Toyota Sweats U.S. Labor Costs

[unionj]

Yes, NAP was/is one of the plants building the best selling vehicle in the U.S., but it doesn't change the fact that there is too much production capacity for the F-150. There needs to be reductions. Lets compare the three plants that build it.

 

DTP: Freshly built, and in the hometown of the company. The golden child, as referred to by some around here. This, arguably, would be the very last to close, and for good reason. The tradition of the site it is built on, alongside of it being state of the art and within driving distance of numerous suppliers, not to mention the headquarters of the company.

 

KCAP: I don't know much about this plant, but it seems to me that with it being the sole assembly plant that supplies the Escape/Tribute/Mariner, that it has some security as long as they don't drop the ball with quality. Not to mention that it is centralized in the middle of the country. Ford could probably save money shipping trucks from here to the west coast states.

 

NAP: Don't know much about this plant either, except for the fact that it is out of the supply chain. There are no powertrain plants close, so everything had to be shipped there, and then the finished product had to be shipped back. It is on one side of the country, and not in a centralized location unlike KCAP.

 

In the end, you may not like the fact that it closed, hell I don't like it. That means Ford is selling fewer trucks, and making less profit, but in the end, just like with AAP and TCAP, economics was the key to it's closing. There is no conspiracy, no other explanation. If you chose to transfer to DTP, then congratulations. You will not be disappointed in that plant. If you chose to ride it out, or take a buyout, then there is no reason to be bitter. You chose the direction your life will take.

Tidbit for ya.

Kansas city not only builds the F150 but the Escape as well as the Mazda model.

The Company that builds the F150 frame offered to build a plant close to NAP but wanted a 10 year commitment. Also Ford built a huge facility across the street from NAP that was slated to build the new front ends, it is completed and empty. A brand new body shop in 03, the launch of the PN96 and P221 and a new automated storage facility behind paint in 05. The evidence is overwhelming that Ford did not want or plan to close NAP.

I agree it is too late now but the truth is out there and based on the evidence it is not being told, just a snow job.

[06StangAwesomecar]

Wonder if they spell better?

 

 

 

Wow! great reply. Was that spelled correctly.

[Harry Bennet]

You've been telling us that the reason US automakers aren't competetive is because our UAW wages are so out of line with the transplants, now here it is in black and white that Toyota workers in fact make more the UAW workers..... hmmmm

i'll answer this

I have simplified my beef to 'UAW wages are too expensive'

in a UAW shop there is already 5 to 9 % non-value workforce in committee men, appointed posts etc. WASTE

in a UAW shop nearly all produciton jobs , except transfer line-up, pay the same

this is grossly unfair, ppl swinging frames, pounding pistons, carrying A arms SHOULD be paid more than ppl in EZ spots like off line build up or rolls testing UNFAIR

the non-value, non-auto related positoins are grossly over paid, janitors, MP&L, drivers, etc

this last year I would expect every Toyota hourly to be working lots of over time , where the average UAW worker had 40 hr weeks and sowntime weeks

AND THATS the BEEF

Toyota is saying (among other things) 'we cannot keep paying all this overtime'

and that make sense, cuz a truck made on a 10 hr day is NOT worth anything more than than a truck built on a 8 hour day so what's the point of paying OT???

[Imawhosure]

True, but if you only need 20 hours of production a day, wouldn't you save money by having two shifts with 2 hours of overtime, vs paying another shift 8 hours with benefits, then having down weeks because you overproduced?

 

Pioneer,

 

I was always confused by the issue of how the domestics made more money when working overtime paying time and 1/2. The deal was, all the benefits packages to them were calculated on a 40hr workweek, and when overtime occured to produce more vehicles in demand, the benefits were already paid for, so the extra 1/2 time added was actually cheaper in total cost than the original 40 at straight time.

 

That being said, maybe Toyotys benefit package does not add up to the 1/2 time they must pay, so when they must produce extra vehicles they lose money........or rather shall I say; not make as large a profit.

 

And Harry, I must agree to disagree on some of your points.

 

Yes, the customer is only willing to pay for value added things on the car. Unfortunately, some of the non value added things must be there to add the value ones in the first place. Just because the customer doesn't see it does not mean it is not necessary. The objective should be to streamline the process to squeeze out as much non value added movement as possible, and that is generally where the UAW and Ford butt heads.

 

To me, (and it probably is only me but oh well) the conveyance of parts and the ability to have the right amount there and not be overstocked is Fords achilles heal. They pay for to many of one part, while having to stop because they don't have enough of the other........or enough of the other that are good........or something happened at the point of shipping, etc, etc.

 

While your logic of how jobs are paid and laid out has creedence, having a whole or part of a plant sit and wait cause parts are MIA at any compensation threshold, is just, bad, business.

 

I am well aware that the logic of their process is---------->that with a minimum amount of parts in the pipeline, if any are found defective that cuts down the loss of having to scrap the lot, thus savings. That makes great sense.

 

Unfortunately, if I was running this business, the first thing I would look at is the pipeline and why it underperforms on a regular basis, costing many more dollars than the theory can ever save. Eventually, Ford will design and build a huge winner in the market. If they continue to sit on their hands, the pipeline will haunt them when this time arrives!!!! They should address it now while they have the unwanted luxury of access build time on their hands. If not, there will be a load of unhappy execs in Dearborn when prodution is needed to ramp up to higher capacitys.

[mikem12]

the very reason the Japs moved their plants to the states is because the workers lin Japan demanded better pay and got it until it was not profitable for the companies.

 

China, Mexico, Korea and soon to be Vietnam are the low end labor markets. Eventually all the auto manufacures willl have plants standing by so they can shift production to the lowest bidder. And we (governement/WTO) keep going as if nothing is wrong.

 

Mike

 

 

Dav, as usual you are talking apples and oranges.

 

I am not going to debate with you the here for, how come; rather I am going to tell you as I would anyone else--------------->the UAW has been worthless for years, was fat, dumb, and happy. But if they figure out a way to unionize the offshore plants, your happiness will disappear.

 

You can say whatever you like........and I am sure you will, but just like us their pay has been escalating, now it is gonna take a hit. Nobody in their right mind likes it; even if a guy named davdog tries to explain what a wonderful thing it is!!!! They will consider retalliation.

 

If; and only IF the UAW gets their heads out of their asses........along with my compatriots at other UAW plants who see the light and demand the UAW does it at all costs, your scenario of the downward spiral will stop.

 

The only thing I want to know is-------->why when reading between the lines, do virtually all of us see you relish our race to the bottom? We have done nothing to you, and Toyota and Honda charge as much or more for their vehicles, and build them for less. How is that helping anyone save money?

 

Now, if you want to buy a Kia or hyundai, I can understand your point. But from where I am sitting, you would rather pay moooooore, much more, and have the company make huge profits, rather than have the employees make a pretty good wage.

 

Detroit was fat?????? I know you check stock prices and the wall street journal just by reading your posts.

 

If Detroit was fat according to you, then I guess this means Toyoty has gout!!!!!!!!!

 

Either that, or as we all surmise, you enjoy watching your home grown companys struggle, along with their employees get taken down a notch.

 

Hey by the way, are you over 5 foot 4? If not, it explains everything, lololololol!!!!!!!!!

[unionj]

Um, yeah. I've heard that.

Sorry misread, had TCAP on the brain!

[Bluecon]

uhh. . .sure but NOT the UAW

If I were at Toyota and just saw the UAW feed a big shit sandwich to its rank and file and then get fed the same sandwich at Toyota, sure I'd me hopping mad and I'd want a union, BUT NOT THE UAW!!!

There are a lot of unions out there, I'm sure quite a few of them can do a better job getting results for the rank file, more than this UAW

THis spilt in the AFL-CIO should have already produced another contender to organize Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. let's watch and see who it is

GM already has the IEW at some plants and it has worked very well for those plants.

[ebritt]

Tidbit for ya.

Kansas city not only builds the F150 but the Escape as well as the Mazda model.

The Company that builds the F150 frame offered to build a plant close to NAP but wanted a 10 year commitment. Also Ford built a huge facility across the street from NAP that was slated to build the new front ends, it is completed and empty. A brand new body shop in 03, the launch of the PN96 and P221 and a new automated storage facility behind paint in 05. The evidence is overwhelming that Ford did not want or plan to close NAP.

I agree it is too late now but the truth is out there and based on the evidence it is not being told, just a snow job.

would that have been Magna? My brother and dad work there in bowling green on the F-150 and explorer frames. I was there for a short time in the press department but left due to health insurance issues.

[dukka]

Fuck toyota, fuck all jap crap, fuck all korean trash, fuck all all chinese junks, fuck european wussies shit, fuck'em all, BUY THE REAL AMERICAN. Guessed who was the first landed on the moon, and who is making regular trip to space station, build the best fighter/bomber planes, pick up trucks, semi trucks, motorcyles (Harley Davidson), want me to go on and on and on and on???? and you think the jap,korean,chinese and the european can build better products than the US, give me a FUCKEN break. What the dumb fuck planet are you jap crap lovers comming from anyway?

 

What kind of TV do you own???, tools, microwave, cell phone, vcr/DVD/STERO. Look you fucking northern winter redneck you need a education on a global economy. I know it probably doesn't make sense to a 30 year outdated snow buried billy like yourself but maybe a trip to the local library for some hooked on phonics tapes on world economics would benefit your snow ridden ass.

[davdog]

What kind of TV do you own???, tools, microwave, cell phone, vcr/DVD/STERO. Look you fucking northern winter redneck you need a education on a global economy. I know it probably doesn't make sense to a 30 year outdated snow buried billy like yourself but maybe a trip to the local library for some hooked on phonics tapes on world economics would benefit your snow ridden ass.

 

Maybe if what's in this article comes to pass it will help you guys out. Me I'm just glad I can trade my Taurus wagon in for another taurus.

 

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/...t_toyota_f.html

[Harry Bennet]

Maybe if what's in this article comes to pass it will help you guys out. Me I'm just glad I can trade my Taurus wagon in for another taurus.

 

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/...t_toyota_f.html

IMO it was a mistake to drop the Taurus/Sable names

Whatever the Chiagao cars are named - they are HUGE -

maybe too big for the casual Taurus or Sable owner, and we could certainly lose their loyalty

But bringing back the names was the RIGHT thing to do

Camry and Accord look NOTHING like they did 15 years ago YET there is LOYALTY!!

As far as Toyota worrying about backlash, at first I thought it was patroninzing

But when you look at the BAD press Ford and Detroit get for Global warming, it time for BIG TOY to get a kicks in the shins

they shoulda never gone into NASCAR

[ebritt]

the very reason the Japs moved their plants to the states is because the workers lin Japan demanded better pay and got it until it was not profitable for the companies.

 

China, Mexico, Korea and soon to be Vietnam are the low end labor markets. Eventually all the auto manufacures willl have plants standing by so they can shift production to the lowest bidder. And we (governement/WTO) keep going as if nothing is wrong.

 

Mike

But we are the biggest market in the world, soon when nobody has a job nobody will buy new cars then all the companies that put their factories overseas wont have any customers.

[jak65]

You are absolutley right, we will no longer be a super power. Japan, South Korea and China have bought most of our debt, so we have to play by their rules. These countries could bankrupt our country because they hold our mortgage, so to speak, and if they ever demanded that our debt be paid in full, this country would be bankrupt. They would never do this of course, because by holding most of our debt, they can set their own rules. (Currency munipulation, Japan and South Korea not allowing us to build factories in their country and taxing the hell out our cars when they do let us export them to their country). As long as they are allowed to play be these rules and simple minded Americans keep lining up to buy their cars, our days as a super power are numbered. You cannot be a super power without a strong middle class and our middle class is dying.

 

 

How do you aquire new land without fighting a war? You buy up that countries debt and when you own everything you start to rule. North America will be known as the United States of Japan.

[mechanic]

I don't claim to be an economist, but on the face of it I think that it is meaningless how much the foreign investment in the us is. As long as we stay in the drivers seat with a strong military, we can call the shots. worse case scenario we could simply repudiate the debt and nationalize the foreign holdings.

 

I worry more about the decline of the middle class. I just don't see the service industries providing a decent living for everyone in this country. Goods have to be produced in order for an economy to thrive.

 

With the "global economy" I also worry that we are doomed to ever increasing lowering of labor rates until the whole world is equally poor.

Edited February 15, 2007 by mechanic

[Imawhosure]

I don't claim to be an economist, but on the face of it I think that it is meaningless how much the foreign investment in the us is. As long as we stay in the drivers seat with a strong military, we can call the shots. worse case scenario we could simply repudiate the debt and nationalize the foreign holdings.

 

I worry more about the decline of the middle class. I just don't see the service industries providing a decent living for everyone in this country. Goods have to be produced in order for an economy to thrive.

 

With the "global economy" I also worry that we are doomed to ever increasing lowering of labor rates until the whole world is equally poor.

 

Mechanic,

 

Your words hold truth.

 

The original objective of free trade..........the one not often mentioned..............was to stop wars by exporting jobs to stabilize regions. Also, to stop the influx of unwanted illegal guest from our Southern borders by giving them a chance at a decent life in their home country. The caveat was supposed to be that the price for these goods would also drop, meaning our standard of living would rise as life became cheaper.

 

What the designers of this system did not forsee was-------->the exodus of jobs as lower cost manufacturers came here.

 

Much has been said about the legacy costs of Ford and GM, and how they managed to do this to themselves.

 

I disagree.

 

These costs were put in place back when this nation demanded it. If any of these companys tried to NOT have them installed back then, the American consumer would have never purchased vehicles from the one that dared to try it.

 

While you can talk about PERCEIVED quality all you want and debate it; the legacy costs are there because Ford and GM were here to employ people when these benefits were the norm. Now many of the same consumers who are older scoff and want to know why these companys have such a thing.

 

I'll tell you why!!!!! Because American workers demanded it from their companys, and they were the consumers. Not just autoworkers, steel workers, airline workers, cement makers.........but most of America!!!!!!

 

The steelworkers have now been punished for doing Americas bidding, so have many a airline employees along with most of our manufacturing base. Now it is the autoworkers turn.

 

The difference???? The others filed bankruptcy, or went out of business waiting for the government to intercede for them doing what America demanded from them, and left them hanging in the breeze.

 

Understand, 9/11 and the price of oil put the airlines under, Germany put the steelworkers under, and Japan is putting the autos under. All enemies, or former enemies. Does anyone see a pattern here, lolol!!!!!!

 

And we thought we won WWII, and are ready to cut and run in Iraq. Whats the difference, even when we win, the regular American loses.

 

P.S. If you noticed on another thread, Toyoty has floated a trial balloon that its American workers make to much...........this while making 12 or 13 bill last year I might add.

 

It seems, they are setting it up so that when we get our cut, they can match and keep the advantage; probably plus one penny just to be sh***, and the race to the bottom for manufacturing continues. The bottom is much further down, and if something is not done, Ford and GM employees will never see it as they will already be long gone.

 

With everything already gone in manufacturing and the money it added to our economy not a topic for discussion for our foreign car freinds who are American, may I suggest we get wise and just try and defeat Chrysler. The last 2 standing will get the influx when one of these companys collapse, causing Americans to understand the economic destruction it causes to guys even like DAVDOG!!!! When they start hurting cause so much money has been sucked out at one time, they might consider a Ford or GM a wiser prospect for their own survival.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Imawhosure

[DukeNukem]

Who was it that changed the rules allowing the Communist Chinese to trade in our stock market?

[Imawhosure]

Who was it that changed the rules allowing the Communist Chinese to trade in our stock market?

 

I dunno Duke. I remember the debate, but I can't recall how/why it was allowed.

[06StangAwesomecar]

Mechanic,

 

Your words hold truth.

 

The original objective of free trade..........the one not often mentioned..............was to stop wars by exporting jobs to stabilize regions. Also, to stop the influx of unwanted illegal guest from our Southern borders by giving them a chance at a decent life in their home country. The caveat was supposed to be that the price for these goods would also drop, meaning our standard of living would rise as life became cheaper.

 

What the designers of this system did not forsee was-------->the exodus of jobs as lower cost manufacturers came here.

 

Much has been said about the legacy costs of Ford and GM, and how they managed to do this to themselves.

 

I disagree.

 

These costs were put in place back when this nation demanded it. If any of these companys tried to NOT have them installed back then, the American consumer would have never purchased vehicles from the one that dared to try it.

 

While you can talk about PERCEIVED quality all you want and debate it; the legacy costs are there because Ford and GM were here to employ people when these benefits were the norm. Now many of the same consumers who are older scoff and want to know why these companys have such a thing.

 

I'll tell you why!!!!! Because American workers demanded it from their companys, and they were the consumers. Not just autoworkers, steel workers, airline workers, cement makers.........but most of America!!!!!!

 

The steelworkers have now been punished for doing Americas bidding, so have many a airline employees along with most of our manufacturing base. Now it is the autoworkers turn.

 

The difference???? The others filed bankruptcy, or went out of business waiting for the government to intercede for them doing what America demanded from them, and left them hanging in the breeze.

 

Understand, 9/11 and the price of oil put the airlines under, Germany put the steelworkers under, and Japan is putting the autos under. All enemies, or former enemies. Does anyone see a pattern here, lolol!!!!!!

 

And we thought we won WWII, and are ready to cut and run in Iraq. Whats the difference, even when we win, the regular American loses.

 

P.S. If you noticed on another thread, Toyoty has floated a trial balloon that its American workers make to much...........this while making 12 or 13 bill last year I might add.

 

It seems, they are setting it up so that when we get our cut, they can match and keep the advantage; probably plus one penny just to be sh***, and the race to the bottom for manufacturing continues. The bottom is much further down, and if something is not done, Ford and GM employees will never see it as they will already be long gone.

 

With everything already gone in manufacturing and the money it added to our economy not a topic for discussion for our foreign car freinds who are American, may I suggest we get wise and just try and defeat Chrysler. The last 2 standing will get the influx when one of these companys collapse, causing Americans to understand the economic destruction it causes to guys even like DAVDOG!!!! When they start hurting cause so much money has been sucked out at one time, they might consider a Ford or GM a wiser prospect for their own survival.

 

 

 

 

Damn that was a great post. To bad more people dont see what you see. :beerchug: Any plans on taking gettelfingers spot..

[F250]

NAP: Don't know much about this plant either, except for the fact that it is out of the supply chain. There are no powertrain plants close, so everything had to be shipped there, and then the finished product had to be shipped back. It is on one side of the country, and not in a centralized location unlike KCAP.

 

NAP has been in the same location for 82 years of quality production, it took Ford executives 82 years to figure NAP was too far from Dearborn? Not likely.

 

Norfolk is 704 mles from Dearborn, Kansas City is 758 miles from Dearborn. The population (customers) on the eastern seaboard should greatly outnumber that of the mid-west. NAP sits at the best harbor on the east coast, at least the U.S.Navy thinks so. So shipping cost of completed trucks from NAP both to the east coast population and exported should offset some parts shipping cost.

[wixommm]

Location, quality, work attendence, size of plant, platform and capcity to flex has nothing to do with why ford closes plants. Wixom good location, big enough, flexed before flex was the in word in full assembly. Who knows exactly why they decide which plant is a better option to close before another? Besides $$$$. It is sad and very disruptive to many families. I wish the best for all!!!

[Trimdingman]

NAP has been in the same location for 82 years of quality production, it took Ford executives 82 years to figure NAP was too far from Dearborn? Not likely.

 

Norfolk is 704 mles from Dearborn, Kansas City is 758 miles from Dearborn. The population (customers) on the eastern seaboard should greatly outnumber that of the mid-west. NAP sits at the best harbor on the east coast, at least the U.S.Navy thinks so. So shipping cost of completed trucks from NAP both to the east coast population and exported should offset some parts shipping cost.

 

How far is NAP from the stamping plants and steel mills? The average shipping cost of a new vehicle, if you read the sticker is $750. If the vehicle is sold locally, it is virtually zero. If it is shipped to the other side of the country, it is double. It would probably cost more to ship a new vehicle from NAP to Los Angeles than the labor cost to assemble it. Location is the most important consideration. Perhaps NAP was originally intended for military production, but now that is impractical. I attended a meeting 15 or 20 years ago in which the speaker said that Ford was considering closing NAP because of its location. The fact that you lasted this long speaks volumes about the quality of your workforce. I wish you all well.

[DukeNukem]

How far is NAP from the stamping plants and steel mills? The average shipping cost of a new vehicle, if you read the sticker is $750. If the vehicle is sold locally, it is virtually zero. If it is shipped to the other side of the country, it is double. It would probably cost more to ship a new vehicle from NAP to Los Angeles than the labor cost to assemble it. Location is the most important consideration. Perhaps NAP was originally intended for military production, but now that is impractical. I attended a meeting 15 or 20 years ago in which the speaker said that Ford was considering closing NAP because of its location. The fact that you lasted this long speaks volumes about the quality of your workforce. I wish you all well.

Location had everything to do with it. No cost per unit, quality, nothing but location.

It has been proven many times that our Trucks cost no more to build, an example being our man hours per unit.

This closure was purely political and in the eyes of many was more the International's doing than Fords.

[mettech]

Here is the listing of the top companies in the world.

 

Forbs top 2000

 

I'm not sure how big of an impact it would have on the U.S. of A. econ if Ford and/or GM were to close.

 

It would be a shame and a poke in the eye, but it doesn't appear to be a show stopper.

 

Any thoughts.

[Imawhosure]

Here is the listing of the top companies in the world.

 

Forbs top 2000

 

I'm not sure how big of an impact it would have on the U.S. of A. econ if Ford and/or GM were to close.

 

It would be a shame and a poke in the eye, but it doesn't appear to be a show stopper.

 

Any thoughts.

 

It used to be, 1 in 3 jobs in this country were tied to the auto industry, today it is much less but still substantial.

 

That does not tell the whole story though!!!!!

 

Many a peoples income are tied to Ford and GM through suppliers, design, retirement, and the list goes on, and on. Since the products they sell are much more labor intensive than say, Microsoft, a collapse or near collapse would pull extremes amount of money out of the economy.............especially in areas where the jobs reside.

 

If you want to know just how the regular American would fare who has little or nothing to do with the auto industry, ask someone who knows the stockmarket and what the reaction would be if tommorrow GM or Ford filed for bankruptcy protection. (especially GM, but while a 75ft sunami wave is larger than a 40ft one, a 40ft one would still be devastating)

 

I know that this statement I am about to make is speculation, but if I WAS FORD AND GM, since we know that through currency manipulation and other methods, the Japs have a huge cost advantage..........I would put my eggs in one basket, go together and tell congress that YOU either give us a fair chance to compete in at LEAST our home market, or we WILL begin selling off our assets and let the economy go where it will because of it.

 

The people in power will no longer be there if anything remortely like this was to happen, because the economic carnage to These United States would be layed upon their shoulders, as the debate on WHY this was happening would be played and focused upun, instead of HOW TOYOTY HAS GREAT CARS!!! The reasons would be put out how they are able to do it, and it is the politicians edicts that allow them to do it.

 

A game of chicken?

 

No, a game of reality!!!!!! If the American people do not understand how it is happening, or why it is happening, not to mention how much it will hurt them after it is explained FINALLY by the media on a grand scale, then they will never survive anyway. Better to cut your loses in an UNFAIR game of poker, economics, or whatever, than try and play a hand stacked against you by the dealer........who happens to be your own government no less!!!!

 

For once, they need to stick together. (Ford and GM) If they do not, they will slowly choke them, one at a time.....to minimize the impact of their demise. Instead, if they dump the demise of themselves together on the media with a choice to America, they may yet get support, if it is explained to America while time is still available.

[mettech]

A large percent of lost jobs would be replaced with other car companies as they build new plants here in the USA. The impact would be minimal.

 

Things change. Just ask the Blacksmiths, the railroad workers, telephone operators, and the farmer. New jobs and technologies replace the old jobs.