Freeman Thomas: Can he save Ford?

[Chris D.]

And you know this how? Alan and Mark told you exactly how much it costs Ford to make one?

A read an article very recently (I believe it was an AutoConnection writer), showing that Ford made between $200-300 per car on the Mustang. Even if you assumed he was incorrect and added a few hundred to each car, when contrasting that with how much Ford (and the other domestics) make on full size trucks and SUV's (approx $10K on trucks) you see the point.

[Chris D.]

Does anyone know how much Ford makes on the CD3 cars?

Edited January 20, 2007 by Chris D.

[Edstock]

"I thought of the A8 profile, the cleanness of its sheetmetal and lenght. Great point!"

 

Uh, you're entitled to your opinion, but the A8 and the Interceptor have totally different proportions, rooflines, everything, except length.

 

"Gestalt", while German in origin, is not so much a sign of stubborn VW/AUDI design cues persisting in the Interceptor, as a term from psychiatry, roughly meaning "mind-image", formed by the mind upon seeing an object for the first time. In common-sense, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression".

 

That's why the 3-bar Fusion grille, and the MK Z grille: love 'em or hate 'em, you know you're not looking at a Toyota or a Honda. Gestalt.

[pcsario]

1,000 pesos per car. I read an article somewhere that said that.

Are you sure that wasn't stated in dollars?

 

1,000 MXP = ~90 USD

 

Sorry fellas, time to start using the same kind of hard plastics VW and even Ford are using (F150)

Edited January 20, 2007 by pcsario

[RichardJensen]

Back on topic guys.

 

You want to speculate on how much Ford makes per car, start a thread titled "Stuff nobody here knows, but which we can argue about endlessly".

[Roadrunner]

I think his greater point is this:

 

Consumers do not trust the Ford brand. Even if JD Power and Consumer Reports came out tomorrow and said Ford made the most reliable and dependable vehicles on the road, people would still not trust Ford. A car like the Fusion, however, is proving that Ford can, in fact, compete in quality. But, if the Fusion were not polarizing or eye-catching, would it have sold 140,000+ units last year. If there was no EMOTIONAL reason to buy the car, would people still buy it? The answer is probably no. If you want a reliable appliance with adequate space, power, dynamics and style, then you buy a Camry or Accord. Why? Because they have proven track records (even if new Camrys are having some larger than normal teething issues).

 

<snip>

 

Ahhhh.... excellent point.

 

I just worry that while products like the Fusion hit the sweet spot with design and reliability (personal bias: I own one) and the 500 has reliability up the wazoo, I worry that more emphasis will be put on image and Ford's reliability will fall behind.

[RichardJensen]

"Gestalt", while German in origin, is not so much a sign of stubborn VW/AUDI design cues persisting in the Interceptor, as a term from psychiatry, roughly meaning "mind-image", formed by the mind upon seeing an object for the first time.

Gestalt, for designers and artists, is related more to the relationship of the work to its environment, its viewers, and itself.

 

Gestalt psychology is concerned with the mind's ability to perceive intact wholes, instead of disparate parts (you see your living room, not four walls, a TV, couch, etc.). Gestalt psychology also delves into the process of focusing attention. We may be exceptionally conscious of the spot on our shirt, but others around us do not notice it. Why?

 

Gestalt psychology is especially of interest today, as it is fundamentally opposed to the Cartesian approach to consciousness, which suggests that we assemble our world out of the things in it. Thus far the only approach to AI and computer data acquisition is through Cartesian construction of sensible wholes from individual parts.

 

As there is greater and greater interest in making information make sense, the fundamental incompatibility of computational data structure and our own way of understanding the world presents a seemingly impossible problem. The best examples of this are attempts to write translation programs, and the pursuit of the semantic web.

 

As this relates to design, disciples of the Gestalt school are concerned with establishing designs that either harmonize well, or contain a creative chaos.

 

Repetition of shapes and curves, proportional placement of design elements, and careful attention to small details are necessary for closed Gestalt designs such as the Mustang.

 

For open Gestalt designs, such as the Lamborghini Countach, proportion becomes even more important, as does the intersection points, outside the vehicle, of lines originating on the vehicle.

 

On the Countach, the essential wedge shape is further enhanced by character lines and creases that intersect well in front of, and below, the vehicle, as well as behind and above. The end result is a design that looks even more like what it actually is: An exciting door-stop of a car.

[Roadrunner]

Two people close to me really enjoy their Five Hundreds, and as a tall guy, I can tell you that I find 'em extremely comfortable. They also have a ride/handling compromise that's miles better than any Ford sedan save the newer CD3s...something that was stated clearly and often in road tests but gets ignored by people bent on hating what is actually a very good car.

 

I believe that the people who buy a D3 consider them to be great cars for what fits them. It's just that -- and this is where the D3 hater club comes in -- they aren't selling very well.

 

I would sum up the D3 buyer as: 1) not desiring a performance car, 2) do want a spacious car that can haul plenty, and 3) want a reliable, quality vehicle (an appliance).

 

With that in mind, that pulls a lot of people from the buying pool, because the people who want #1 go elsewhere, those who want #2 might go into an SUV or CUV and those who want #3 are jaded into buying a Toyota or, believe it, a Buick.

[Roadrunner]

Gestalt, for designers and artists, is related more to the relationship of the work to its environment, its viewers, and itself.

 

(...)

 

Gestalt psychology is especially of interest today, as it is fundamentally opposed to the Cartesian approach to consciousness, which suggests that we assemble our world out of the things in it. Thus far the only approach to AI and computer data acquisition is through Cartesian construction of sensible wholes from individual parts.

 

(...)

 

Repetition of shapes and curves, proportional placement of design elements, and careful attention to small details are necessary for closed Gestalt designs such as the Mustang.

 

For open Gestalt designs, such as the Lamborghini Countach, proportion becomes even more important, as does the intersection points, outside the vehicle, of lines originating on the vehicle.

 

On the Countach, the essential wedge shape is further enhanced by character lines and creases that intersect well in front of, and below, the vehicle, as well as behind and above. The end result is a design that looks even more like what it actually is: An exciting door-stop of a car.

 

1) What's a closed Gestalt image (as seen on the Mustang) versus a counterpart (as seen elsewhere?)

Is it: Law of Closure - Our mind adds missing elements to complete a figure. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology )

 

2) If so, then what are we mentally adding when we see the '05-current Mustang ?

[RichardJensen]

1) What's a closed Gestalt image (as seen on the Mustang) versus a counterpart (as seen elsewhere?)

Is it: Law of Closure - Our mind adds missing elements to complete a figure. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology )

 

2) If so, then what are we mentally adding when we see the '05-current Mustang ?

 

The 'law of closure' comes into play in many areas on the Mustang. The blue curves all have the same radius, the green lines are parallels. The red rectangles show proportion. Proportion is not related to the law of closure, but is related to the 'gestalt' of cars in general.

 

Also, Gestalt design places a high priority on relating all design elements to other design elements, because the whole is perceived before the individual parts are.

Edited January 21, 2007 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

http://blueovalblogs.com/blogs/?p=76

[Roadrunner]

 

Looking at this side profile of the A6 shows how closely it looks to the Five Hundred -- almost spot-on.

 

I suspect that the problem with the 500 more and more are the bug-eyes: it looks much sharper with a square headlight arrangement.

[bravestar]

 

Looking at this side profile of the A6 shows how closely it looks to the Five Hundred -- almost spot-on.

 

I suspect that the problem with the 500 more and more are the bug-eyes: it looks much sharper with a square headlight arrangement.

 

You are right! It is those darn bug eyed headlights! When you look at that car that is the first thing that looks ugly and unrefined! Then you start to look for more things that don't seem right which leads you to the cheap door panels when you open the door. And then you step on the gas and it immediately shifts and dogs out into second gear which makes a underperforming engine even taxed more. Older people don't mind things like this but if you are trying to attract an import buyer, you better impress.

 

Looks like on the updated 2008 they have addressed all of these issues and with a little advertising this car will sell in numbers that they anticipated. The quality reputation of the Five Hundred is great and that will help to sell it also if Ford doesn't do anything to negatively effect it (Tundra...recall city).

[J-150]

I would sum up the D3 buyer as: 1) not desiring a performance car, 2) do want a spacious car that can haul plenty, and 3) want a reliable, quality vehicle (an appliance).

 

With that in mind, that pulls a lot of people from the buying pool, because the people who want #1 go elsewhere, those who want #2 might go into an SUV or CUV and those who want #3 are jaded into buying a Toyota or, believe it, a Buick.

 

 

that applicance buyer is the same that makes up most of the mid-size to full size unit volume)

[Roadrunner]

Yes but the appliance buyer is sapped up into the "reliable as a rock" treacle from Toyota and Honda.

 

It was rightfully so back in the day, but today it appears that vehicles like the Malibu, Fusion and 500 (nothing from DCX) are right up there in reliability.