Im pretty sure this was resolved before...

[IMBoring25]

The state of patent law is such that, when you discover that something you have developed, even if you developed it completely alone and with no outside input, resembles something that someone else has patented, it is often cheaper to license their patent (Be it through an exchange of licenses, a lump-sum payment, or royalties) than to pay the lawyers to battle it out.

 

As viciously as the two companies fought over T-150 and LS-8, I don't see that particular battle being to either company's advantage.

[Bluecon]

It's simple: You are willing to accept unsubstantiated allegations as authoratative.

 

Where's the sense in that? Why, Mein Kampf is FULL of unsubstantiated allegations. So is "The International Jew".

 

Read those books, and you'll have a nicely warped view of the world around you, all with as much evidence mustered in behalf of their arguments as your source has mustered on behalf of his.

And Mein Kampf has what to do with this discussion?

 

The state of patent law is such that, when you discover that something you have developed, even if you developed it completely alone and with no outside input, resembles something that someone else has patented, it is often cheaper to license their patent (Be it through an exchange of licenses, a lump-sum payment, or royalties) than to pay the lawyers to battle it out.

 

As viciously as the two companies fought over T-150 and LS-8, I don't see that particular battle being to either company's advantage.

Very good post. What is T-150 and LS-8?

[RichardJensen]

And Mein Kampf has what to do with this discussion?

It is full of unsubstantiated allegations, presented as facts.

 

JUST LIKE your little angelfire homepage doodle.

 

It's a comparison, an extreme example of the shoddy and/or deceitful workmanship found in the link that you referred to.

[Bluecon]

It is full of unsubstantiated allegations, presented as facts.

 

JUST LIKE your little angelfire homepage doodle.

 

It's a comparison, an extreme example of the shoddy and/or deceitful workmanship found in the link that you referred to.

Evan Boberg is a recognized expert in automotive circles.

Research his backgound before you accuse him of providing unsubstantiated allegations, presented as facts.

Your expertise in the auto industry is due to what?

 

Rj-- I think you are a very eloquent writer with a very limited knowledge of aoto manufacturing.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Bluecon

[RichardJensen]

Evan Boberg is a recognized expert in automotive circles.

Research his backgound before you accuse him of providing unsubstantiated allegations, presented as facts.

Your expertise in the auto industry is due to what?

 

Rj-- I think you are a very eloquent writer with a very limited knowledge of aoto manufacturing.

Regardless of what you say about him, he has not backed up any claim that Ford is paying a per unit royalty to Toyota. Until he does so, he is being far from respectable by passing such a statement off as a fact.

[DearbornDerek]

Very good post. What is T-150 and LS-8?

 

T-150 was the original name for the tundra (to close to F-150)

LS-V8 is what the Lincoln LS was badged (toyota had something LS)

[Michael Reynolds]

Rj-- I think you are a very eloquent writer with a very limited knowledge of aoto manufacturing.

 

And you do?

 

Speaking of citing sources. I had a Business Objects class last semester (I was working on my MBA at the University of Michigan - Ann Arbor), and we were tasked to write an 8 page paper on how to create and maintain proper processes. Well the chick that sat next to me was going on and on about how she found this awesome source on the web, and that's what her paper was going to be centered upon.

 

Of course she received her paper with a big red SEE ME!. Why? Well the prof looked up her source, becuase he was rather interested as to what she wrote about, but upon closer inspection it was some random webpage that someone setup and spewed whatever the hell they felt. Thanks to her we were kept 35 mins after and lectured on how we should know better not to use random web pages as a basis for research. DUH! BTW she received a nice fat F.

 

Moral: Everything on the web is not correct nor can it be trusted. Just because someone has worked in 'X' field for 'X' amount of years does not make them a trusted source. If that's the case then most of the asshats that have worked for the Big 3 for 20 years + are all knowledgeable (which we all know is not the case in most instances).

 

I like how all of a sudden it was a 'smart move' by Ford, when just a few posts above it was implied that Ford doesn't have the appropriate talent base to come up with proper engineering to pull of things such as hybrids.

[Bluecon]

And you do?

 

Speaking of citing sources. I had a Business Objects class last semester (I was working on my MBA at the University of Michigan - Ann Arbor), and we were tasked to write an 8 page paper on how to create and maintain proper processes. Well the chick that sat next to me was going on and on about how she found this awesome source on the web, and that's what her paper was going to be centered upon.

 

Of course she received her paper with a big red SEE ME!. Why? Well the prof looked up her source, becuase he was rather interested as to what she wrote about, but upon closer inspection it was some random webpage that someone setup and spewed whatever the hell they felt. Thanks to her we were kept 35 mins after and lectured on how we should know better not to use random web pages as a basis for research. DUH! BTW she received a nice fat F.

 

Moral: Everything on the web is not correct nor can it be trusted. Just because someone has worked in 'X' field for 'X' amount of years does not make them a trusted source. If that's the case then most of the asshats that have worked for the Big 3 for 20 years + are all knowledgeable (which we all know is not the case in most instances).

 

I like how all of a sudden it was a 'smart move' by Ford, when just a few posts above it was implied that Ford doesn't have the appropriate talent base to come up with proper engineering to pull of things such as hybrids.

What does this have to do with this discussion?

Are you implying Evan Boberg knows less about the auto industry than a student?

This is not a random web page.

 

And this is also untrue?

Quote-Bob Sheaves

http://www.ricardo.com/general/contacts.as...icalcenter(usa)

 

FYI- Ford did not design the hybrid system in the Mariner and Escape -Ricardo did under contract and the control of Ford-look at the patent documentation. Several Toyota control systems were used under licence to allow a fast time-to-market.

 

This does NOT diminish Ford's efforts-merely that intelligent use of the resources available necessitated outside contractor labor and efforts. BTW- go to the Ricardo Tech Center-they have an Escape on display in the lobby with highlights of the developed systems."

Edited September 7, 2006 by Bluecon

[RichardJensen]

Are you implying Evan Boberg knows less about the auto industry than a student?

This is not a random web page.

Yeah. If only there were some way of PROVING what Boberg states. If only..............

 

Until then, yeah. That is a random webpage. Boberg's credibility extends as far as his willingness to cite his statements. It extends no farther.

 

I think a fair bit of the trouble in this industry is due to people like you taking unsubstantiated statements by people like Boberg at face value, simply because he's saying what you want to hear. Demand proof. Even if it sounds good.

 

As to assistance from Ricardo, the involvement of outside contractors is a given in this industry; however, AGAIN, no documentation is provided to support the allegation that Ricardo designed all of the Ford hybrid system.

[Bluecon]

Yeah. If only there were some way of PROVING what Boberg states. If only..............

 

Until then, yeah. That is a random webpage. Boberg's credibility extends as far as his willingness to cite his statements. It extends no farther.

 

I think a fair bit of the trouble in this industry is due to people like you taking unsubstantiated statements by people like Boberg at face value, simply because he's saying what you want to hear. Demand proof. Even if it sounds good.

Guys like me are why Ford can't run the company

 

As to assistance from Ricardo, the involvement of outside contractors is a given in this industry; however, AGAIN, no documentation is provided to support the allegation that Ricardo designed all of the Ford hybrid system.

"Ricardo did under contract and the control of Ford-look at the patent documentation"

 

Did you look at that?

[RichardJensen]

"Ricardo did under contract and the control of Ford-look at the patent documentation"

 

Did you look at that?

Look. Someone wants to state that, they can furnish the links to the patent documentation. Contrary to what may seem to be the case, I don't have time to sift through the thousands of patents issued to Ford during the hybrid development project to discover which ones involved Ricardo personnel.

 

DEMAND PROOF.

 

Don't be forced to go dig it up yourself.

 

You prove your allegations of fact to me. That's YOUR responsibility, not mine.

[Bob_Sheaves]

Yeah. If only there were some way of PROVING what Boberg states. If only..............

 

Until then, yeah. That is a random webpage. Boberg's credibility extends as far as his willingness to cite his statements. It extends no farther.

 

I think a fair bit of the trouble in this industry is due to people like you taking unsubstantiated statements by people like Boberg at face value, simply because he's saying what you want to hear. Demand proof. Even if it sounds good.

 

As to assistance from Ricardo, the involvement of outside contractors is a given in this industry; however, AGAIN, no documentation is provided to support the allegation that Ricardo designed all of the Ford hybrid system.

The "documentation" you want is located at the Ricardo Tech Center. Go there and you can see it, talk to the people, and determine what you will. Now...try to accept that the "proof" you are claiming to want does not exist on the web, as it is propriatary to Ford.

 

BTW- nowhere did I claim Ricardo did "all" the work. Please at least be accurate. There is a big difference between "design" and "engineering" a program.

 

Best regards...

Edited September 7, 2006 by Bob_Sheaves

[Michael Reynolds]

What does this have to do with this discussion?

Are you implying Evan Boberg knows less about the auto industry than a student?

This is not a random web page.

 

UGH! This is why I don't even bother with the back and forth on this forum anymore, because people do not read. That story above was purely anecdotal. It has nothing to do about who knows more, if you re-read what I posted it has to do with where you obtain your information.

 

Sometimes I wonder. Oh wait let me go stick my ostrich head in the sand where it belongs. :shrug:

[RichardJensen]

The "documentation" you want is located at the Ricardo Tech Center. Go there and you can see it, talk to the people, and determine what you will. Now...try to accept that the "proof" you are claiming to want does not exist on the web, as it is propriatary to Ford.

 

Best regards...

I'm not going to the Ricardo tech center.....

 

Nor am I going to look up all Ford's patents.

 

I don't doubt that Ricardo played a key role in this. However, I also find it hard to believe that the 300+ engineers Ford has working on hybrid programs exist solely to OK Ricardo's work.

 

As to the 'proof' that Ford is paying a per unit fee to Toyota, you're right. It does not exist in any verifiable form. Therefore, it should never be alleged as fact, it should always be couched in language that reflects its speculative nature, as in "Possibly Ford is paying a royalty to Toyota for every Escape hybrid sold. This royalty would help Toyota recover development costs on the HSD system"

 

Not "Ford pays Toyota a royalty, which helps Toyota subsidize hybrid development" or whatever Boberg said.

[Bob_Sheaves]

See inline comments to specifics....

I'm not going to the Ricardo tech center.....

 

Nor am I going to look up all Ford's patents.

 

Then you obviously are not interested in verification-you just want to bitch. Sorry-accept the information or not, I am disinterested.

 

I don't doubt that Ricardo played a key role in this. However, I also find it hard to believe that the 300+ engineers Ford has working on hybrid programs exist solely to OK Ricardo's work.

 

What part of "design" and "engineering" is not understood? At Ford, they are 2 entirely different jobs, handled by different people, with different skill sets. I NEVER claimed anything about "...300+ engineers Ford has working on hybrid programs exist solely to OK Ricardo's work...". If you ARE interested, I can give you a description of these differences.

 

As to the 'proof' that Ford is paying a per unit fee to Toyota, you're right. It does not exist in any verifiable form. Therefore, it should never be alleged as fact, it should always be couched in language that reflects its speculative nature, as in "Possibly Ford is paying a royalty to Toyota for every Escape hybrid sold. This royalty would help Toyota recover development costs on the HSD system"

 

Not "Ford pays Toyota a royalty, which helps Toyota subsidize hybrid development" or whatever Boberg said.

 

I have never claimed anything any different. As far as what Evan did or did not say-read his entire book before you judge him. I know what he is...because I worked with him have have a great deal of respect for his abilities.

[RichardJensen]

It's my job to check your work?

 

What am I a college professor grading a paper?

 

You make a statement, you provide facts to support it.

 

As far as Boberg goes, like I said, I refuse to take the allegations of a guy who provides no data or independent citations to support his claim seriously. Put up or shut up. I don't care who you are, if you cannot provide independent support for your arguments, you are not credible.

 

Reputations are worthless the instant they are used as the sole authority for arguments or allegations of fact. (e.g. "I've been in this industry for almost 50 years and I know a thing or two"--Jerry Flint).

Edited September 7, 2006 by RichardJensen

[Bob_Sheaves]

It's my job to check your work?

 

What am I a college professor grading a paper?

 

You make a statement, you provide facts to support it.

 

As far as Boberg goes, like I said, I refuse to take the allegations of a guy who provides no data or independent citations to support his claim seriously. Put up or shut up. I don't care who you are, if you cannot provide independent support for your arguments, you are not credible.

 

Reputations are worthless the instant they are used as the sole authority for arguments or allegations of fact. (e.g. "I've been in this industry for almost 50 years and I know a thing or two"--Jerry Flint).

So, as a corollary, you are saying it is my job to read your mind, to know what you do and do not know and understand about this industry? I don't think so. Providing "facts" for every statement I make is not only counterproductive....it is a waste of my time. I have a tendency (perhaps rightly, perhaps wrongly) to assume the people I talk to on boards such as this, are at least as knowledgeable and experienced as I am in this field and have the enthusiasm I have. This generally doesn't fail me, as there are some quite knowledgable people out "in the world" and I do not waste time going over known data and past developments of the industry.

 

Unfortunately, bullheaded people that want to play wannabe, invariably question even the most basic statement in order to appear knowledgeable....when if fact, all they do is show those that really know, how little they DO know.

 

Best regards...

Edited September 7, 2006 by Bob_Sheaves

[RichardJensen]

So, as a corollary, you are saying it is my job to read your mind, to know what you do and do not know and understand about this industry?

Just patents. You said "look at the patents", I said, "I don't wanna".

[Michael Reynolds]

Now now ladies.

[toyboxrv]

I read an article, I believe from Detroit News, about an engineer from Ford who received an award from an engineering trade magazine for his work of the Escape hybrid system. The award wasn't given to Toyota and it wasn't given to Ricardo. I'll agree with Richard that there isn't credible evidence provided by anyone that can show Ford needed Toyota's input for their hybrid or had to go to Ricardo to show them how to do it.

[Bluecon]

Just patents. You said "look at the patents", I said, "I don't wanna".

RJ,

 

Quick change the subject to brown cows.

Or something you know something about.

[RichardJensen]

RJ,

 

Quick change the subject to brown cows.

Or something you know something about.

Look, I've used the UPSPTO's messy search interface and clumsy document display system to dig up patent documents to bolster my arguments (like the suit alleging that the 'my color' Mustang IP infringed on this MIT goof's patent), or to provide further information (as in the EPA's clean diesel through aggressive management of O2 concentration).

 

I just don't feel like trying to find out what patents Ricardo filed that were assigned to Ford, assuming that the USPTO's records would even provide such data.

 

I don't tell other people to do my leg work. Why should I do someone else's?

[Bluecon]

It's to late anyhow. Bob has already figured out you have no actual knowledge of or experience in the auto industry.

[RichardJensen]

It's to late anyhow. Bob has already figured out you have no actual knowledge of or experience in the auto industry.

Because I was the one that thought Ontario Truck was still open, right? And THAT plant was the one getting the Edge, right?

[Bluecon]

Because I was the one that thought Ontario Truck was still open, right? And THAT plant was the one getting the Edge, right?

I was just tired of correcting you.

But, if you insist.