some were original. Ford Microelectronics (defunct) actually did much of the design work on the CPU chip inside the EEC-V (there was a lot of carry over from the EEC-IV chip).

 

Things really ramped up with EEC-IV and the creation of the Electronics Division. Ultimately this was spun off as Visteon, but Ford kept software development "in house". For some period of time Ford of Europe and Ford of Australia both attempted software development.

 

To the best of my knowledge all Ford specific software development is done in Dearborn. Some vehicles still use "systems" (which include software) purchased from outside (I'm pretty certain Fiesta is an example).

 

I'm aware of Ford's background in this and it saddens me how this part of the business was neglected and spun-off. I'll be very interested to see what stuff is done in-house or in partnership again.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Inselaffe

[jpd80]

Most of the software on the 3.5L EcoBoost is Bosch software as are most of the sensors, actuators, including injectors and PCM.

 

 

Ford is doing much more of the software on the N.A. 2.0L EcoBoost, but still not 100%. Bosch is still supplying the PCM and some of the software (less than 50%; maybe less than 25%). Some of the other sensors and actuators are not Bosch.

 

Precisely, Ford used the Bosch GDI management system as a start up only and always intended to

then subcontract out the various components to drive down the costs. Their use of Honeywell turbos

as a separate supply contract is one example, I know that Mahle/Bosch weren't ready/geared up

for the contract but either way, they were never in the hunt. Look for possible ECU subletting,

we know the injector business for GEN II is going elsewhere (Continental?) so i wouldn't be

surprise to see pumps sourced elsewhere as well....

 

FoE have a few shocks in store for Bosch on the diesel injector supply side of the equation,

Dearborn now insists on competitive quotes, hence Barb Z's caustic responses to Bosch engineer.

It will be interesting to see if Ford lets out more of its lucrative injector and pump supply contracts,

that will open up a can of worms as FoE and Bosch have a "cosy relationship"......

Edited August 8, 2010 by jpd80

[Inselaffe]

FoE have a few shocks in store for Bosch on the diesel injector supply side of the equation,

Dearborn now insists on competitive quotes, hence Barb Z's caustic responses to Bosch engineer.

It will be interesting to see if Ford lets out more of its lucrative injector and pump supply contracts,

that will open up a can of worms as FoE and Bosch have a "cosy relationship"......

 

Absolute crap! Could not be further from the truth about Bosch and FoE, you obviously know f-all about the history of diesel FIE supply to FoE.

 

Where did you get the idea that the relationship is cosy?

Edited August 8, 2010 by Inselaffe

[jpd80]

Absolute crap! Could not be further from the truth about Bosch and FoE, you obviously know f-all about the history of diesel FIE supply to FoE.

 

Where did you get the idea that the relationship is cosy?

Sigh,

You obviously didn't pick up that I was being sarcastic.......

 

Please read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that all of my posts so far points to Ford

moving away from Bosch as a supplier, would that be so if the relationship was indeed cosy?

Barb Z's comments are a small spill over of behind the scenes feelings between Ford and Bosch.

 

Now do you get my drift.........................

Edited August 8, 2010 by jpd80

[theoldwizard]

Very simplistically that's true, it is always Ford's responsibility to make the engine work.

Their responsibility ends with meeting emission, safety and fuel economy standards. Indirectly they are responsible for driveabilty because customers will not buy cars that do not drive well.

 

It is the job of Ford to specify the control architecture (sensors, actuators, etc) and also develop the strategy (algorithms, look-up tables, etc) that control the powertrain.

Not when Ford buys a "system", which they have done and will probably continue to do in the future.

 

Sometimes Ford will go for outside help if they haven't got the capability or resources to do this, they will use a consultancy like Ricardo, AVL, or FEV and this happens more often than people realise.

True. The organization you named are typically involved with testing and calibration.

 

The perils of mixing and matching systems and components from different suppliers (including developing in-house components again) must never be under-estimated.

Well, I have been told this is where Ford is heading with future GTDI engines.

 

I'm aware of Ford's background in this and it saddens me how this part of the business was neglected and spun-off. I'll be very interested to see what stuff is done in-house or in partnership again.

At this point in time, the only things I see staying "in house" are software ("strategy") and calibration. Attempts at out sourcing these have proven to be more expensive.