All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers

[TomServo92]

LINK

 

So what was originally reported as "another shooting rampage" was really just dispute between former co-workers that turned violent and an over-reaction by incompetent NYPD officers.

 

Perhaps Mayor Bloomberg should quit worrying about more gun control laws and put some effort in to making sure his police officers get situational awareness training and spend some time at the gun range practicing.

[fmccap]

LINK

 

So what was originally reported as "another shooting rampage" was really just dispute between former co-workers that turned violent and an over-reaction by incompetent NYPD officers.

 

Perhaps Mayor Bloomberg should quit worrying about more gun control laws and put some effort in to making sure his police officers get situational awareness training and spend some time at the gun range practicing.

This is the reason why it is not plastered across all news channels like Colorado was.

 

I wonder if all these anti gun folks who called for getting rid of guns after Colorado are going to say we need to disarm law enforcement? Now that makes me wonder that if we do pass all these laws they want to make guns illegal are they willing to disarm law enforcement because we passed all this stuff to make us safe? They won't need any guns then, right?

[RangerM]

Passing laws against guns only insures that outlaws will have them.

[cal50]

LINK

 

So what was originally reported as "another shooting rampage" was really just dispute between former co-workers that turned violent and an over-reaction by incompetent NYPD officers.

 

Perhaps Mayor Bloomberg should quit worrying about more gun control laws and put some effort in to making sure his police officers get situational awareness training and spend some time at the gun range practicing.

 

 

 

Well if your a civilian or LE you are responsible for each round you fire and where or what it impacts.

Another "spray & pray" reaction.

 

A mini true story about a couple FBI agents and an indoor range~

 

A local indoor range has a good amount of traffic ranging from experienced shooters to novice & LE people. My friend & I was firing at the end of the range when two women came into the range wearing wind breakers and once removed both were packing SIG pistols and badges. They ran a couple silhouette targets to the end of the range ( 50 feet) and proceed to take turns firing at it. After a couple mags each the target came back with VERY few holes in it. They moved the target closer to about 21 feet and still stitched the target and never had a group to speak of. Their brass was landing on our side and they said they did not keep the fired brass so we took all of it. They got done and loaded and holstered their pistols and exited the range. I asked the guy at the counter "who were the bad shots" ? There were FBI agents from the Cleveland office and come out on occasion to burn up some department ammo.

 

The joke around the range was if they yell "halt" & your standing still they would never hit you but if you ran you might be hit by sheer luck.

Imagine if the target was firing back and your "hits" do not increase....

 

The moral of the story is a LOT more people fire a LOT more rounds than the majority of LE officers and and can better handle their weapons and fire more accurately.

If you feel "safer" becasue a cop with a gun is near by its a false sense of security sometimes or you get wounded like the NY. people.

 

If it was a civilian wounding multiple people Vs the cops the headlines would be much different.

[BB390fe]

My favorite by far... or God help us from the govt...

[BlackHorse]

LINK

 

So what was originally reported as "another shooting rampage" was really just dispute between former co-workers that turned violent and an over-reaction by incompetent NYPD officers.

 

Perhaps Mayor Bloomberg should quit worrying about more gun control laws and put some effort in to making sure his police officers get situational awareness training and spend some time at the gun range practicing.

 

Oh I'm sorry, perhaps you could impress us all by telling us exactly how you would react when some homocidal clown who has already shot and killed one person pulls his gun on a crowded street full of people in every direction.

 

The world is full of Monday morning quarterbacks.

Edited August 30, 2012 by BlackHorse

[TomServo92]

 

 

Oh I'm sorry, perhaps you could impress us all by telling us exactly how you would react when some homocidal clown who has already shot and killed one person pulls his gun on a crowded street full of people in every direction.

 

The world is full of Monday morning quarterbacks.

 

Police officers are supposed to be trained for these situations. I have two friends who are police officers (one in Dallas SWAT and the other on the Houston bomb squad) and they were critical of the officers reaction. Stop making excuses for something for which you know nothing.

[TomServo92]

I just read that NYPD requires that all handguns have a minimum 12 pound trigger pull (your typical handgun is around 8 pounds). A heavy trigger pull affects accuracy BIG time. If that's the case, I'll cut the officers some slack and lay some blame on police leadership and the city for requiring such a ridiculous trigger weight.

[BlackHorse]

Police officers are supposed to be trained for these situations. I have two friends who are police officers (one in Dallas SWAT and the other on the Houston bomb squad) and they were critical of the officers reaction. Stop making excuses for something for which you know nothing.

 

Sure. Just as soon as you quit laying out accusation regarding a situation about which you know nothing. How about that? The fact is you weren't there and I couldn't care less about your cop buddies that said this and that. They weren't there either. Exactly how do you train for a situation in which there are background targets in literally every direction and yet the offender has made clear his intentions to engage in a gun fight regardless? Please tell us all what miraculous training technique those officers could have used? Surely your friend on Dallas SWAT has imparted to you what those officers should have done. Sometimes bad things happen and there is nothing that can be done about it. That's just reality. Those officers are on a very crowded New York city street with people around them in every direction and the offender had decided that he would engage them in a gun fight. They could either defend themselves or they could hold their fire out of frear that their rounds could strike a background target. The second option also means the officers run the much greater risk of being shot themselves. Furthermore Dallas and Houston are both cities that do not have a large precentage of the city population on foot up and down sidewalks all day because they are more modern cities that developed after the introduction of the automobile and the population is spread out. The populations in those cities are much more mobile by means of their own personal automobiles. I don't think either of them even has a subway system and if they do it is surely not nearly as expansive as the New York subway system that has to move millions of people everyday because so much of the population there is on foot. That means your police buddies are very, very unlikely to ever find themselves in the kind of situation that took place in New York.

Edited August 30, 2012 by BlackHorse

[TomServo92]

 

 

Sure. Just as soon as you quit laying out accusation regarding a situation about which you know nothing. How about that? The fact is you weren't there and I couldn't care less about your cop buddies that said this and that. They weren't there either. Exactly how do you train for a situation in which there are background targets in literally every direction and yet the offender has made clear his intentions to engage in a gun fight regardless? Please tell us all what miraculous training technique those officers could have used? Surely your friend on Dallas SWAT has imparted to you what those officers should have done. Sometimes bad things happen and there is nothing that can be done about it. That's just reality. Those officers are on a very crowded New York city street with people around them in every direction and the offender had decided that he would engage them in a gun fight. They could either defend themselves or they could hold their fire out of frear that their rounds could strike a background target. The second option also means the officers run the much greater risk of being shot themselves. Furthermore Dallas and Houston are both cities that do not have a large precentage of the city population on foot up and down sidewalks all day because they are more modern cities that developed after the introduction of the automobile and the population is spread out. The populations in those cities are much more mobile by means of their own personal automobiles. I don't think either of them even has a subway system and if they do it is surely not nearly as expansive as the New York subway system that has to move millions of people everyday because so much of the population there is on foot. That means your police buddies are very, very unlikely to ever find themselves in the kind of situation that took place in New York.

 

Whatever man. If you want to make excuses for incompetent police work, that's your prerogative. I stand by what I've posted in this thread.

[akirby]

They fired 16 times at a suspect a few feet away and only hit him 3 times but managed to hit 3 bystanders.

 

Yes, it was heat of the moment, adrenalin, etc. but that's why they train.

[BlackHorse]

Whatever man. If you want to make excuses for incompetent police work, that's your prerogative. I stand by what I've posted in this thread.

 

That's what I thought, no explaniation at all, just "whatever man I just want to bash on the cops, blah blah blah." I mean you want to talk about not having a clue what other posters are talking about and yet your the one that tosses out this silly "Police Officers are trained for situations like this." A statement that lets me know that the only one that doesn't have a clue was you. Here's the reality about a gun fight, they are always unpredictable and full of variables that you never imagined could happen. There is not some magic training technique that they can just say "Oh, shooting on a crowded street, use training technique X." or "Oh, shooting on a bus full of nuns, use traning technique 3J." or "Oh, shooting in an abandon apartment building full of homeless bums, use training technique W." It is always a judgement call and a real gun fight is never going to be like the training because the adrenaline gets pumping and the bad guy is going to do things you don't expect. In real life bad buys are not pop up paper targets that don't move. In real life the shooting skills of a police officer are not honed to some razor sharp perfection so that he / she can hit a moving target on a crowded street with every single shot like some TV show imaginery cop. Real life doesn't work that way. And it's not that I'm just blindly defending the officers here either. But the fact is, none of us were there. We weren't the ones faced with that situation so sitting around and monday morning quaterbacking it with a bunch of should coulda woulda is just silly. There will be an investigation. Lets give the officers the benefit of the doubt.

[cal50]

If the police shot the civilians it is what is is and they are the ones responsible.

The police are under no obligation (legally) to save your life in a crisis but they are not suppose to wound or kill innocent bystanders either.

 

Rater than inject emotion on the situation its easier to see what shots were fired and whom shot who.

Police have a tough job but its not a free pass for a negligent shooting.

 

The same rules apply for anyone carrying a firearm, if you are unsure of your target you do not fire, period.

I doubt the people shot "feel better" it was from a cops gun and not the assailant.

[TomServo92]

That's what I thought, no explaniation at all, just "whatever man I just want to bash on the cops, blah blah blah." I mean you want to talk about not having a clue what other posters are talking about and yet your the one that tosses out this silly "Police Officers are trained for situations like this." A statement that lets me know that the only one that doesn't have a clue was you. Here's the reality about a gun fight, they are always unpredictable and full of variables that you never imagined could happen. There is not some magic training technique that they can just say "Oh, shooting on a crowded street, use training technique X." or "Oh, shooting on a bus full of nuns, use traning technique 3J." or "Oh, shooting in an abandon apartment building full of homeless bums, use training technique W." It is always a judgement call and a real gun fight is never going to be like the training because the adrenaline gets pumping and the bad guy is going to do things you don't expect. In real life bad buys are not pop up paper targets that don't move. In real life the shooting skills of a police officer are not honed to some razor sharp perfection so that he / she can hit a moving target on a crowded street with every single shot like some TV show imaginery cop. Real life doesn't work that way. And it's not that I'm just blindly defending the officers here either. But the fact is, none of us were there. We weren't the ones faced with that situation so sitting around and monday morning quaterbacking it with a bunch of should coulda woulda is just silly. There will be an investigation. Lets give the officers the benefit of the doubt.

 

It's very simple Blackhorse (even you can understand it). If you watch the video of the shooting (you did watch video, right?), the officers are only a few feet from the assailant. It shouldn't take 16 wild shots to put 3 rounds into someone and injure 9 bystanders at that range IF the officers had spent sufficient time at the gun range and were proficient with their firearms. New York City isn't Mayberry, NC and shouldn't have officers with the shooting skill of Barney Fife.

 

Clear enough for you?

Edited August 30, 2012 by TomServo92

[TomServo92]

If the police shot the civilians it is what is is and they are the ones responsible.

The police are under no obligation (legally) to save your life in a crisis but they are not suppose to wound or kill innocent bystanders either.

 

Rater than inject emotion on the situation its easier to see what shots were fired and whom shot who.

Police have a tough job but its not a free pass for a negligent shooting.

 

The same rules apply for anyone carrying a firearm, if you are unsure of your target you do not fire, period.

I doubt the people shot "feel better" it was from a cops gun and not the assailant.

 

Correct. It is the officers responsibility to assess the situation. They KNEW the suspect had just shot someone and was probably armed and yet they decided to confront him on a busy street. Poor decision making to go with their poor marksmanship.

[BlackHorse]

It's very simple Blackhorse (even you can understand it). If you watch the video of the shooting (you did watch video, right?), the officers are only a few feet from the assailant. It shouldn't take 16 wild shots to put 3 rounds into someone and injure 9 bystanders at that range IF the officers had spent sufficient time at the gun range and were proficient with their firearms. New York City isn't Mayberry, NC and shouldn't have officers with the shooting skill of Barney Fife.

 

Clear enough for you?

 

 

LMAO Do you really think that Police Officers shoot hundreds of rounds a month at some range somewhere? You think even a city like New York could afford that much ammunition for that many officers? Even if the city could afford it, they aren't going to spend it. The reality is that the majority of police officers visit the range a few times a year at most and that is all that is required of them by their departments. Once again you are confusing what you watched on some TV cop show with what really is. Furthermore, you obviously have no idea how easy it is to miss someone in a gun fight, even at close range. This is just more of your monday morning quarterback nonsense.

[BlackHorse]

Correct. It is the officers responsibility to assess the situation. They KNEW the suspect had just shot someone and was probably armed and yet they decided to confront him on a busy street. Poor decision making to go with their poor marksmanship.

 

I guess what they should have done was wait until he shot someone else on the street before confronting him. Good idea. They didn't know what this guy was all about. They didn't know if it was just a personal grudge where he just wanted to shoot one person or was about to go all out and try to commit some massacre. And if he had decided to shoot more people while the police are hanging back and "assessing the situation" then guys like you and Tom would be on here complaining about how the police didn't do anything while this guy shot a bunch of people.

Edited August 31, 2012 by BlackHorse

[TomServo92]

I guess what they should have done was wait until he shot someone else on the street before confronting him. Good idea. They didn't know what this guy was all about. They didn't know if it was just a personal grudge where he just wanted to shoot one person or was about to go all out and try to commit some massacre. And if he had decided to shoot more people while the police are hanging back and "assessing the situation" then guys like you and Tom would be on here complaining about how the police didn't do anything while this guy shot a bunch of people.

 

Armed suspects are dealt with all the time, every day in the streets. Yet we don't hear about 9 civilians wounded in the process. How do you explain that?

 

I'll save you the time: Well trained, competent officers know how to do it without endangering the public.

 

OK, let's hear your next excuse for incompetence....

[akirby]

I guess what they should have done was wait until he shot someone else on the street before confronting him. Good idea. They didn't know what this guy was all about. They didn't know if it was just a personal grudge where he just wanted to shoot one person or was about to go all out and try to commit some massacre. And if he had decided to shoot more people while the police are hanging back and "assessing the situation" then guys like you and Tom would be on here complaining about how the police didn't do anything while this guy shot a bunch of people.

 

If 2 officers have to fire 16 shots to take down one perpetrator from a few feet away and hit 3 bystanders directly and many more with shrapnel - they should not be carrying guns. It's that simple.

 

And the original point was that the headline was implying that the perpetrator went on a shooting spree hitting numerous innocent people and that wasn't even close to the truth.

[BlackHorse]

Armed suspects are dealt with all the time, every day in the streets. Yet we don't hear about 9 civilians wounded in the process. How do you explain that?

 

I'll save you the time: Well trained, competent officers know how to do it without endangering the public.

 

OK, let's hear your next excuse for incompetence....

 

I just love it when some civilian starts trying to tell professional responders how to do their job, like they can do it any better. You think you got all the answers Tom, then you and Akirby feel free to go to the Police Academy, strap on a badge and show us all how its done big man. Until then you're JAFO.

Edited August 31, 2012 by BlackHorse

[TomServo92]

I just love it when some civilian starts trying to tell professional responders how to do their job, like they can do it any better. You think you got all the answers Tom, then you and Akirby feel free to go to the Police Academy, strap on a badge and show us all how its done big man. Until then you're JAFO.

 

Attend any gun safety course (which I have) and the first three things they tell you are:

 

1) Always assume your gun is loaded

2) Don't aim your gun at anything unless you're willing to destroy it

3) Always know what is behind your target before you shoot.

 

Those are BASIC rules taught to civilians. Don't you think professional law enforcement officers should have at least that amount of training? Obviously they didn't understand #3.

 

Look, if I know this (not being professional), it was a shock to me that trained officers didn't know it. I have high regard for law enforcement but I'm not giving them a pass on such a FUNDAMENTAL concept of gun safety. It isn't amateur hour.

 

This is SUCH a simple concept. Since you can't comprehend it, you must be the JAFO. Because it seems everyone else here "gets it".

[TomServo92]

I also find it amusing that you accuse us of "knowing how to do a police officer's job" yet you're telling us they did it right. F'ing hypocrite...

[cal50]

I just love it when some civilian starts trying to tell professional responders how to do their job, like they can do it any better. You think you got all the answers Tom, then you and Akirby feel free to go to the Police Academy, strap on a badge and show us all how its done big man. Until then you're JAFO.

 

 

No one was / is telling them how to do their job.......except when they are firing on and hitting innocent bystanders which is clearly wrong.

If in doubt or you can not identify your target you do not fire, period.

 

If anything its yet another example of how well armed and proficient civilians carrying weapons is often better than ill trained or equipped police officers.

I have some cop friends that can more than hold their own and some carry a pistol because its issued and they have to. Most cops are lousy shots IMHO.

 

 

(Biased opinion coming from an NRA certified pistol instructor and competitive shooter)

[BlackHorse]

I also find it amusing that you accuse us of "knowing how to do a police officer's job" yet you're telling us they did it right. F'ing hypocrite...

 

I have no idea if they did it right. I wasn't there and if you think you can figure it all out by watching some grainy video it just further shows your complete lack of any real knowledge on the subject. What I said was there will be an investigation and lets give the officers the benefit of the doubt. If the investigation determines that they did something wrong then they will be punished accordingly and if not, they won't be. My main issue here is that some of you seem to think you can do the job better and you have already decided these officers did something wrong when in point fact you don't know that the f*** you're talking about.

[TomServo92]

I have no idea if they did it right. I wasn't there and if you think you can figure it all out by watching some grainy video it just further shows your complete lack of any real knowledge on the subject. What I said was there will be an investigation and lets give the officers the benefit of the doubt. If the investigation determines that they did something wrong then they will be punished accordingly and if not, they won't be. My main issue here is that some of you seem to think you can do the job better and you have already decided these officers did something wrong when in point fact you don't know that the f*** you're talking about.

 

First, the original point of this thread (before it got derailed) was that the it wasn't a lone gunman mowing people down in the streets as the press reported before the facts were known. It was a criticism of the gun control crowd.

 

Second I never said I could it do it better. NOT ONE TIME. I criticized their actions based on the facts (16 shots fired, 3 hits on perpetrator, 9 civilians wounded). I also based that criticism on the gun safety I've been taught. You criticize Ford all the time. Can you design and manufacturer a car? I highly doubt it. But you base your criticism on what you know about the Focus you bought. You can't do the job but that doesn't stop YOU from criticizing. Again, a hypocrite.

 

Third, I agree that the investigation will reveal the truth. I posted earlier that I cut them some slack based the department's requirement for a 12 pound minimum trigger pull. Until the investigation is complete, nobody will know for SURE. However, based on the facts we know, they appear to have acted with disregard for public safety when confronting the perpetrator. If more facts come out that change the narrative, I will adjust my opinion and criticism of the officers. Until then, I stand by every post I have made in this thread 100%.