The Juggernaut Keeps Rolling (Toyota)

[foxrun]

What coming conflict? There already is conflict. Just as there would be conflict between competing democratic countries with similar appetites for raw materials.

 

...

Right, you just think because China has not had any militaristic foriegn policy in the resent past that they will not pursue such behavior in the future, and I do.

 

Am I right?

[RichardJensen]

Right, you just think because China has not had any militaristic foriegn policy in the resent past that they will not pursue such behavior in the future, and I do.

 

Am I right?

Any belligerence from China will be a last, not a first, response to perceived threats.

 

...

[foxrun]

Any belligerence from China will be a last, not a first, response to perceived threats.

 

...

 

Yes that does seem like the logical conclusion if you take into consideration China's resent past. The problem is that general human history concludes other wise. China sits in a precarious position because it is emboldened by success. It will be hard for China not to think it is on the "right path" and therefore it must protect its vital interests. Once China feels confident enough it will challenge the U.S.'s position for the top.

 

There used to be a theory out there that China would be allowed to swallow up Hong Kong but that the city was just too large in terms of commerce and it would be the first stepping stone to democratizing China. Shenzhen and Guangzhou are steps away from Hong Kong and in terms of commerce are out pacing it by leaps and bounds leaving no room for democracies influences.

[bec5150]

I dont' worry about economic and manufacturing so much, but I do worry about the possiblity of WWIII. If that were to happen, who's going to make the weapons, uniforms, etc? Honda? Toyota?

[one2gamble]

the economic and manufacturing aspect is what you should be worried about

[silvrsvt]

I dont' worry about economic and manufacturing so much, but I do worry about the possiblity of WWIII. If that were to happen, who's going to make the weapons, uniforms, etc? Honda? Toyota?

 

 

If there ever is a WWIII, it will not be fought in the same way as WW2 was. All modern wars are come as you are type affairs and if it lasts longer then 6 months at WW2 type combat intestinsty levels, both countries would be bankrupt or pile of nuclear ashes.

 

The US manufacturing base for military equipment is protected and we dont have to worry about Transplants building war material.

[foxrun]

I dont' worry about economic and manufacturing so much, but I do worry about the possiblity of WWIII. If that were to happen, who's going to make the weapons, uniforms, etc? Honda? Toyota?

 

 

I dont' worry about economic and manufacturing so much, but I do worry about the possiblity of WWIII. If that were to happen, who's going to make the weapons, uniforms, etc? Honda? Toyota?

yes

[Bluecon]

I thought the cold war was WWIII

 

Foxrun here is a interesting story about slavery in Canada

 

 

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/history/...0_120545_120545

Edited February 4, 2006 by Bluecon

[RichardJensen]

Yes that does seem like the logical conclusion if you take into consideration China's resent past. The problem is that general human history concludes other wise. China sits in a precarious position because it is emboldened by success.

Okay, what is China going to invade? You seem to think Chinese belligerence a foregone conclusion, well tell me, who are they going to invade and why?

 

I mean China has to have some sort of REASON for acting with belligerence, so what reason would that be?

 

Or do you think they're just going to start sending troops to "stabilize" trouble spots?

 

...

[foxrun]

Okay, what is China going to invade? You seem to think Chinese belligerence a foregone conclusion, well tell me, who are they going to invade and why?

 

I mean China has to have some sort of REASON for acting with belligerence, so what reason would that be?

 

Or do you think they're just going to start sending troops to "stabilize" trouble spots?

 

...

 

Your kidding right. You think it could be possible to guess how a major conflict between the U.S. and China will shake out?

 

The point is that all nations that build thier societies need resources and when they become short in supply they need to take action or they take on the risk of internal strife. China is no different. The resources of the world are being press upon and the best indicator is that prices of commodities are rising across the board.

 

The thing with the U.S. is that it is appeasing the leadership of China by doing business with them. The Chinese leadership is emboldened by this because not only does it increase thier treasury but it proves thier ideas of America's blind obedience to its own greed. China accepts only the idea of increasing its position of power on the world stage by implimenting capitalistic methods. At every step it has thoroughly reject anything that undermines its leaderships position.

[Bluecon]

Your kidding right. You think it could be possible to guess how a major conflict between the U.S. and China will shake out?

 

The point is that all nations that build thier societies need resources and when they become short in supply they need to take action or they take on the risk of internal strife. China is no different. The resources of the world are being press upon and the best indicator is that prices of commodities are rising across the board.

 

The thing with the U.S. is that it is appeasing the leadership of China by doing business with them. The Chinese leadership is emboldened by this because not only does it increase thier treasury but it proves thier ideas of America's blind obedience to its own greed. China accepts only the idea of increasing its position of power on the world stage by implimenting capitalistic methods. At every step it has thoroughly reject anything that undermines its leaderships position.

Of course Democratic Japan despite its' lack resouces has not taken action or had internal strife.

 

In the 80's Japan was thought to be taking over the world. It didn't happen. Same thing will happen with China. Although in a different way. The people will rebel and the government will bend. Eventually democracy will take over. Nixon will be proven right.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Bluecon

[foxrun]

Of course Democratic Japan despite its' lack resouces has not taken action or had internal strife.

 

In the 80's Japan was thought to be taking over the world. It didn't happen. Same thing will happen with China. Although in a different way. The people will rebel and the government will bend. Eventually democracy will take over. Nixon will be proven right.

 

Nixon, geezzzz your really reaching there.

 

Japan taking over the world? WOW your retarded. They have no military, or at least anything that could be offensive. They have this funny little thing called a constitution that was written for them by a U.S. general that forbides any offensive capabilities. :blink: Does China have anything like that? :lol:

[RichardJensen]

Your kidding right. You think it could be possible to guess how a major conflict between the U.S. and China will shake out?

Isn't that a little disingenuous on your part? You insist that there will be armed conflict between the U.S. and China, but claim it is impossible to guess how the armed conflict will take place (what will provoke it, where it wil take place, who will win, etc.) If it is impossible to guess those things, how is it possible to state for a certainty that armed conflict will take place?

 

If you can state with absolute certainty that armed conflict will take place, then why are you unable to state with anything even approaching certainty where, when, or how such a conflict will take place?

 

Is there so sharp a dividing line between what you are certain about (armed conflct) and what you consider impossible to guess (the shape of that conflict)?

 

For me it is only clear that there is, and that there will continue to be, conflict between China and other mature and maturing economies over resources, including the U.S. I will provide any of a variety of future outcomes for that conflict, but I won't say that any one is certain.

 

Unlike you, I don't consider armed conflict a certainty precisely because it IS impossible to predict where/when/how it will take place. If those things are not certain, the very conflict itself is not certain.

 

...

[01FOCI]

Ok, so I missed the whole 11 pages of conversation but this whole china ww3 thing is rather interesting. Its my belief that we are fueling our own future conflict w/ china. Officially the chineses are all smiles and fortune cookies but due to there buildup of missile systems on the coast line with Taiwain, various "outbursts" from there military leaders wanting to destroy America (read†The China Threat") its only a matter of time till we have another Russian style cold war with china, except this time due to free market trade they have unlimited buildup capabilities. I don't believe the communists running china have peaceful ambitions in the long term. I also do not believe that Nixon’s beliefs will come true and ultimately china will be the next USSR. Our only good defense is a good offense. So keep those missile silos in the mid-west and keep those SSBN submarines out to sea… One advantage we have right now is a blue water fleet, china as of yet does not posses this capability and even thought they “might†be able to nuke a few cities they know we have enough ICBMS with thermo nuclear war-heads to vaporize every square inch of china. But thanks to Clinton and Motorola there missiles have improved guidance systems and the “loss†off missile data from Las Alamos our superiority is temporary at best.

[foxrun]

Isn't that a little disingenuous on your part? You insist that there will be armed conflict between the U.S. and China, but claim it is impossible to guess how the armed conflict will take place (what will provoke it, where it wil take place, who will win, etc.) If it is impossible to guess those things, how is it possible to state for a certainty that armed conflict will take place?

 

If you can state with absolute certainty that armed conflict will take place, then why are you unable to state with anything even approaching certainty where, when, or how such a conflict will take place?

 

Is there so sharp a dividing line between what you are certain about (armed conflct) and what you consider impossible to guess (the shape of that conflict)?

 

For me it is only clear that there is, and that there will continue to be, conflict between China and other mature and maturing economies over resources, including the U.S. I will provide any of a variety of future outcomes for that conflict, but I won't say that any one is certain.

 

Unlike you, I don't consider armed conflict a certainty precisely because it IS impossible to predict where/when/how it will take place. If those things are not certain, the very conflict itself is not certain.

 

...

 

 

Richard, do you believe evolution will happen? and if you do how? Which species will survive? Which will come into conflict with which and why? Will pollution hasten our stay on this planet and which of the millions billions of species will evole to dominate? I believe all these things will happen, I'm just not stupid enough to try to predcit the how's why's and when's.

 

Have you seen the movie Two for the Money? It is about a guy who joins a gambling phone in advice company, lets say. Well in one scene the main charecter after first predicting a perfect week goes 1 of 14 the next week and then continues to pick poorly, he goes on to explain how all he needs to do is "study" and will eventually "figure it out". What happens next is that this guy continues to be wrong again and again, he eventually has a good week but he remained mostly wrong. Seeing how geopolitics is obviously more complicated then football and seeing that only the house can win in football betting, I will refrain from letting you become the house in this conversation. :lol:

 

Conflict is a certainty because human history dictates that it is. The Chinese government is not the Mickey Mouse club they are building arms and they are capable of advancing those arms to a very high technical level. You do know that they are planning to go to the moon and already have a very active space program. Putting a government that obviously has little regard for human rights and no intention of stepping aside together with a strong military, plus the self rightousness of a successful economy, will likely end badly. B)

Edited February 4, 2006 by foxrun

[foxrun]

So you give up then Richard? is that it? wow that was easy.

[RichardJensen]

So you give up then Richard? is that it? wow that was easy.

Yeah, whatever, I give up. I'm tired of the whole subject. It's not like I have nothing better to do than speculate about the aims and intents of Chinese militarism. You know my opinion on the subject, so, like I said, whatever.

 

...

[foxrun]

Yeah, whatever, I give up. I'm tired of the whole subject. It's not like I have nothing better to do than speculate about the aims and intents of Chinese militarism. You know my opinion on the subject, so, like I said, whatever.

 

...

Say it Richard. Who is the man? :D

[Bluecon]

Nixon, geezzzz your really reaching there.

 

Japan taking over the world? WOW your retarded. They have no military, or at least anything that could be offensive. They have this funny little thing called a constitution that was written for them by a U.S. general that forbides any offensive capabilities. :blink: Does China have anything like that? :lol:

China is much less of a problem than these nutbars in Iran building a nuclear bomb. Muslim terrorist are a much greater danger than China. A largely uneducated rapidly growing population of radicals with the end of western civilization as their goal, with a nuclear bomb. That's what we need. Thank you Russia for supplying them with the bomb and Europe/UN for controlling them.

 

China has no reason to start a war. Our industry is a soft target. You can't pay people about $70/hr and recieve very little work in return and hope to defeat Toyota/Honda/Hyundai and the upcoming Chinese automobiles. If we want to defeat China we need to fight back.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Bluecon

[foxrun]

China is much less of a problem than these nutbars in Iran building a nuclear bomb. Muslim terrorist are a much greater danger than China. A largely uneducated rapidly growing population of radicals with the end of western civilization as their goal, with a nuclear bomb. That's what we need. Thank you Russia for supplying them with the bomb and Europe/UN for controlling them.

 

China has no reason to start a war. Our industry is a soft target. You can't pay people about $70/hr and recieve very little work in return and hope to defeat Toyota/Honda/Hyundai and the upcoming Chinese automobiles. If we want to defeat China we need to fight back.

 

 

And the Chinese leadership doesn't want an end to western civilization? China less of a problem? Iran might have a radical outlook on the world but thier cards are all faced upword and its not like thier economy will dominate anything other than the Rabba convenience market. In other words although clearly a problem, Iran is a manageable problem.

 

The Chinese are set to be the largest economic power in the world well before 2050, they have no intention of reliquishing power to thier people or having anything that remotely looks like a democratic forum. They are consistently curtailing Hong Kong's democratic institutions and persue thier agenda of taking Taiwan back. Oh one other little tid bit, North Korea, do you know how North Korea survives? Let me give you a hint its not thier leaders organizational skills.

 

One more point that you are too stupid to know. It was the U.S that was the real source of the Iranian nuclear program. The Pakistani's got thier program from the U.S. and the "father" of their nuclear program, Abd al-Qadir Khan, who has confessed to giving out secrets to Iran, North Korea, Libya. This is actually common knowledge for people that can read. :blink:

[Bluecon]

And the Chinese leadership doesn't want an end to western civilization? China less of a problem? Iran might have a radical outlook on the world but thier cards are all faced upword and its not like thier economy will dominate anything other than the Rabba convenience market. In other words although clearly a problem, Iran is a manageable problem.

 

The Chinese are set to be the largest economic power in the world well before 2050, they have no intention of reliquishing power to thier people or having anything that remotely looks like a democratic forum. They are consistently curtailing Hong Kong's democratic institutions and persue thier agenda of taking Taiwan back. Oh one other little tid bit, North Korea, do you know how North Korea survives? Let me give you a hint its not thier leaders organizational skills.

 

One more point that you are too stupid to know. It was the U.S that was the real source of the Iranian nuclear program. The Pakistani's got thier program from the U.S. and the "father" of their nuclear program, Abd al-Qadir Khan, who has confessed to giving out secrets to Iran, North Korea, Libya. This is actually common knowledge for people that can read. :blink:

Iran is not an easily manageable problem. If they cut off their oil supply it will be a huge disruption in the world economy. And wouldn't these madmen just love to hit the USA with any sort of atomic bomb? See what that does to the world economy. These are not rational people. They strap bombs on their children and send them to murder innocent men, women and children. That is whacko. Then they riot about a cartoon? Definately best they do not have a nuclear bomb.

 

At this point China is not comparable to North Korea. You can predict the future? You know what the world will be like in 2050? Well go back to the 1970s' and 1980s' and you will see that a lot of people were predicting the end of the USA and the dominance of Japan and Europe. Even the great Jimmy Carter was telling the American people to expect a reduction in their standard of living. Ronald Reagan disagreed and the rest is history.

 

Actually the Russians are supplying the means by which the Iranians will make an atom bomb. You can go back in ancient history but the Europeans/UN took on the responsibility of controlling the Iranians and as usual the Europeans/UN have made a mess of it.

 

The fact that Pakistan is helping radical dictatorships to build bombs is proof you do not want muslim countries to have the technology to build an atom bomb.

[foxrun]

Iran is not an easily manageable problem. If they cut off their oil supply it will be a huge disruption in the world economy. And wouldn't these madmen just love to hit the USA with any sort of atomic bomb? See what that does to the world economy. These are not rational people. They strap bombs on their children and send them to murder innocent men, women and children. That is whacko. Then they riot about a cartoon? Definately best they do not have a nuclear bomb.

 

At this point China is not comparable to North Korea. You can predict the future? You know what the world will be like in 2050? Well go back to the 1970s' and 1980s' and you will see that a lot of people were predicting the end of the USA and the dominance of Japan and Europe. Even the great Jimmy Carter was telling the American people to expect a reduction in their standard of living. Ronald Reagan disagreed and the rest is history.

 

Actually the Russians are supplying the means by which the Iranians will make an atom bomb. You can go back in ancient history but the Europeans/UN took on the responsibility of controlling the Iranians and as usual the Europeans/UN have made a mess of it.

 

The fact that Pakistan is helping radical dictatorships to build bombs is proof you do not want muslim countries to have the technology to build an atom bomb.

 

 

First off I never said Iran was "easily manageable, but they are manageable. Oil prices going up? So what less driving and we would get are asses into gear finally becoming once again what N.A. are best at, inventing a whole new idea.

 

Will China become economically more powerfull then the U.S.? Don't ask me just read ANYTHING about the economic future. Was Carter right? Sure was, didn't you read the report on "The War on the Middle Class" where it was determined the average person makes 20% less then in the 70's. All Reagan did was make Americans more comfortable with debt. To this day Americans just put more on thier debt load when they want MORE. The only thing holding up todays economy is the realestate bubble.

 

And as for your Russian escape goat, you are just wrong. Iran has always been Americas baby, ya sure there have been opportunists from different parts of the world but the situation there has always been seen as a result of Americas mistakes, starting with the Shah right up to todays nuclear problem. It was the blind support of the Shah that lead to Ayatollah Kohmeni and his "revolution" and it was the U.S. that let Isreal get a "bomb" when the middle east was "bomb" free, which lead others to do desperate things to get one too.

Plus don't make me remind you what Reagan did to guarantee the freedom of hostages and then what he did with that money(Iran>Contra).

[kevinb120]

I am less concerned about "money going back to Japan" than the type of jobs Toyota is creating here. Most of these jobs are manufacturing jobs. Nothing wrong with manufacturing jobs but I do not want the US auto industry to be limited to merely assembling things. I would like a lot of the design and engineering to be done here as well - and that is where I think Toyota is not doing much. Yes they have several engineering and design centers throughout the US but the vast majority of their R&D gets done in Japan. If as much engineering is done here as manufacturing then perhaps, I can consider them an American company - but not until then.

 

- HCE

 

 

The really scary part to me is Toyota having Americans design and engineer Japanese cars that more American's will buy. The Avalon is one of those vehicles(the new 'nice' one and not the marshmallow). Its almost Orwelian. Most of the Mazdas that brought them really into the game were done in America, although Ford now owns controlling interest in them, if that's a relief I dont know. But where do you think the Miata came from?

[Bluecon]

First off I never said Iran was "easily manageable, but they are manageable. Oil prices going up? So what less driving and we would get are asses into gear finally becoming once again what N.A. are best at, inventing a whole new idea.

 

Will China become economically more powerfull then the U.S.? Don't ask me just read ANYTHING about the economic future. Was Carter right? Sure was, didn't you read the report on "The War on the Middle Class" where it was determined the average person makes 20% less then in the 70's. All Reagan did was make Americans more comfortable with debt. To this day Americans just put more on thier debt load when they want MORE. The only thing holding up todays economy is the realestate bubble.

 

And as for your Russian escape goat, you are just wrong. Iran has always been Americas baby, ya sure there have been opportunists from different parts of the world but the situation there has always been seen as a result of Americas mistakes, starting with the Shah right up to todays nuclear problem. It was the blind support of the Shah that lead to Ayatollah Kohmeni and his "revolution" and it was the U.S. that let Isreal get a "bomb" when the middle east was "bomb" free, which lead others to do desperate things to get one too.

Plus don't make me remind you what Reagan did to guarantee the freedom of hostages and then what he did with that money(Iran>Contra).

Oil prices up, small cars in, Foxrun out. Like they say --it is a recession when your neighbour loses his job and a depression when you lose yours.

 

My crystal ball is not working today. however I think the internal threats from socialists such as yourself is greater than the external threat from China.

 

The difference is Israel is not led by the nutty dictatorships that many of its' Muslim neighbours are.

It was to a large extent Jimmy Carter that led to the Ayatollah Kohmeni.

Russia supplied Iran with the nuclear plant from which they will obtain the material to build the atom bomb.

This is black and white. Today, I do not have the time to debate history with a person of your low intellect and education.

 

And the question is why does an anti-American, Commie loving person, such as Foxrun work, for a USA capitalist corporation such as Ford?

Edited February 7, 2006 by Bluecon

[foxrun]

Oil prices up, small cars in Foxrun out. Like they say --it is a recession when your neighbour loses his job and a depression when you lose yours.

 

My crystal ball is not working today. however I think the internal threats from socialists such as yourself is greater than the external threat from China.

 

Russia supplied Iran with the nuclear plant from which they will obtain the material to build the atom bomb.

This is black and white. Today I do not have the time to debate history with a person of your low intellect and education.

 

And the question is why does an anti-American, Commie loving person, such as Foxrun work, for a USA capitalist corporation such as Ford?

 

Oh there is an original way of attacking me. Anti-American? like I said my wife has family all over the U.S. and I get along with them all, it is the government of the United States of America and its foriegn policy that I take exception to.

 

"Commie" wow I guess that is part of your high intellect. :blink:

 

And get over the Russian thing, the problem of nuclear arms in the middle east starts with the U.S./Isreal alliance.

 

As for history well the nuclear pandoras box was opened on August 6th 1945 by the U.S.A. and not even the Nazis can be blamed for that. I think it is time Americans started taking reponsibility for that decision.