Burning Koran = killing people and we apologize?

[RangerM]

Just as it is when you say you are spreading Democracy and peace with the barrel of a gun. How many innocent have we killed in the last 10 years? How do they feel about it?

I don't recall "spreading democracy" as sole reason for anything done in the last ten years. I am aware of it given as a positive side-effect in a post-no-WMD-found-in-Iraq world. But it doesn't defray from the fact that Saddam was a bad guy. Was he bad enough to warrant going in? At the time, it seemed so.

 

If you wish to disagree, I'll ask the same question I'd ask of Dr. Paul...........

 

Does America have to be attacked--with the possibility of the death of American citizens--before invading the (potential) attacker?

 

I think Dr. Paul has said no, but he muddies those waters a lot, imo.

Perhaps, one should study the effects of Christianity, The rise of the British empire and even American influence on Wahibbism within Islam. This form of Islam grew with much help from things like the Spanish inquisition and other attempts to rid the world of a much more open, learned and forgiving brand of Islam. What they did was put is Islam in the fire and hardened it.

Even though I am Christian, I reject the notion that I am guilty of the sins of my (Christian) forebears. I also don't hold anyone guilty of anything committed against them, either. (not that you're accusing me)

Edited February 27, 2012 by RangerM

[Mark B. Morrow]

It is difficult to understand a society that accepts a moral equivalance between murdering the innocent and burning a book.

 

 

Is it really that difficult to understand a society that is so bereft of education, impossibly poor and has no hope of a better life other than what is preached to them as a paradise of martyrdom? Afghanistan cannot be understood based on our terms. It must be viewed on its own terms.

 

These are a people who live their lives acting out certuries old battles with rival clans over causes no one remembers. Karzai and his corrupt government don't really control much beyond Kabul. The uneducated young men are an easy sell for the Taliban or anyone else who wants us out.

 

The Americans are seen as invaders and occupyiers of their country. We do not speak their language or understand their culture. We think of them as backward. We don't know which of them are with us and which are against us. They think of us as brutal. We apologize for mistakes of modern warfare that kill their civilians and blow up their homes and they aren't ready to forgive.

 

I have no doubt that under the opposite circumstances, any part of America would be just as impossible for a foreign army to control.

[Mark B. Morrow]

Well when I see people (here) burning the American flag I would like to cause them some harm but that does not give me the right to do so no matter how it makes me feel. Burning a book and killing others not even remotely connected to the act is pretty despicable. Those that partially accept or condone those actions are no different than the assholes over in the sandbox.

 

 

Maybe you can get matching T-shirts like this happy guy.

He has no problem with the +3000 people that died for doing nothing except going to work that day.

He needs an extra button hole from afar.

 

 

 

Cal, do you think that when Afghans, Iraquis or Pakistanis see Americans they associate us with the bombs that fall on their homes and kill their families? I'm sure that many of the civilians killed over the last decade didn't have anything to do with 9/11, al Quaeda or the Taliban. All they know is that Americans killed their loved ones. They don't differentiate between good Americans and bad ones.

 

Just like some here don't differentiate between good Muslims and bad ones.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Mark B. Morrow

[RangerM]

Is it really that difficult to understand a society that is so bereft of education, impossibly poor and has no hope of a better life other than what is preached to them as a paradise of martyrdom? Afghanistan cannot be understood based on our terms. It must be viewed on its own terms.

If we were talking about martyrdom, it might be different. But we're talking about murder, not martyrdom. Murder committed against an innocent party; not even a matter of self-defense.

 

Trying to draw a parallel with thinking like that is probably easier if you were asking a Crip or a Blood. But I'm neither, and don't care to share the mindset.

[fmccap]

 

I have no doubt that under the opposite circumstances, any part of America would be just as impossible for a foreign army to control.

nobody would stand a chance here except for the most liberal parts, and I don't believe the rest of us would even let that happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

[Mark B. Morrow]

If we were talking about martyrdom, it might be different. But we're talking about murder, not martyrdom. Murder committed against an innocent party; not even a matter of self-defense.

 

Trying to draw a parallel with thinking like that is probably easier if you were asking a Crip or a Blood. But I'm neither, and don't care to share the mindset.

 

 

The Crips and Bloods are a good comparison. Many gangbangers have little hope for the future and take deadly offense at the smallest sign of disrespect. Some of the Afghan, Iraqi and Pakistani murderers are trying for martyrdom whether by suicide bomb or suicide mission, they do not expect to survive.

 

While I don't care to share the mindset either, I think it is important to understand it as a means of fighting it. The antidote to hopelessness is hope and belief in a brighter future here on earth.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Mark B. Morrow

[RangerM]

The Crips and Bloods are a good comparison. Many gangbangers have little hope for the future and take deadly offense at the smallest sign of disrespect. Some of the Afghan, Iraqi and Pakistani murderers are trying for martyrdom whether by suicide bomb or suicide mission, they do not expect to survive.

 

While I don't care to share the mindset either, I think it is important to understand it as a means of fighting it. The antidote to hopelessness is hope and belief in a brighter future here on earth.

Hopelessness is a result of no faith in onesself and/or one's ability to better himself. (and I would include faith in God with it, but we can keep religion out of it, since in the case of the Afghans, the faith has been twisted)

 

And the only hope for that future is freedom, and faith in it. How you go about instilling that is up for debate.

Edited February 28, 2012 by RangerM

[cal50]

Cal, do you think that when Afghans, Iraquis or Pakistanis see Americans they associate us with the bombs that fall on their homes and kill their families? I'm sure that many of the civilians killed over the last decade didn't have anything to do with 9/11, al Quaeda or the Taliban. All they know is that Americans killed their loved ones. They don't differentiate between good Americans and bad ones.

 

Just like some here don't differentiate between good Muslims and bad ones.

 

 

 

Civilian casualties are always a horrible side effect of war or an armed conflict. When that occurs its hard for those losses to be forgotten and sometimes never is. Japan is a good example. The losses at Pearl Harbor, in the pacific and the Bataan death march colored several people to hate Japanese or Asian's as a group. When we dropped 2 atomic bombs on civilians in Japan and incinerated +100,000 people it was one ups man ship at the highest level and I am sure some Japanese despise Americans from that incident even today.

 

Unlike Japan where we specifically targeted the civilian population with nukes ( or Doolittle fire bombing the cities) any civilian losses now are accidental.

 

It matter little to the haters on the ground on either side.

Both will use any loss to advance their agenda.

[silvrsvt]

Is it really that difficult to understand a society that is so bereft of education, impossibly poor and has no hope of a better life other than what is preached to them as a paradise of martyrdom? Afghanistan cannot be understood based on our terms. It must be viewed on its own terms.

 

These are a people who live their lives acting out certuries old battles with rival clans over causes no one remembers. Karzai and his corrupt government don't really control much beyond Kabul. The uneducated young men are an easy sell for the Taliban or anyone else who wants us out.

 

The Americans are seen as invaders and occupyiers of their country. We do not speak their language or understand their culture. We think of them as backward. We don't know which of them are with us and which are against us. They think of us as brutal. We apologize for mistakes of modern warfare that kill their civilians and blow up their homes and they aren't ready to forgive.

 

I have no doubt that under the opposite circumstances, any part of America would be just as impossible for a foreign army to control.

 

The problem is that you can't ignore it because it winds up killing your own people....how do you go about killing the cancer off before it kills you?

 

Short of killing everyone, there is no "easy" way of doing it....

[Die Wahrheit]

Burn a stack of bibles and see if any Catholics or other religious group stages a riot let and kills others. If they are that hung up on the treatment of an object over human life I think we can live just fine without trying to help that group of people. I have a feeling the situation is just being used to advance their already established dislike / hatred of western culture / America. If it was not the book burning it would be something else for them to rally around to kill others different than themselves.

 

Apologizing is an admission of wrong doing, that's incredibly stupid with this group of people who care more for a books well being over human life. But in their eyes we apparently are worth less than ink on paper.

 

 

Thats because catholics do not abide by the bible. They are lead by mans laws and morals not Gods. I have yet to hear the catholic priests apologize yet for their filthy actions!

[Imawhosure]

Bah, religious wars are stupid wars..........unless you are the ones protecting yourself from religious zealots.

 

Now then, who has stated they want to destroy whom? Was it Israel and the United States wanting to take out the Muslim Middle East, or rather is it the Middle East constantly threatening Israel and the United States?

 

If Iran is really as close to a nuclear weapon as it is reported, Israel is going to attack them. (and I am sure the Moussad knows if they are or not) And for anyone who is gonna lambast Israel for it, remember what we did with Cuba when they had nukes over there. If you attack the policy, you are attacking Kennedy. Good luck with that one.

 

It is gonna happen, and it is gonna happen sooner than later; and we are going to have to protect the Straits of Hormuz along with the tankers going through....sigh....again. The only Presidential candidate that would not do it, is the one running as a republican who is really an independent; so expect this scenario to happen probably this year!

[fmccap]

Ron Paul questions Hillary Clinton - Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan - 2/29/2012