mustang_sallad

Tesla was brought up in this discussion as an example of how EVs and hybrids can offer more than just basic transportation. The fact that we're discussing whether or not Tesla will ultimately be successful more than 5 years after a bunch of us had already set very pessimistic expectations shows that, regardless of Musk's adventure, the technology has plenty of potential. If a startup (admittedly a very well-funded startup) can accomplish as much as they have, imagine what established automakers will accomplish once they start applying even a fraction of the focus as Tesla has on this segment. We're starting to see signs of that shift of focus with a number of major players (VW, BMW, GM) and now, I'm guessing 3 of the top 5 fastest cars in the world are either hybrids or plug-in hybrids, with more on the way. All that to say, Ford should make sure they don't get left behind in this segment. I was disappointed that they didn't have a single electrified powertrain to show off at Detroit, and this 200-mile EV rumour is one of a very few hints we've heard about Ford's plans, and now this one has been pretty flat out denied by Ford. I've always been a Ford fan above all else, but it's been frustrating to look elsewhere in the industry to get excited about new products for some time now. If I'm back in the market for a car in the next couple years as I expect, it's looking very unlikely that it'll be another Ford at this point.

That's a bit strong. December was the all-time highest month for plug-in vehicle sales in the US, at almost 13,000, 29% higher than Dec 2013. January was up 6%, and Feb was down 6%. Gas prices are likely having an impact, but some also point to the fact that two of the biggest players - the Volt and the Leaf - are both long in the tooth and in line for updates over the next year or two, with the Volt already having been unveiled. Meanwhile, a growing number of models are being added to the mix, with over 20 plug-in models available in the US now. On top of that, PEV sales in Europe are starting to take off, easily surpassing the US market in January, with over 9500 sales. I really hope Ford sees where this is going and doesn't fall too far behind the curve. I don't necessarily think that a pure EV with 200 mile range is necessarily the best option, and certainly isn't the only option, but I hope they're at least readying some significant upgrades to their current crop of PHEVs.

Oh please... This thing was improved significantly in a number of ways. New engine, giving increased performance and efficiency, better NVH. New battery, with significant increase in EV range and increased interior space. Completely new sheet metal. How is that a "slight refresh"?

That's why I said "Plug in Vehicles" - PHEVs make more sense for some people, pure BEVs make more sense for other people. But they both offer similar benefits, and involve a similar rethinking of how you fuel your vehicle. I would personally buy a PHEV, but the most recent numbers in the US actually show more demand for BEVs than PHEVs. Either way - my point is that a 200 mile EV at 37,500 (lets throw away the incentive for sake of discussion) would be a significant improvement over what's currently on the market, and should sway more buyers than the 3000 or so per month we're seeing with the most popular current plug-in models.

Sure, lets argue based on anecdotal evidence regarding what people are and aren't interested in driving. Meanwhile, we can look at actual numbers. US Plug-in vehicle sales: 2012: 52,000 2013: 97,500 2014: 120,000 For comparison's sake: Lincoln sales, 2014: 95,000 If the plug-in market is as big as it is now and growing as fast as it is now with the products that are currently available, one would imagine that if GM delivers on the Bolt (and if their competitors are driven to keep up), many more people will be deciding that it makes sense to get into a plug-in vehicle. It's really too bad that we have no word from Ford about what they're up to in this segment.

The point remains that the plug-in market increased by about 30% last year compared to 2013 and is currently sitting at about 120,000 cars per year, and this is GM's announcement of a future product that would leap frog everything that's currently on the market. Even if the federal subsidies were to disappear, its safe to say this leap frogging would be enough to meet the sales numbers we're currently seeing.

The Leaf is currently selling at 3000+ a month, and you think that more than doubling the range for the same price is going to have less appeal? I think your point still remains, but it's safe to assume that GM would be banking on sales in the thousands.

Ford would have their head in the sand if they came out with a Ford GT-level halo car that didn't feature some kind of powertrain electrification. There, i said it!

I've always wondered the same thing. They seem so much more complicated. I've got rear drums on my focus, i'm considering painting them red to make me feel better about them.

The classic GM fishbowl bus (think Speed...) ran on a two-stroke diesel. I'll never forget the sound of those buses... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_New_Look_bus

Are you saying that the government shouldn't support a transition to electrified transportation anymore than it supports car dealerships?

So a thing can't exist because other things like it don't currently exist? These guys have already accomplished a lot more than any other auto startup over the past 50+ years.

"now looking at lower cost models"? The first time I heard mention of what is now called Model 3 was in 2008. This was their plan from the beginning. Start out at the high end of the market, build up a reputation while driving down costs and move down market.

It'll come when Model 3 hits the road, as Elon Musk had predicted back in 2008. They don't say things like that these days for obvious reasons but I've always believed it. Meanwhile, the ability to shift resources to Model 3 development is increasing as their expenses to support Model S (including growth of stores and charging network) while their sales continue to grow.

and i do think they'll continue to be independent - it's too late to buy them up at this stage because they're already valued as if they've made it to Gen 3 (which I've just argued is actually a logical conclusion).

About two years ago, i used to say "if they get to Gen 3 car..." - I've stopped saying that now. They'll get there, they have enough momentum now. My biggest concern was what would happen if early customers started having major issues with their batteries 5+ years down the road. Now they've just announced that Tesla Roadster owners can upgrade to the latest batteries, giving them 400 miles of range. They haven't said how much that would cost, but for anyone considering an electric car now, it demonstrates the nation that, when you start looking at needing a battery replacement in 8-10 years, you can benefit from all of the energy density and cost improvements that will have been made by then. No early adopter battery fiasco + free to use cross-country (cross-continent in Europe) charging network means they will continue to sell as many cars as they can make. And of course, once Model 3 hits the market, they'll have such a huge audience of eager buyers who are suddenly able to afford something they've been lusting after for years.

From the comments under that update: Zach Bowman · Top Commenter · Web Editor at Road & Track Magazine I'm cooking up a big update. Expect to see more soon. Reply · Like · 2 · March 20 at 3:40pm

A drastically smaller battery for the Volt makes no sense, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market for a PHEV that's $4K cheaper than both the Volt AND the Fusion Energi with a slightly smaller battery. Split the difference between those two (40 and 21) - 32 miles would be perfect for me, i'd still be keeping the engine off 90% of the time on my own commute.

I'm also hoping that there next gen Volt will see a lot of improvement in gas-mode fuel economy, but early reports on the i3's performance in gas mode suggests that maybe there isn't that much room to improve. You can get it with a range extender, and it really is a series hybrid without an * as we learned with the Volt - no mechanical connection from the engine to the wheels at all (unless they also have a surprise in store). And it's also a tiny little 600cc motorcycle engine - sized closer to a vehicle's average power requirements, as opposed to the Volt's engine which is big enough to handle at least some heavy acceleration and hill climbing once the battery's empty. One early test suggests the i3's engine may be even LESS efficient than the Volt: http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-road-test-yields-34-mpg-plus-noise-levels-rex-operation-video/ But lets wait till we hear some official numbers from testing on a controlled drive cycle so that we're comparing apples to apples. At the end of the day, the point of both these vehicles is that you spend the majority of your time in electric mode (even more so with the i3). The Volt I drive at work has spent over 75% of its miles with the engine off after about 20,000 miles. If we had a C-Max energi instead, that percentage would go down, but the fuel economy when the engine is off would improve. It's up to the customer to look at their typical driving patterns and figure out which is best for them, but I think its fair to say that the compromise in gas-mode mpg can be worth it's really just your safety net for driving electric most of the time.

You make good points about the fuel economy once the battery's empty. I've spent a lot of time in both the Volt and the C-Max and Fusion energi, and I was pleasantly surprised that the Ford plug-ins give you very close to full performance in electric mode. But there's still a really big gap between the Volt's 40-mile range and the 21-mile range on the Energi products. If GM can put out a version of the Volt with a smaller battery, 5 seats, 30 mile range, ~40mpg performance in gas mode for the price of the C-Max energi or potentially even lower, I would definitely choose it over any current Ford. That said, I'll be really curious to see the rumoured Focus Energi, which may be out around the same time. Hopefully by then, Ford will have put in the effort to improve the packaging on their plug in vehicles. The Volt has a very usable space under the hatch, whereas the C-Max Energi and Focus Electric are made really awkward for large items by the hump, and the Fusion Energi's trunk is a total deal breaker for me.

lol! Richard, your ability to sniff out Canadians is actually a little creepy... I post here like once a month!

Money losers? Why are all the taxi companies buying hybrids then? Depending on the usage profile, hybrids and EVs can save tons of money in the long run if you look at total cost of ownership.

Just ask yourself: how many vehicle fires have you seen? I've been first on scene for one, and I've passed by at least two that I can think of, one as recently as 2 months ago, and a colleague of mine had his car catch on fire while parked once. Cars are complicated, we have 100s of millions of them driving around all day long, things go wrong. Not that it's not a serious problem, and new cars catching on fire without being in an accident is probably the least excusable, but I did find it strange that this one caught so much attention all of a sudden.

Sweet car, but stupid name. They already pulled this move with the 6 series though. And Audi more or less did the same to their even/odd number convention with the A7. But I guess Audi didn't have much of a convention to begin with, whereas BMW just finished explaining why they were creating the 4-series.

Top speed is okay, but acceleration on the Energi is pretty limited - fine for entering a highway in normal circumstances, but not if you're trying to merge in quickly or pass. Definitely not the case with the Volt. I've tried them back to back on the exact same route.