Im pretty sure this was resolved before...

[KaliRover]

I need sources too. But it comes up from time to time, and Ive wikipedia`d it, and nothing`s come up, Ive googled it, looked on CheersandGears, GMI, AutoBlog, Leftlanenews, everything...

 

The system used in the Escape, was that Ford's? I remember hearing that it was, but can someone give me more on that? And, sources that prove this? Thanks you guys/gals.

 

-KaliRover

 

Oh, and what I'm talking about is the system used in the Ford Escape.

 

Sorry about that.

[KaliRover]

They use a system similar to Toyota's, but not the same. So there was no chance of a lawsuit, Ford licensed some of Toyota's patents.

 

Wait, how much of the system used in the Escape was developed by Ford? And how much of it was borrowed from Toyotas research/development/etc?

I read somewhere that they use similar suppliers and what not, but yea, can you, or anyone else shed a little more light on this, or show / direct me towards a source where I can find out more on this?

 

Thanks you guys.

[Bluecon]

Of course Ford never bought a Toyota hybrid and copied it. They just happened to come up with the same system out of thin air.

 

"Now how does Toyota make money with a car that they sell for half of its manufacturing cost? It’s similar to the concept of dumping which the Japanese have perfected. It creates a demand for the technology. Then the rights to this technology are sold to the likes of Ford and Nissan. Each time these automakers sell a hybrid, Toyota gets paid and they lose money. Toyota keeps its volume low, and comes out ahead in the end. Then they apply this technology to an SUV, and a $50,000 SUV is not quit such a shocker. The SUV is only slightly more expensive to manufacture, then they can sell it at a profit. So the count of the hybrid models available will probably require both my hands in the future."

 

 

http://www.angelfire.com/mech/evbo/prius.html

Edited September 5, 2006 by Bluecon

[KaliRover]

I thank both of you for the great information, I really appreciate it!

[Bluecon]

I thank both of you for the great information, I really appreciate it!

What do you think the truth is ?

[RichardJensen]

Of course Ford never bought a Toyota hybrid and copied it.

And Ford would need to license only 21 Toyota patents, independent of the 100+ they were granted, if they just copied Toyota's system?

 

Bluecon, the hybrid system is conceptually simple. Any company with an extant EV program, a decent 4-cylinder engine, and an experienced R&D team could flesh out a working hybrid, without recourse to copying the parts and mechanisms of another company.

 

Did Ford buy a JDM Prius and ship it to Dearborn for disassembly? Likely so, however, it is also likely that Ford found numerous areas for improvement, or areas where a specific process could be done differently.

 

Once again, the five-fold difference in the number of Ford patents on the Escape hybrid vs. the number of Toyota patents, suggests it to be anything but a direct copy of the Toyota system.

[ZanatWork]

SHHHHH! Facts can kill the negative nancys!

[Michael Reynolds]

Of course Ford never bought a Toyota hybrid and copied it. They just happened to come up with the same system out of thin air.

 

"Now how does Toyota make money with a car that they sell for half of its manufacturing cost? It’s similar to the concept of dumping which the Japanese have perfected. It creates a demand for the technology. Then the rights to this technology are sold to the likes of Ford and Nissan. Each time these automakers sell a hybrid, Toyota gets paid and they lose money. Toyota keeps its volume low, and comes out ahead in the end. Then they apply this technology to an SUV, and a $50,000 SUV is not quit such a shocker. The SUV is only slightly more expensive to manufacture, then they can sell it at a profit. So the count of the hybrid models available will probably require both my hands in the future."

http://www.angelfire.com/mech/evbo/prius.html

 

And there in lies the problem with the internet. Punch in a phrase or keywords into google, yahoo, or ask.com and you end up with answers some of which are true and some of which are not.

Not to discredit the person that wrote the info. above, but if all this were true I sure in the hell missed resources being cited.

 

So until DETAILED information is posted, how could one sit here and credibly summise that Ford bought most of the technology to build the Escape Hybrid from 'Yota. Ignore the fact that Ford had to go to the SAME suppliers that 'Yota uses to obtain key equipement (Sanyo for batteries and Aisin for a CVT) thus reasoning why Ford had to use a few of Toyota's patents (which btw Toyota received Diesel patents from Ford in return).

 

I'm sorry but one lousy link does not prove nor disprove how Ford engineered the Hybrid Escape/Mariner. It's fine to hate, but have correct information when doing so.

[92merc]

This is now third hand info, but a fellow motorcyclist I talk to works for Toyota. He claimed that the mechanics of the Ford system were developed by Ford. But Ford was having issues with shifting and transitions to/from gas/electric. So supposedly they bought the software and rights to Toyora software patents from Toyota to make it work "better".

 

I don't know if that's true or not. But if I were forced to take a Prius or Escape hybrid, I'll take the Escape everyday of the week and twice on Sundays! :-)

[RichardJensen]

This is now third hand info, but a fellow motorcyclist I talk to works for Toyota. He claimed that the mechanics of the Ford system were developed by Ford. But Ford was having issues with shifting and transitions to/from gas/electric. So supposedly they bought the software and rights to Toyora software patents from Toyota to make it work "better".

 

I don't know if that's true or not. But if I were forced to take a Prius or Escape hybrid, I'll take the Escape everyday of the week and twice on Sundays! :-)

Since Ford's system has been almost universally preferred to Toyota's for its handling of the electric only to gas-electric cycle, and since Ford's system comes far closer to EPA estimates than Toyota's, and since Ford's system has not had any software glitches (unlike Toyota's), and since Ford's hybrid engineer in chief told Auto News that Ford wrote their own software...... I'm going to guess that this guy's information is, uh, inaccurate.

 

The software itself may have been covered by patents which Ford licensed, in order to be able to write their own software without the threat of litigation hanging over their heads.

[igor]

^^ I Belie I heard of the software licencing myself ...

 

They did need help with cracking some issues - the mode shifting sounds close to what I heard, and tapped Toyota for solution ..

 

They did not however simply install the software and call it s a day - they found the solution, and wrote their own program based on the new knowledge.

 

Igor

[92merc]

^^ I Belie I heard of the software licencing myself ...

 

They did need help with cracking some issues - the mode shifting sounds close to what I heard, and tapped Toyota for solution ..

 

They did not however simply install the software and call it s a day - they found the solution, and wrote their own program based on the new knowledge.

 

Igor

 

Yep, that's what my buddy told me as well. I guess I should have been more clear on that part. Software is all Ford. They just took the principle from the patent and wrote their own version.

 

I do enjoy the irony that Ford was able to take something from Yoda, and make it better. In the old days, it used to be the other way around...

[Bluecon]

The article doesn't say that Ford copied the Toyota system.

It says that they pay Toyota each time they sell a hybrid.

 

Maybe thet is why they no longer plan on building 250k per year.

[ZanatWork]

The article doesn't say that Ford copied the Toyota system.

It says that they pay Toyota each time they sell a hybrid.

 

Maybe thet is why they no longer plan on building 250k per year.

 

 

The 250K per year announcement was made before hybrid sales levelled off...the total for hybrids sold this year looks to top out under that number, and that's for all makes combined.

[igor]

The article doesn't say that Ford copied the Toyota system.

It says that they pay Toyota each time they sell a hybrid.

 

Maybe thet is why they no longer plan on building 250k per year.

 

The reason Ford pays Yota for every Hybrid sold is because Yota's subsidiary is the supplier of the batteries in every Ford Hybrid.

 

This will not change in the 08 Escape, but will change in the Gen2 Hybrid in the Fusion. When the Escape Hybrid was being developed, there was no other option for supplier of a suitable battery, but since then, Ford has worked with US suppliers - independent of toyota, and the new system will use more US parts.

 

Igor

Edited September 6, 2006 by igor

[Bluecon]

The reason Ford pays Yota for every Hybrid sold is because Yota's subsidiary is the supplier of the batteries in every Ford Hybrid.

 

This will not change in the 08 Escape, but will change in the Gen2 Hybrid in the Fusion. When the Escape Hybrid was being developed, there was no other option for supplier of a suitable battery, but since then, Ford has worked with US suppliers - independent of toyota, and the new system will use more US parts.

 

Igor

They buy the tranny from the same company as Toyota.

I believe the batteries are from different suppliers.

 

The 250K per year announcement was made before hybrid sales levelled off...the total for hybrids sold this year looks to top out under that number, and that's for all makes combined.

Toyota sold about 70k of Prius's this year.

That is limited by production and not demand.

[Bob_Sheaves]

http://www.ricardo.com/general/contacts.as...icalcenter(usa)

 

FYI- Ford did not design the hybrid system in the Mariner and Escape -Ricardo did under contract and the control of Ford-look at the patent documentation. Several Toyota control systems were used under licence to allow a fast time-to-market.

 

This does NOT diminish Ford's efforts-merely that intelligent use of the resources available necessitated outside contractor labor and efforts. BTW- go to the Ricardo Tech Center-they have an Escape on display in the lobby with highlights of the developed systems.

 

Best regards...

[mikem12]

I need sources too. But it comes up from time to time, and Ive wikipedia`d it, and nothing`s come up, Ive googled it, looked on CheersandGears, GMI, AutoBlog, Leftlanenews, everything...

 

The system used in the Escape, was that Ford's? I remember hearing that it was, but can someone give me more on that? And, sources that prove this? Thanks you guys/gals.

 

-KaliRover

 

Oh, and what I'm talking about is the system used in the Ford Escape.

 

Sorry about that.

 

 

who cares, they have stolen enough technology from us.

 

 

Mike

[RichardJensen]

The article doesn't say that Ford copied the Toyota system.

It says that they pay Toyota each time they sell a hybrid.

 

Maybe thet is why they no longer plan on building 250k per year.

Actually, it does no such thing. Not all patent licenses involve per unit royalties. It may well be that Ford DOES pay Toyota per each hybrid sold, however the article quoted does not state that.

[Bluecon]

Actually, it does no such thing. Not all patent licenses involve per unit royalties. It may well be that Ford DOES pay Toyota per each hybrid sold, however the article quoted does not state that.

"Now how does Toyota make money with a car that they sell for half of its manufacturing cost? It’s similar to the concept of dumping which the Japanese have perfected. It creates a demand for the technology. Then the rights to this technology are sold to the likes of Ford and Nissan. Each time these automakers sell a hybrid, Toyota gets paid and they lose money. Toyota keeps its volume low, and comes out ahead in the end. Then they apply this technology to an SUV, and a $50,000 SUV is not quit such a shocker. The SUV is only slightly more expensive to manufacture, then they can sell it at a profit. So the count of the hybrid models available will probably require both my hands in the future."

 

 

http://www.angelfire.com/mech/evbo/prius.html

[RichardJensen]

"Now how does Toyota make money with a car that they sell for half of its manufacturing cost? It’s similar to the concept of dumping which the Japanese have perfected. It creates a demand for the technology. Then the rights to this technology are sold to the likes of Ford and Nissan. Each time these automakers sell a hybrid, Toyota gets paid and they lose money. Toyota keeps its volume low, and comes out ahead in the end. Then they apply this technology to an SUV, and a $50,000 SUV is not quit such a shocker. The SUV is only slightly more expensive to manufacture, then they can sell it at a profit. So the count of the hybrid models available will probably require both my hands in the future."

http://www.angelfire.com/mech/evbo/prius.html

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

You were referring to the article that has absolutely no cited authority whatsoever.

 

Might as well quote yourself as that guy.

[Bluecon]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

You were referring to the article that has absolutely no cited authority whatsoever.

 

Might as well quote yourself as that guy.

The man has spent his life in the auto industry.

You say you live in South Dakota.

You know more than this highly respected individual?

[RichardJensen]

The man has spent his life in the auto industry.

You say you live in South Dakota.

You know more than this highly respected individual?

I'm saying put up or shut up. This guy could be the King of East Overshoe, for all I know. HE DOESN'T CITE A SINGLE SOURCE FOR ANYTHING. That gives him ZERO credibility.

 

Worse than zero credibility. It detracts from his credibility. If he has proof, he should provide citations, if he has no proof, he should state so clearly.

 

What he 'knows' isn't at issue here, simply because what he claims to know cannot be established at all. Therefore, for talking purposes, he knows nothing at all.

[Bluecon]

I don't understand the anger. You would be a fool not to take advantage of the existing technology. Ford did a great job on the Escape hybrid.

 

"We are now working on our second and third generation of Hybrid technology -- which will be on the streets in less than 3 years. We will have 250k hybrids by 2010 CY -- we are committed to this technology and it's proliferation."

 

How true is that?"

 

Um, guys. If you would have read my post, and checked the link, you would have seen an interview with Mary Ann Wright where she states:

They exchanged licenses. That suggests no money changed hands, and no royalties are being paid..

That suggests? So you're guessing? Again?

Edited September 7, 2006 by Bluecon

[RichardJensen]

I don't understand the anger.

It's simple: You are willing to accept unsubstantiated allegations as authoratative.

 

Where's the sense in that? Why, Mein Kampf is FULL of unsubstantiated allegations. So is "The International Jew".

 

Read those books, and you'll have a nicely warped view of the world around you, all with as much evidence mustered in behalf of their arguments as your source has mustered on behalf of his.