napfirst Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 He campaigned at a time when nobody knew just how bad things really were. It was far worse than than even Right leaning economists believed. A premise which presupposed a "Loyal Opposition" that was committed to making things better. What he got was an opposition committed to making things worse. That shouldn't be too hard for you to understand. Private sector jobs steadily, but too slowly, increasing while government jobs decreased. Don't let FACTS get in your way Nap. Here's some facts Mark...while campaiging he said, "this is the worst recession since the great depression"......now what part of that do you and Retro not understand?.......so don't tell us he didn't know how bad it was....he said it in that statement......he is obviously in over his head and was willing to say anything to get elected............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Here's some facts Mark...while campaiging he said, "this is the worst recession since the great depression"......now what part of that do you and Retro not understand?.......so don't tell us he didn't know how bad it was....he said it in that statement......he is obviously in over his head and was willing to say anything to get elected............. Oh, I understand it well - and have said it many times myself. That's why I laugh at the nincompoops who act all shocked that Obama hasn't returned us to 1999 in his 42 months in office. He did affect a pretty good turnaround from where we were headed at the time he took office. Here is a graph showing number of jobs lost month-by-month. The graph bottoms out in January 2009, the month Obama took office. Currently (for the time being anyway), jobs are being created, not lost. We were plunging off a cliff. But I'm sure that's Franklin Raines' or somebody's fault. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal50 Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 Wow , breaking even on job's is moving forward? That's similar to Obama claiming he is reducing the debt after he increased it in 4 years at a rate Bush did in 8 years. Yep, that there is moving forward..... http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57400369-503544/national-debt-has-increased-more-under-obama-than-under-bush/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Tell me when we're supposed to cut spending - or do you still think it's ok to keep going the way we're going even with increased tax revenue? Look - I have said - repeatedly - that spending seems to be about 5% of GDP too high, and revenues about 5% too low. But why shouldn't those who voted Obama into office - on "hope and change", on a platform that included doing - finally - something about healthcare that Presidents from FDR on have been trying to accomplish, but have been obstructed at every turn by the party of "no", who have not put together a cohesive (and realistic) plan of their own - ever - and when one of them finally does and Obama adopts it they shoot it down .... (take a breath).. why shouldn't we be pissed after watching the [disrespectful characterization deleted] who YOUR party foisted on the country in a hotly contested, suspicious, negative popular vote coup, WRECK the economy, wreck our reputation in the world (I know you don't get out much, so that doesn't mean anything to you), leave a big stinking mess - with not a peep from his own party (if there was, please post me some links) about deficit spending - indeed, Vice President Vader famously stated "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." - that was the whole schtick of your party. Then the people, by a margin that George the younger could only dream about elect Obama to take us away from what was an 8 year national nightmare for anyone with brains - but merely a vaguely unfortunate episode occasioning many mumbled disclaimers ("grumble grumble, er, uh, he was not a real conservative, grumble mumble") and disjointed rationales, but mostly just silence, from those who had had the astoundingly poor judgement to support him - as soon as we elect Obama, all of a sudden Oooooh, the deficits! Gotta worry about the deficits!!! (all of a sudden) Where was your sense of responsibility the previous 8 years? Wreck the country, then lock up the check book. Class act all the way. When the Bush administration was passing the Patriot act, stripping away your protections - when they were doing things to prisoners that we EXECUTED Japanese for doing the exact same thing 50 years before - when they were getting warrantless wiretaps, and extraordinary rendition, when they were lying to Congress to start a pre-planned war and all the rest, the big line around here I remember was "Well [sniff] there was this little thing called 911 that you may have forgotten about..". Now when we read you your own words and remind you of your own voting record on the debt ceiling, you're all "Well [sniff] this is the biggest economic collapse since The Great Depression you know." How convenient your timing is for you. Hypocrites. Edited August 31, 2012 by retro-man 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Wow , breaking even on job's is moving forward? That's similar to Obama claiming he is reducing the debt after he increased it in 4 years at a rate Bush did in 8 years. Yep, that there is moving forward..... http://www.cbsnews.c...han-under-bush/ Here - let me expand the timeline for you, oh ye of selective memory: When Obama took office, we were losing 700,000 jobs per month. Now we are gaining. Not fast enough - nobody's arguing that - but gaining. McCain / Palin wouldn't have been doing any better by now - even given the fact that they, at least, would have had the benefit of an opposition in Congress that wasn't a pit of vipers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 I am not giving the Republicans a free pass on anything. They've been almost as bad as the Democrats. My point was that someone finally stood up and tried to put a stake in the ground and say that the overspending needs to stop here. It should have been done years before - no argument there. But to say that it was wrong is just partisan bias. They offered a compromise - extend the ceiling now but agree to balance the budget before it needs to be raised again. Democrats think government spending is good and more government spending is better - as long as somebody else is footing the bill. And they don't seem to understand basic financial tenets about revenue and debt and living within your means. Republicans understand it but can't bring themselves to make cuts that affect their home states or pet projects. If you agree we need to curtail spending and stop deficit spending then don't villify the people who tried to do exactly that. if you think we need to continue deficit spending then you need to have your head examined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Not disagreeing with the goal of cutting spending. What POs me is the timing. The timing, taken together with the historical behavior of the party, makes it look like the sudden concern for the deficit is not so much newfound fiscal responsibility as it is a convenient political tool for denying Obama the means to accomplish his policy objectives - or even, for that matter, to fix the mess he inherited. The goal being of course to paint him as a failure so that they can regain power for themselves. Doesn't matter how much collateral damage is done. Edited August 31, 2012 by retro-man 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 So you think continuing to spend like a drunken sailor is the way to fix the mess he inherited? That's the problem with all the partisan shenanigans - every time one party does something the other party interprets it as an attack and starts deflecting. Even if the idea itself is good. What is good for the country gets lost in the battle. It's not about doing the right thing - it's about your party winning and the other party losing. If you take parties out of the picture then the solution of extending the debt ceiling now in exchange for the promise of a balanced budget within 2 years is perfectly reasonable. Unless you're a democrat and it's proposed by a republican. And yes - it works the other way too. If we don't stop all the rah rah college football my team is great and your team sucks partisanship - we're all going to be screwed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal50 Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 At some point you have to accept ownership of a situation. The Obama fans will eternally blame any and all shortcomings on the "other" guy no mater how much time has elapsed. I get a kick out of people that come off as intelligent, articulate and supposedly objective but then gloss over several years of events becasue they may not be favorable to their guy. True party politicians hate the opposing side or team and always want to defeat them on any level. I am not sure what exactly that advances for the average guy but its been going on for too long on both sides. If that means spending more money we do not have then so be it and screw the timing shut it down. There is a stark contrast in ideas between liberals & conservative mindsets and a fixed amount of money provided to them by the tax payers. Sadly Obama was & is no different than the liberal democrats before him yet he promised something different. The end result is still playing out with a flat economy, bad unemployment numbers even after you massage them well and GDP numbers that are looming poorly. Lucky us. Making any reference to someone not involved for several years ( Bush) or people that never were involved ( McCain / Palin) is a pretty weak stretch. Seems like "moving forward" likes to keep focused in the rear view mirror a lot, maybe that explains why they do not know where they are going? Oh and the evil Patriot act that liberals fear, Obama extended, and I do give him credit for getting that one right. As much as I dislike liberals at least some people in the intelligence community is trying to keep you alive. Obama has largely followed the other guys lead in military affairs and intelligence. Bush was terrible on domestic issues but he left Obama a debt for 8 years that Obama has surpassed in 4 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napfirst Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Not disagreeing with the goal of cutting spending. What POs me is the timing. The timing, taken together with the historical behavior of the party, makes it look like the sudden concern for the deficit is not so much newfound fiscal responsibility as it is a convenient political tool for denying Obama the means to accomplish his policy objectives - or even, for that matter, to fix the mess he inherited. The goal being of course to paint him as a failure so that they can regain power for themselves. Doesn't matter how much collateral damage is done. He ask for the job...said he could fix the economy and knew full well what he was getting into....game over...he has failed ....and I'm over the excuses, it makes him look weak.......which by the way he is.......no leadership ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal50 Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) Here - let me expand the timeline for you, oh ye of selective memory: When Obama took office, we were losing 700,000 jobs per month. Now we are gaining. Not fast enough - nobody's arguing that - but gaining. McCain / Palin wouldn't have been doing any better by now - even given the fact that they, at least, would have had the benefit of an opposition in Congress that wasn't a pit of vipers. Yep, this is gaining alright......the jobs gained are not living wage jobs or long term employment work. Its kicking the can down the road with one side saying "look at all the new jobs!" and the other side saying there is still trouble lurking. http://www.nytimes.c...finds.html?_r=2 Edited September 1, 2012 by cal50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Doesn't anybody on this thread take into consideration that when the DemoRATS took control of Congress in 2006. They are the ones who legislated the laws and created them in the first place! All these policies that were created over the years by them and some of the Republicans are to blame for this entire financial mess to begin with! To continue to play the "Blame Bush" card simply doesn't work anymore. Period. By the way... like the $4 a gallon gas you're paying lately? I bet that's Bush's fault too! How come nobody, the same people who said that back in '08 aren't saying a word now? :fan: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Doesn't anybody on this thread take into consideration that when the DemoRATS took control of Congress in 2006. They are the ones who legislated the laws and created them in the first place! All these policies that were created over the years by them and some of the Republicans are to blame for this entire financial mess to begin with! To continue to play the "Blame Bush" card simply doesn't work anymore. Period. By the way... like the $4 a gallon gas you're paying lately? I bet that's Bush's fault too! How come nobody, the same people who said that back in '08 aren't saying a word now? :fan: Gas was $4.25 / Gal. in April of '08. I bet that was Obama's fault too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal50 Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 Gas was $4.25 / Gal. in April of '08. I bet that was Obama's fault too! ...........and more people working to better afford it sans cost then or today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Actually - that spike in gas prices may have been just one more straw on the camel's back leading to the big crash in October '08 (though officially, the recession had already started in late '07). Perhaps the flattening of the Chinese economy will give some relief to energy and commodity prices - particularly things like steel - this year. It is already impacting my profession though: in 2011 China accounted for fully half of Architectural billings worldwide. That has dropped off quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) At some point you have to accept ownership of a situation. The Obama fans will eternally blame any and all shortcomings on the "other" guy no mater how much time has elapsed. Blaming somebody else doesn't solve the problem. Bush did bad things to the economy but also good things. Obama has done bad things to the economy but also some good things. I don't think Bush, Obama, or McCain expected or could control the cliff we fell off of. Its hitting world wide so its not just Bush, Obama (or McCain had he won) but a worldwide lack of financial knowledge responsibility or caring. I hate to put this out there to the "stop blaming Bush" crowd but if Romney wins and the economy doesn't take off like a rocket (it won't no matter who wins), Romney's supporters will blame the situation on Obama. Just the way politics works. Blame the other guy and deflect. Edited September 1, 2012 by blazerdude20 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocheese Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Here's some facts Mark...while campaiging he said, "this is the worst recession since the great depression"......now what part of that do you and Retro not understand?.......so don't tell us he didn't know how bad it was....he said it in that statement......he is obviously in over his head and was willing to say anything to get elected............. Don't you know nap, we just took it out of context. Like every other thing he has said. It can't be his fault. I hate to put this out there to the "stop blaming Bush" crowd but if Romney wins and the economy doesn't take off like a rocket (it won't no matter who wins), Romney's supporters will blame the situation on Obama. Just the way politics works. Blame the other guy and deflect. I won't speak for others, but I won't be one of those people. Romney has campaigned on fixing the issues that have been caused by Clinton, Bush, Obama and the Democratic and Republican governments that have been in place the last 20 years. If he doesn't do it, then he should lose his job. Obama said he was the guy to fix things. He made them worse. It's time to go back to whatever he was doing before (seriously, someone tell me what note worthy thing this guy did before he launched his politician career in the living room of an known US terrorist, then voted "present" 106 times, avoiding making any real stand) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napfirst Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Gas was $4.25 / Gal. in April of '08. I bet that was Obama's fault too! When obama took office, which was the time period I was referencing, the price of gas was $1.84, today it's $3.75....now let's see if we take $1.84 and multiply that by 2that would be $3.68.....and that's less than the current $3.75...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rn4 Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) When obama took office, which was the time period I was referencing, the price of gas was $1.84, today it's $3.75....now let's see if we take $1.84 and multiply that by 2 that would be $3.68.....and that's less than the current $3.75...... I guess if your going to blame Obama for the rise in gas prices, your also going to credit him with the rise of the stock market. 01/20/2009 2009 Dow 7949.09 Close 08/31/2012 13,090.84 01/20/2009 2009 Nasdaq 1440.86 Close 08/31/2012 3066.96 01/20/2009 2009 S&P 500 805.23 Close 08/31/2012 1406.58 Edited September 3, 2012 by rn4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napfirst Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I guess if your going to blame Obama for the rise in gas prices, your also going to credit him with the rise of the stock market. 01/20/2009 2009 Dow 7949.09 Close 08/31/2012 13,090.84 01/20/2009 2009 Nasdaq 1440.86 Close 08/31/2012 3066.96 01/20/2009 2009 S&P 500 805.23 Close 08/31/2012 1406.58 I doubt that he had anything to do with that...he hates Wall Street...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal50 Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I guess if your going to blame Obama for the rise in gas prices, your also going to credit him with the rise of the stock market. 01/20/2009 2009 Dow 7949.09 Close 08/31/2012 13,090.84 01/20/2009 2009 Nasdaq 1440.86 Close 08/31/2012 3066.96 01/20/2009 2009 S&P 500 805.23 Close 08/31/2012 1406.58 Maybe you can explain how the president ( any president) single handed bumps Wall St. ? I think the employment rate is a little more important but that number is not being touted too much. It must be a duality of the brain how someone can cite the stock market as a success benchmark yet the same democrat minds came up with the Occupy Wall St. and the 1% BS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rn4 Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Maybe you can explain how the president ( any president) single handed bumps Oil prices. ? It must be a duality of the brain how someone can cite the oil prices as a fail benchmark yet the same right wing minds came up with the Tea Party BS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) Will somebody please explain to me when, exactly, are we supposed to stop overspending? Or do you think it's ok that we just keep extending the debt ceiling ad infinitum? Don't we have to put a stake in the ground at some point and cut spending rather than raise the debt higher and higher? Sorry for the small size, click to view. Edited September 5, 2012 by Ron W. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 When obama took office, which was the time period I was referencing, the price of gas was $1.84, today it's $3.75....now let's see if we take $1.84 and multiply that by 2 that would be $3.68.....and that's less than the current $3.75...... What was it in the summer of '08? Over $4 per gallon. THE only reason gas prices fell so hard is because people around the globe stopped doing or buying anything unless they really needed it. People were scared of the sudden drop in the global economy. OPEC had a lot of capacity it didn't need all of a sudden. OPEC helped to drop the price of crude because the nations depending on oil for most of their budgets were getting hit very hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal50 Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 What was it in the summer of '08? Over $4 per gallon. THE only reason gas prices fell so hard is because people around the globe stopped doing or buying anything unless they really needed it. People were scared of the sudden drop in the global economy. OPEC had a lot of capacity it didn't need all of a sudden. OPEC helped to drop the price of crude because the nations depending on oil for most of their budgets were getting hit very hard. It matters little if it was $4 then or $4 now, the rising cost of gasoline / energy still hits hard. Overall MAYBE people were better equipped to handle it in 08 than now. Peoples home value took a dive, personal investments have taken a hard hit and generally the overall economy is worse not than in 08 with higher unemployment. You can attach names or assign values as to whom and why but the numbers are still what they are in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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